Breaking Into Lifestyle and Adventure Sports Photography
It is with pleasure I welcome back teo the creative live photo week the breaking into lifestyle and adventure sports photography with lucas gilman lucas has is like when the top amazing adventure sports photographers around the world his images are published all the time in national geographic outside magazine is p magazine, espn dot com and many many more please welcome to creative live lucas gilman wait, wait uh really excited to be here have we see some shiny faces I've seen before in the audience is awesome thank you for that lovely introduction thank you for creative live for inviting me out always love seattle especially when it's not raining so that further do um give you a little background. Lucas gilman I live in colorado when I'm there I travel a couple hundred thousand miles a year generally and around the world to a lot of exotic destinations and we're going to go through today sort of taking through my path is a photographer ah, and we'll just sort of work through the proc...
ess and hopefully oh and still some some wisdom or some nuggets that you can take away and hopefully expand your photography and over this will inspire a little bit to go out and do some things that you really enjoy um as you see protections so I also shoot film as well a stills that's been a new thing recently for me and it really came about because I guess it's about five or six years ago, the first camera that nikon came out with with full hd video was a d seven thousand, and I had a self proposed project to go out and shoot a video had never shot video before thought hey, the camera couldn't do it. My dear slur can do it. I should be able to do it. So without that I went out and started basically shooting things. They were interesting to me, and we had this project where jesse coombs, an amazing athlete, invited me up to oregon, and our idea was to document the first ascent of a major water false. This is a ninety six foot waterfall, and this is all shot with the d seven thousand kind of amazing thing. A little bit of behind the scenes here. We got to go and basically do this really cool project. We took about a month this all to come together, but the actual shooting time was literally about a day and a half. So this is jesse he's on abaco falls here. This our camera set up got some still cameras, some dea solares, the d seven thousands, and this is really sums up for me right here. This is where this is the crux, right, ninety six foot waterfall and he's dropping and I'm thinking the whole time don't mess it up and you know, I'm relatively new to video at this point and it all worked out jesse walked away relatively unscathed I guess you could say and what I mean relatively he only had cracked ribs compressed long and a broken rotator cuff, so at the end of the day it was pretty exciting for me because I got to document it but also because it was something that I hadn't done before and that's really what I want to talk about today is going out and producing things that are new to you and is a creative photographer we to go out and we did produce things their new so you know we're going to go back and I have shot a lot of things in the europe shot the tour de france this olympic volleyball iron man the section kona no photo shop here this actually is all in camera serendipitously this is the smoke from the cannon that they fire for the mass start and I was lucky enough there was just a little whisper the blue away a little bit because I thought I was totally host so is one of the signs when things actually worked out in my favor the x games have shot the x games for years both winter and summer um just really exciting little known fact really afraid of heights which is funny is an adventure photographer, but I'm on liam made afraid of manmade heights so call it trust issues so this is actually at the coliseum and I've been working on getting this shot and I'm working for espn dot com here, so you figured we'd have carte blanc, right? But this took days of like no, no, you can't go up there on lee, the athletes and the judges and whatever also we worked and worked and worked to get this shot and you climb up this like two hundred fifty foot scaffolding that's blowing in the wind and it's moving by feet and I'm out there and I'm just going ok one more step focus, focus and the reason I did it is because I really wanted the shot and you know if you want to be a photographer, especially adventure photographer it's not always going to be easy, so you need to focus on what's important and what you want to produce it the end of the day and let that be your guide again always looking for new angles, high angles, low angles looking how light and shadow play together and just try to make graphic pictures because, you know, for me I'm not a news photographer I'm looking to produce images which have a little bit of staying power because you know, I don't want them to be news today and gone tomorrow, I want them to be something that people will look at over and over and, you know, have sort of a shelf life, I guess you could say because at the end of day I'm a content provider and how I make a living is producing content that hopefully people by whether it's magazines or advertisements and so on and so forth also shed a lot for red bull. I love red bull, they're great company. When they decide to do something, they go all out and it's great to work with them the sex of their races, which unfortunately do anymore, but really fun, exciting events and, you know, it's, just one of those things going out, finding unique angle and producing something that will work in long term. I shot the kentucky derby for six years in a row for espn magazine on my favorite events all time love the event, and over the years I wanted to shoot a special shot. This one is on the back side with a six hundred millimeter to ex converter, and I went back there with the idea of shooting this head on shot, so I've got a twelve hundred millimeter lens right on about this point, this is a nikon d two x and so twelve millimeter. But I wanted there to be movement, right? Because we've all seen that head on shot, but I want to be have that movement in hopes, so I went back there in practice for a whole day figure out what's the slower shutter speed I can be at and keep the horses sharpe but then have the movement in the hood so eventually figured out is about sixty eighth of a second, so it took all day, but I walked away with something that was very interesting and is a photographer and filmmaker I'd rather go out on any given day and produce one image, which I'm going to be proud of, which will have long lasting staying power is opposed to one hundred or a thousand, which you're just like, ok, this shot here the shot took four years, four years to get this shot. So four years prior to the shot I went and I asked the kentucky derby, the organizers have said I want to put a remote camera above the finish line and they said absolutely not the next year I came back, I'd like to put a road camera over the finish line absolutely not well, next year the thirty year next year come back, make sure you have your paperwork in order and I said, well, what do I need? They said, well, a fifty million dollars foreign policy said fifty million and s I called espn said, hey, I can do this really cool shot you guys have an insurance policy of bond for fifty million dollars and I said, oh, actually we've got warned that so yeah go ahead so after four years trying to get this shot, this is actually barbaro ah and he won historically by more links in in current history so it's actually historic photo as well. So I go there and they said I'll go meet john at the end of the whatever and he'll give you you know, I think they'll be like this ceremony a guard's going up the top john's like here the keys last door on the left all the way the top climb up there by myself setting up this camera and I'm like this took four years for me to come here by myself I probably couldn't just giving somebody a twenty five bucks I'm kind of with the keys anyway, but the moral of the story is if you want something, go and get it love the derby all the color, the behind the scenes, the sunrise you know, sessions really cool uh this is tour of california shot a lot of cycling about the tour de france a few times and just always looking for something new whether it's a scenic or a tight shot doing a pan blur and making it just sort of all work together. This section iron man in peru. This is the thirtieth of a second pan and an angle is she went by. So just looking for camera techniques. Something little separate me from the pack because face it, there's a lot of photographers out there. The cameras these days come out of the box. They're great before you know when I started actually shot film not to date myself too much here, but start in the dark room back in the day. You need to know how to expose film and know what emanuel focus, right? This is sort of what separated you from all the other photographers today. Out of the box. The camera takes amazing pictures that exposes for you and also does auto focus for you so there's. Nothing to think about. So in order to separate yourself, you have to use of what is probably the most powerful thing in your camera box or your camera bag, which would be your mind. So thinking ahead and producing images like this which are graphic and interesting, and putting yourself in the right position at the right time will hopefully separates you from other photographers and give you a leg up big sur, california. Long exposure, this is about a three second exposure to get the motion of the water. And if any of you turn in earlier, we did a lot of talking about movement in water and long exposures inversely this shot twenty five hundredth of a second, every water droplet is frozen, sharp and tech. In addition, I used technology used ellen chrome rangers, as well as pocket wizards with a new technology called hyper sink hyper sink allows you to shoot it faster than what was typically the flash think speed to fifteen seconds, so being able to use that technology, all of a sudden, I'm able to produce an image which I couldn't have produced before. So by using that technology, hopefully again, separating myself from it, someone else is brazil. This is called el diablo, a new rio de janeiro got up early, and just by happenstance got a really nice shot of this guy, and he ran over to me and I don't speak portuguese, where brazilian, portuguese, and I think it was the best ride of his life didn't know the guy just happen to be out there, you know, shooting some things, and he thought the louder he talked in, the faster he talked to me, that I would understand exactly what he was saying, so I think he was saying that's, the best ride I've ever had and I have the photo is what I'm thinking is saying, but I'm like trying to say, look, I don't speak english. Finally, he, like, came back and wrote his email address on the paper, and I said in the image, and then he wrote back in brazilian again, saying, I'm like, sorry still don't speak brazilian, but, you know, here's the picture again, long exposures, fast shutter speeds for water, long exposures for water, making visually different pictures. We'll give you a leg up on the competition this is, lago yelled show in chile, this is actually a fifteen second exposure, so I use what's called the variable andy filter, which you'll hear we talk a lot about, and I'll go ahead and show you how this works. Um, it's great for video as well, and so if you can see this, it goes from dark to light and I'm able to manually set how much light is going through my lens. So by doing that, I could make a very dark situation, therefore giving me of much longer exposure, which in video helps a lot to make, you know, not super fast shutter speeds and make it look smoother but allows me also to make images like this, which are very long. In the middle of the day, the golden hour I talk a lot about this and then the workshops I'd teach going out and putting yourself in that position and making something interesting this is in jackson hole grand teton national park went out with an athlete, you know, right before sunset and just started, you know, working it, working it, putting yourself in that position and making interesting pictures. Can jackson hole blacktail butte thinking about key times in the season planning ahead, putting on your calendar? These are things which will help you differentiate yourself again. So for instance, key seasons meaning middle of winter when the snow is great like dry powder, the peak of the fall colors spring when the flowers have come out and also, you know, basically any time during the year when there is something eventful with the weather pattern, you know, it could be big waves in california aligning yourself and knowing what those things are and knowing when they happen on the calendar and having a long term projection of what you can produce and what you can do instead of being like one of my shooting this week but thinking six months ahead or a year ahead, a lot of these things take time to come from to fruition, um the other thing to think about that in that same vein if you want to work for magazines, you go out and you shoot fall colors and climbing, you go back and you submit that to that magazine that you think you'll be interested, they're not going to be interested. Why their production cycle they're already thinking about summer their fallen issues have already been done for months, so to find out the production schedule of any magazine that you want to work with the easiest thing to do call the front desk, say, when do you publish? When is your fall catalog? Go to print, and then you can also find submissions as well. So cater your submissions according to the publication cycle because you could have the best fall picture in the world, but it could be dated by next year. So I know that when you shoot it now that probably early summer that's when those magazines are going to be looking for those things. So you know, there's a lot of planning involved in strategy as well using technology this is that pride. The biggest thing you can do to separate yourself technology is our friend doing a lot of research doing, you know, whether using google or otherwise, and or just using your camera to make better pictures, for instance, this picture here this picture was the first image ever run is a two page spread in sports illustrated at that point this is a time that was a real big debate about film and digital and people are saying yeah, digital is not that good you know, films here to stay it will never be as good as film because they'll never have enough megapixels blah, blah, blah so I took this at the olympic training center with some lights in colorado springs, colorado and send it to the director of photography in sports illustrated and said, hey, digital looks pretty good to me thinking it was more of a just in anything because every was talking about how bad digital was and they ended up running it is a two page spread in leading off, so by using that technology leveraging yourself putting yourself out there nothing ventured, nothing gained, you're going to be able to make more sales, build more relationships and hopefully be more successful yeah so how do we get started? We have to find our first season for me I grew up in colorado back country skiing being outdoors. So for me I find that first season was skiing so after I went to school to be a writer university colorado boulder we want to be a writer and figured out a way to, you know there was way too much work and, you know, writing just wasn't that much fun found that sort of insured a photojournalism class works the denver post columbine happened decided no more death and destruction move to jackson hole went back to my roots and started building my portfolio you know people were create saying you're crazy you've got a good job the denver post big big newspaper I'm saying woman investing myself to produce something I want to produce because what was happening with newspapers is quantity over quality and my focus was to produce quality over quantity so by going and investing in myself going out and producing personal projects and it all starts with building a relationship with an athlete whether you're shooting stand up paddleboarding kayaking back country skiing, mountain biking, skateboarding we go all day and talk about all there for sports but what it takes is you as a photographer finding something you enjoy photographing because at the end of the day what you're passionate about will show in your work this's in uh grand targhee absolutely amazing area little sidebar on this this was the safest picture for the safest area to shoot all day and people look at this thing the safest thing to do all day this they're like that's like an eighty foot or you're crazy and I'm like well yeah the avalanche danger was like extreme though so we figured if the ablest went anywhere he only get married like a couple feet probably so in this situation we you know we limited the possible risks by doing something interesting so again going out producing content and having a goal to build a portfolio right that's the first step, go out, find a sport, find something you're passionate about become very good at that learned the nuances of the sport learn who the players are, learn what you know the best what works? What doesn't so I submitted my first you know, after the first season of living, jackson hole submitted my first images to powder magazine you know, I thought I had some banger images I'm going to take this industry by a storm and I get a nice note back from the photo editor he's like, yo, you got some good stuff, you know, but the pictures of the guy rolling the windows down technical term, a skiing when they're going like this when they go off the cliff, we will never publish those and I go, oh, it all came together in that one moment I need to find better athletes because I was going out with my buddies. I thought there are great pictures, but technically they weren't so, but I learned that one little nuance I learned a lot about the way the industry was going, so continue to grow so I get a glass of water here and trying to make things a little different, so bringing lights into skiing because ski photography's generally all available like all outdoor all action and bringing lights in and trying to you know, make something a little different was the first step and trying to you know, step outside of that box do we have any questions on the internet yet by any chance actually lucas and the internet is quiet which never happened never really happens and the on ly time that happens is because they're hanging on your every word that I could not know hey do you have any questions in the audience so far as faras okay, cool I want to make sure I'm not going too fast or are not covering anything in depth that you guys want to know that because obviously I'm here for you and I want to make sure you guys get is much as possible out of this so so the first anti is push your gear well I mean push your gear I don't mean go out leave it in a rainstorm and let it get waterlogged and see how much it can take I mean figure out what exactly are the strength of your equipment and that goes for a point shoot camera a dslr any lens you would have figure out what the strengths of your gear are so about oh what year was it when the d three came out probably six or seven years ago not sure the exact timing but the nikon d three came out really excited it was the first camera tohave really good high I esso which means obviously you know very sensitive sensor with very low noise it was the first camera in any category toe have that function so the first thing a lot of people saying well why would I ever want to shoot it like I s o sixty four hundred I'd never need to I shoot it I s o four hundred eight hundred max and I said well because if you shoot a sixty four hundred just think of the possibilities and what are the possibilities like well for instance this picture before that would not have been possible why well I wanted to have a star starburst or star pin right here this is a fish islands in order to do that I had to be f sixteen or higher very small aperture that's what makes the sun do that well what happens when you have a very small aperture very little light very slow shutter speed so in order to have a shutter speed fast enough twenty five hundredth of a second to freeze this guy who's blowing off this cliff here I had to be like I s o sixty four hundred f sixteen twenty five hundred of a second so before this this image would not have been possible so this open all kinds of things I'm thinking oh wow I can shoot after the sun goes down you know it's like all kinds of possibilities so knowing what your camera can do and doing a little research will go a long way also like to shoot really graphic things always looking for shops alight looking for things subtleties, shapes, colors lack of color and these are things which need a slow down you need to think you go ok it may not be the guy dropped off one hundred foot cliff but what is my background for instance here this background here excuse me this background here pretty boring pretty simple test shot oh look at those shouts the light coming through your pretty cool skier comes through the shaft light all of a sudden we have a very simple, clean dynamic image which is great and you know why that's great because advertisers loved put text on photos they love to put photos and put text somewhere on the photo. So now all of a sudden I've got all this space for text it's not going to ruin my photo but it's like it all works together so I'm putting myself in the best possible position to make good images that will sell again shooting after the sun went down d three amazing low light capabilities going out and leveraging that in the best possible way bad weather does make for good images a lot of photographers oh it's snowing it's raining yeah, I'm not going to shoot today that's the day that I go out because that's the day that something special probably happened and it's just those sort of simple things like this image here it's completely monochromatic right? This is a white out white out conditions snowstorm but one splash of color draws all your attention to him doesn't hurt that he's wearing patagonia coat also sponsored by head skis lifelink polls so all of a sudden this shot has three potential clients just because I went out and shot something on a day when everybody else is probably drinking beer in the pub so by doing those things, those small things hopefully in the long run that makes a lot of you know, big differences finding new angles again same thing is the last shot finding something graphic producing something different this ran is an ad for head you know, knowing the players so when I say knowing the players it's not necessarily all of the athletes but it's also all of the potential clients so if we're to go through this shot we've got head skis patagonia coat jacket, lifelink polls and I think he's got a dick kind pack so we've already got five potential clients do they need to know me? You know, all I need to know is where to send those images and where do you find out where this in those images it's called the outdoor retailer show out to a retailer show in salt lake city for summer sports winter sports it's the s a or snow industry associates and that's in denver, colorado those two times a year every main your major manufacturer in the world whether it be north face patagonia head skis life you know you could go on and on and on it is a trade show for all outdoor gear you will be able to find any client anywhere and at least make an introduction but one thing I will say in that same vein make sure you crawl before you walk and walk before you run you only have one chance to make a first impression so build up your portfolio to the point where you feel comfortable that you have street credibility and that you know that your shots they're not rolling down the windows and that you have shots which work in the industry you're shooting cardiac cave jackson hole wyoming don't know why they call it that sort of a heart stopper though this is a double back flip trevor hyatt great athlete you know going out and putting yourself in these situations this is something where we're going from making a photo or from taking a photo to making a photo there's a huge collaboration, huge collaboration with athletes and the athletes are the life blood being an adventure photographer because the athletes are the ones who make you look good the better the athlete the better the picture the better the photographer your the better athletes you'll be able to work with question is how do you find these athletes? Well, on a very low level, go to your local ski shop up, go to your local ari, I could you look a climbing shop and say, hey, is there anybody here? It was a great climber, a great steer looking to do some photos, art start building that network because it's a small industry when you get to a certain point, everybody knows everybody. So by building those, you know, building those bridges, getting those introductions, learning from the people you're piers, I guess you could say this is what helps you get that next job go on the next trip and starts building your portfolio out in that same vein, being a good person, not burning those bridges, you have to remember that the other day it is a small industry, because eventually if you burn enough bridges, you're an island and you're not gonna have any work because you're not gonna have the athletes to work with and not having content to provide your clients. So, you know, one thing I could say is just make sure up front when you're working with athletes, make sure that all of the formalities are worked out in advance, so if you want to use these pictures commercially, make sure they know that make sure they sign a model release I can't stress that enough if you want to use a picture commercially in a still sense or an emotion video, you need to get a release, you need them to sign off and say, I understand that you're going to be using these pictures for commercial purposes sometimes it works out great because, for instance, this is trevor hyatt started shooting with him in jackson hole, he didn't really have any sponsors all of a sudden patting on your picks him up like, oh, you've got all these great shots, you're great athletes, so it was a win win. I'm getting published in patagonia, he's getting a sponsorship out of the deal and we're building and fostering those relationships to build, you know, hopefully portfolios for both of us a little side note, this is jackson hole, granite canyon and I got a call, I guess after the patagonia catalog came out years ago is a two page spread in a catalog and it was even shin are the founder of patagonia, he said, I'd love to have this picture on my wall and I knew he's he lives in jackson hole and I was totally flattered and I was like, well, I really you know, I'm the best photographer in the world even shin guard wants my photo on his wall and I'm like, oh, well, what do you like about the photo he's like oh well, you see this little cabin down in the bottom left goes that's my cabin I think that's pretty cool I can see my house in the picture so like go from being like on the best retire from the world like, oh, he just likes to shop for that to show where his house is in a valley awesome so you know, kind of cool kind of humbling, you know, so on and so forth so he found your first season you found your athletes time to find a second season because in my case it doesn't snow your own unless you live in canada but we don't live in candidate right? So finding a second season I was lucky enough to have some people say, hey, you want to go to costa rica? We're doing a kayaking shoot and I said awesome they said you kayaking and said no but aiken bush like so finding those spots and being lucky is part of, you know, part of the business. So we went to costa rica made some amazing pictures fell in love the kayaking wasn't really a kayaker but the color of the boats, the moving water all of this comes together to make some really special imagery shooting sequences sequences are really interesting and very simple to do to do these sequences basically another camera shoot eight frames a second ten frames a second five frames a second is all you'll ever need that for some reason in a kayaking world otherwise if there's too many they stack on top of each other and there's too many shots so five frames a second that's the that's the golden number and machine this for years so five frames a second put the camera on tripod as they go down pre focus kid everything dialed up they're not coming at you so you don't need to refocus on anything they're coming in a plane up to down take those shots and basically in post processing you composite them and photo shop racing the layer under layer under layers so it actually shows exactly how I think they went down the waterfall so knowing the players going back to that building these relationships you know I'm gonna hound on this building the relationships with the athletes is your golden ticket to go into really cool places it's imperative to know the players and to know you know what's going on in the industry this is, uh lower louis falls in washington evan garcia great guy up and comer done some of the craziest things in the world it's just amazing what these guys go out and put their bodies through day in and day out this is ben sticks very dropping lower mason falls it's about an eighty footer outside of ash in idaho and in kayaking after eighty feet it basically becomes a much risk your opposition and for some reason that's a sort of magic number so after eighty feet if these guys don't land correctly which means basically like a pencil dropping in the water they land flat there probably to break their back they go over the handlebars they could break their neck so that's a long way to fall think of it eighty feet how many stories up the building is that a lot? So these guys they're risking their lives and their trusting use a photographer or filmmaker to bring back the goods so when I say trust it's a two way street you know and at the end of the day you're a member of the team you're a member of that team for safe the first and to make the images second because if something goes wrong you're a person first in a photographer second, this is jesse coombs from the video you guys saw and this is about his perfect line is you can get right I mean, he went straight in this is another one of these sequences and you can see he did everything right and he still walked away with a compressed long cracked ribs you know, kind of crazy so a lot of repercussions jesse again, this is raw forties. This is in vera cruz mexico as is this so this is a big story I did for men's journal in two thousand six and this is the first complete descent of the rio also sacre river and I'm their bush walking through the jungle with a local guide and you know we're getting all these shots beautiful river pristine jungle and we hear like all these gunshots in the jungle and I'm like what's going on so vera cruz mexico a lot of narcotics trafficking going on like not super safe and I asked my guide I'm like, hey dude, are we all right? You know I keep hearing these gunshots is like yeah, yeah I just don't cross the river of the narcotics traffickers had never come to this size so we're fine I'm like yeah I feel a lot better known that so put yourself in those situations right? Put yourself in that situation to succeed whether that's getting up early getting the good light meeting the right people working harder than everybody else and things will work out rush sturgis ninety five footer vera cruz mexico that same trip putting yourself in that situation knowing how your gear will perform in those situations testing it before you go you don't just show up to mexico on a first does that and be like I never shot a waterfall before you know like go out find out how your gear performs in wet conditions in dry conditions if any lenses have any focusing issues no your equipment inside and out, you'll bet have much better success, ben six very same same situation here finding a higher angle, and this is ah, eric jackson, olympic kayaker, and this is just a grab shot he's basically see launching, which is basically launching off a bridge in about thirty feet into flatwater and just a fish I basically as he went off off the edge, so, you know, continue looking for those gems. I guess you could say something is going to be different from things that you've seen every day staying organized and having a backup strategy, so this is going to do we're going to turn a little bit to the business side of it, and I can't stress this enough, you know it is it seems glamorous to go out and take pictures of guys hooking themselves off cliffs and dropping big waterfalls and doing all this, but without having a consistent plan and what you're going to do with that data, you may as well not even leave the house because eventually it will happen and you will lose clients and you will lose athletes if you're not consistent and have the backup strategy, so my strategy is I go and I shoot, and I only choose what I feel like is the best equipment like nikon cameras and sanders cards the sanders cars why? Because they test them to a higher standard than anybody else I spend hours, months, years of time, energy setting these things up I'm not going to go with some got great card or camera because at the end the day my time is valuable, so I mean, I put myself in this situation I want to make sure that I have everything in a row my ducks in a row so I go out, I shoot all day, we're going to go in the next life look a white slide shoot all day, right? Filling up cards and I guess it's not out here philip philip all these cards right? So I've got all these cars at the end of the day, the first thing I do at the end of the day as I go back to my laptop and I make two copies of everything so I've got my cards and they go to to drive simultaneously so I've got two copies why would I want two coffees? Well, actually, now I've got three copies because I've got a compact flash card or sd card from there I then go these two drives or these for the evolution siri's drives their new um and the reason I do that is because now that I have three copies aiken geographically separate the data I keep one give one to somebody else in the team my assistant and basically then for instance my room gets robbed all my gear is gone at least I walk away with the data somebody else had so by having that consistency that backup strategy that plan it allows me to first of all get some sleep at night because there's a lot of pressure right? I got the athletes who are like don't mess it up because they're like their other risking their life you got the client who's like well if you don't bring back the good as you're probably not gonna get paid and we'll probably ever hire you again so by having that you're allowing yourself to you know being that position where you're being consistent if you want to improve your photography it's very simple as some consistent factors into it whether that's that you use specific lenses that you're really good at using or making sure your exposures are always spot on but by doing the things consistently and not just being like, well, I don't know why I didn't really work out you'll put yourself in a better place follow your dreams so I'm going to the class water here I'm very dry nobody told me it was not going to reining in seattle follow your dreams there's going to be times in your career where you're going to have opportunities and you're not going to know if it's a good decision or not, call it a crossroads and you have to go with your gut and all the situations. For me. It was india. I got asked to go on a trip to india and I wasn't quite sure if I was up to the task because we were going to be going deeper and farther into the middle of nowhere the night ever gone before now, the trip changed exponentially once we got there due to some issues. But I made that decision. It always been a dream of mine to go to india and to go on an expedition and documents something really cool. You know, at the end of day, you have to you have to have trust in yourself. Things will work out. Trust in your abilities is photographer, trust in your abilities as a business person, and trust in your abilities as a person in general, to be able to go out and hackett these situations. So we went to india. We traveled eight hours plus a day for five days straight to get to this location, which is the seeing river, which is our shawl production into your way up in the middle of nowhere trying to that border. And it was the most magnificent body of water had ever seen this awkward marine blue craziness, thes these waves here his ways are actually twenty feet tall. I'm not sure if you can see it, but those air little kayaks right there, there's little those little spots, those attacks. So these guys are going and doing the craziest stuff and I'm just lucky to be able to document the other edition of this big white water is there it's what they call holes so rafa, the athlete that we saw earlier, he actually got sucked down at one point but three hundred yards underwater and pop back up and it's in a split second. I didn't even know it happened goes well, it was just dark and all of a sudden I was back up. So knowing the possible stresses and or, you know, things that are gonna happen on these on these trips and being prepared to deal with, um, having an exit strategy, whether you have a sat phone, whether you have, you know, an embassy that you know is going to be able to help you out, you know, putting yourself in those positions, make sure that you have a backup plan again. We talked about my fear of heights manmade heights so here we are, milne o'er this bridge right here, by the way, made out of one hundred percent natural materials, no metal it's, all bamboo and mines and I really want the shot so we're on the other side and I see I'm like, oh yeah, that'd be awesome, I'll get him coming across the river so you can see these guys here this is like the average size local, like ninety eight pounds soaking what about this tall? But I'm like, I want to go and get this shot, so I'm going across the bridges, bridges swaying and I'm like, get the shot hit the shot and I'm like, you know, six foot, two hundred plus pounds of kind of a big guy, so I run across the bridge run is I'm like, you know, sweating bullets to get there and I finally get across and I'm getting the shots I'm like, this is awesome get the shots the next day we come by, they're replacing all the slats in the bridge, so not only was I pried the largest person ever to walk across the bridge, I went across the bridge on the last day that they were actually, you know, it was in use, I guess you could say so I guess I got lucky that I didn't fall through and we were the were actually first westerners they'd ever seen in this village they had no running, no running water, no power, absolute middle of nowhere they could not believe people would get on this river because to them, this river is death, you get out there, you're swept away, you're gone so kind of cool. The other thing I really like about adventure photography is you're an active participant, you get to go to these really cool places and do these things to get this shot I got out of the car and let them drive across, because again, this is a natural bridge, but, you know, being in those positions and doing things that are really cool allows you to sort of expand your horizons and learn a lot of interesting things again, this is a cnn river, absolutely beautiful, beautiful, so we're gonna go back to the relationship thing and, you know, you probably talked about relationships. This is not a counseling session, but I can't go into it enough that really these relationships, these fledgling things, that you, whether you meet them into the outdoor retailer, show where ari I or the local climbing shop or they're the local pro by putting yourself out there and trying to make these connections it's kind of like speed dating, right? You're out there trying to, like, make these connections with athletes because at the end of the day, you both have a common goal, what is that goal? They want to be published? They want to look cool for their sponsors and they want to go and cool trips. What are your goals? You want to be published? You want to get paid and you want to go on cool trips, so ideally basically you have the same goals. Now what you need to remember is you need to make sure that you're both on the same page, right? It's like that thing, many women don't talk the same well, photographer zach athletes don't always talk the same either, so making sure you're both on the same page and that you're understanding what their go their goals are and what they need out of the relationship and making them aware of what you need. Other relationship that being said is a photographer and this his personal thing, I will never, ever pushing athlete to do something that they're not comfortable doing the first sign that they're not into it. Cool, let's walk away and I've actually talked to athletes out of doing things because I didn't feel like it was safe. Why? Because like I said, you're a person first and your photographer second, and I've never had anybody go down on my watch we've had injuries but no death, and at the end of the day I'd rather sleep well knowing. I've always been a good person and knowing that I've always taken care of my athletes, and you know what? The athletes know that if you know that you've got their interests hit hard as well, they're going to try to please you and perform the best they can because they care about you as well, and they want you to be happy, so this is actually the second largest waterfall ever run big banana falls, bear cruz, mexico and this took four years to come together. So you saw those pictures, the first ascent of the rio also seka we found this waterfall on that trip every looked at and said it'll never be run, but raw forties, the athlete in the shot said, I think it's good to go someday, so for four years in a row, we came back waiting for the conditions to be perfect, and by building that trust and having that relationship with the athlete, who did he call? He called me, which it could have not ever happened, but because I was there to document this, rafa was it the international spotlight? Second largest waterfall actually was the largest of that point. We were on good morning america, the today show an msnbc all in about two weeks time, so by doing those small things building those relationships, taking care of the people who take care of you not only that he gets a document that something really cool but my stock is a photographer for went up exponentially so it's those little things steve fisher, this is actually one hundred percent out of the camera no photo shop involved here it's a little sort of an interesting thing. These air soap bubbles in the water. This is called the black river in northern michigan and what happens is fatty acids, which are in leaves and bark and such they fall in the water and they break down and they get filmed up in waterfalls and when they get to this lock water, they basically pull up and, you know, I've seen this going down the river and I was hiking down the river and we were sort of finishing up last light of day. You can see where the shadow is down here, so you know, the sun's way over here on this other side, last light of day, it all comes together. These air, those moments is a photographer or a filmmaker, you're just you're waiting for they don't happen very often, but being ready, knowing how your gear works and putting yourself in those good situations will allow you to walk away with great pictures because think about it this happens and I blow the exposure would I be kicking myself forever would would he be happy with me? No so half of this is you know, as a photographer we almost have to go out and train like one athlete go out and practice our camera skills put ourselves in situations which may be uncomfortable but by going out and practicing those skills and not just showing up being like ok, I'm ready to take pictures oh that didn't work out why didn't work out well by going through this in practicing these skills will allow you to be able to go out and produce images and all kinds of situations so for instance this this all black and white are cameras try to go to middle grade if I did just complete auto exposure on this he's going to be like crispy critter because it sees all this black and all the sudden he's going to like way over I suppose so knowing that because I've been in situations like that before knowing that technique allowed me to be able to expose for that very quickly and walk away with that image doggett being persistent you have to want it there's a lot of other photographers out there that want your job they want my job they want to be in this position they want to take the picture of rafa going off one hundred thirty five thirty foot waterfall they want that so you need to be dog id and persistent how much? So I mean, I wouldn't say put yourself in harm's way, but you know, for instance, this picture came out great really happy in this picture, but lock of falls this here ah is the columbia river gorge, one hundred one foot tall waterfall, this beautiful green wall here, a wall of poison out green death I am so allergic deploy the poison oak. It is not even funny, but I wanted this angle because this is the perfect framing of this waterfall, and this to me was the angle. What did I do? Improvise bill, basically calling a mini haz mat suits, gaffer tape, rubber gloves, goggles? Why? Because I wanted to be in this spot to make this picture, you have to want it because there's somebody just down the street who probably wants it almost as much as you need to want it just that much more because these situations don't happen every day where somebody jumps off one hundred foot waterfall or in the mountain biking world. Somebody you know breaks a record you to be ready for those things to happen and ready to be in that position and ready with your camera skills to be able to make everything work so this is a typical dear layout forays, stills and or video shoot for may doesn't look like a lot of gear yeah yeah it is a lot of year three hundred two eight nine course seventy two two hundred seventeen thirty five fifty millimeter twenty four one four level you know I could go on and on plus all the video here we don't need to have all this gear there's a few pieces of gear that are important to have first of all is a photographer trying to break into the industry you don't need to go on by every lens under the sun I recommend you go out to get one body one body like for instance a d eight hundred eighty six hundred would be what I would start out with the six hundred things like twelve hundred dollars as far as an entry level camera amazing photos the first lens that I would get twenty four to seventy millimeters zoom great great range allows you wide angle a little bit of telephoto you could shoot skiing kayaking mountain biking all kinds of stuff lens is kind of expensive right well you know we don't always have the budget but prime lenses are very reasonable and easy to attain for instance this fifty millimeter one point eight I think it's about two hundred ten dollars retail so very fast lens lots of light very good price point another one eighty five millimeter like three fifty three nine nine ish one point eight so you don't necessarily have to go out and buy a two thousand dollars lands by a couple of lenses get comfortable with those don't get so enamored with the gear just being like oh, I want all this stuff no why you need to know need the stuff and why you need that stuff for specific situations francis I have a fish I love it I use it about twice here. Why? Because using more than that it looks to start like all your retarded he looks the same. So knowing the specific times that that lens is useful when that lens is not useful I then allow myself to use that for calling a special occasion but there's some some great lenses like I said eighty five one eight, fifty one eight, twenty four to seventy if I were going to get a zoom lens, probably a seventy two, two hundred would be the best one for me because with a twenty four to seventy nick or twenty four to seventy seven to two hundred, those two lenses cover me for ninety nine percent of everything. So if I was going to start out, I wanted by two lenses. I'm like, I'm really going to go out I want to be a professional I want them to be you know and the reason you buy those lenses as opposed to one is four, five or five six those are both have to wait all the way through therefore, very large amateur allows you to shoot in all kinds of conditions that very fast shutter speeds, so those were the two ones is that I would would also would also get so I also, if you guys tune in earlier shoot compact cameras, a lot of the times, um, you could make amazing images with these cameras. For instance, this image raw forties, this was shot in eighty one hundred, so it doesn't always need to be the top of the line professional camera, go out and figure out how that camera performs a w one hundred does a great job, doesn't do a great job in every single, you know, every single thing, maybe not, but in this position, with lots of light, you could make amazing images, so be prepared, be prepared like the boy scouts, right? We're going to shoot, we need to know what the possibilities are, and I'm sorry I'm going to repeat the story because I think it's important. So she was a shoot with the aid, every one hundred outside magazine and nine I kind of asked me to go and do a shoot, they said kayaking or something, and so I called roth of my buddy and said, hey, roth aware. Where you going to go so we're going to shop us mexico I said oh awesome and I said you're not worried about this app it east is like oh no this up pieces of fine and this apathy says they're rebels which basically um want to have their own state in mexico and they just want to have nothing to do with the government so we're cruising along and right after I talk took this shot and there's no photo shop down on this by the way that this is the water this is aguas will river it's the natural color super crazy turn on there's like twenty dudes with machetes behind me and I'm like with my guide and they start yelling at me like it's taught us and he knows the saudis and us and already know that they don't like americans because the cia tried to help mexican government eradicate them in the eighties long story short is you don't want to be an american in the middle of nowhere in the jungle was apathy stas so you know like soy to canada and they're like sort of you know it's like sort of canada and they're like kept looking at me and find like I purposely went with no I'd have a thousand dollars in cash five hundred one pocket two hundred other and three hundred other so we started off with like they saw we want ten thousand dollars and I'm like great I look at my guide in local guy and he is white is a ghost on we're I'm like we're so it's a family show, so I'm not going to say it and finally long story short, we go back and forth start with five hundred give another three hundred five like like all right, they got all the money and say, let us go! But I had the pocket cameras, they w one tens in the pakistan, you know, even though we're doing so, I walked away not only with my fingers and toes but also gave the data to both nikon and outside, so they were really excited the moral of the story, your client doesn't care what happened, they don't care if you missed your plane, I don't care if, well, they would care if your plane went down that being one six years you could probably get away with, but, you know, unless you die on assignment, there probably be like we paid you to do a job, he didn't do it, you know, it's just business, so I know the risks and be prepared for all situations because of the end of the day, you need to fulfill your obligations to your clients and your athletes to produce the content that you said you would produce costa rica compact camera cages, pierre compact camera cool pics a my new favorite camera partly because you can shoot it with strobes and you can sink a thousandth of a second right at the camera. So little pocket camera strobes thousands of a second kind of crazy making all kinds of interesting pictures also like to produce pictures on assignment they're not for the assignment travel pictures just you know, mixing it up that gives it the end of the day these are the things which inspired me to go out and produce more pictures and what I do as well as spend that extra hour producing that content which will be relevant to my client so that's going to do a quick break do we have any questions? We have a ton of we have a ton of questions so everybody is absolutely like just hanging on every word right now and it's just amazing presentation have to let you know that doug gordon was in the chat rooms earlier you know, not any good. No, he said wonderfully said lucas is an amazing storyteller sees the light has perspective before uh like few before him oh, thank you, dog very doug if you don't know doug gordon find him he is not only one of the funniest people you will ever see but an amazing photographer sheets great portrait and just a great soul all right, so the first kind of topic let's cover is working with athletes and the relationships that you have with them, mr bill, is asking, are you working with the athletes to set up the shots or just let them do their thing? Well, you know, it depends on how e s t o answer that question, it could go either way, certain things I'll have a vision for. For instance, when you're out back country skiing, a lot of skiers, maybe don't have a, uh, artistic vision, they're great athletes, but you'll be like, ok, this line over here is the one I want you to go in there like, well, that's not the hardest line, and I'm like, I don't really care if that's the hardest line because this is the frame and this is beautiful and I don't care if it's easy, it's even better than is easy because you're going to make it look spectacular, so in that sense, I would say, hey, why don't you do it my way this time? Because this is going to make a great frame and a lot of times after you work with somebody for a while, they will essentially say, you know, I'll the thirty of you know, what's going on here, the photographer, but if you're working with somebody an athlete for the first time a lot of times I let them, you know, lead the way because you want to have that, that comfort zone and you don't want to be too pushy right off, so let them have a little bit of of saying how the chutes going, because at the end of the day, you want to work with them again, especially if they're a great athlete. All right, so another question from more going into the business, but still working with your athletes, model releases and these air for a similar question from wolf would and also m design in the business of it, especially when first starting out when you haven't athletes, are you asking them from our model release from the beginning or even if they're not recognizable in the shot? It's always best to ask from the beginning because even if they're not recognizable by going out there and asking them for mall release and and basically showing them your intentions, therefore they know that this this is what you're interested in doing. So by having that business out of the way up front, you're basically taking care of any sort of sour grapes down the road, so I always ask up front and say, hey, I love to shoot, but I need to get a model release, are you okay with that? And if you're not ok with that, what are the reasons you're not okay with that? And you know, at the end of the day I also want to make sure that I'm taking care of because if I give them images I want to make sure that they're not distribute those images to everybody in the world but I also want to make sure that it's a win win so it's a little give and take but to make a long story short getting a model release up front will save you a huge headache in the long run great advice all right? The next question is from mcveigh vision does does being published provide income from the magazine itself or is it about the jobs you get from being published? The well the industry is changed a lot recently and it used to be a larger percentage of income was coming from editorial clients but magazines of sort of sort of taper down there's a lot of more readily available, inexpensive photography but that being said and I'll talk about a little bit more later um you need to know your values of photographer and what's the photography is worth because the worst thing you could dio and I call it novelty publishing you just want to be published right? You're getting you're fresh out of the you know fresh out of the gate you want to be published? Well, that magazine also needs to pay you for your services because just because you got published doesn't mean you've made it so you need to look at is this in a long term sense and be able tio you know, think of it is though if they don't pay you now for this image they're not going to pay you down the road just because you know so you need to make sure you set some precedent basically to make that is make a long story short right great response all right another question if you are starting out as a photographer how would you go about finding sponsors? Well, trade shows photo plus um you know, there's lots of us not as many companies is anymore but uh, you know, getting your brand together is a photographer is very important having a vision not being all over the board and knowing really what the sponsor is looking for. So for instance, if I was looking for, you know, let's go back to the outdoor industry say I'm I'm a photographer and I want to get patted going to sponsor me with clothing so that I can get clothing for my shoots and whatever else, right? Because then all of a sudden I've got fresh here hopefully patagonia is going to buy some pictures down the road well, I'm not gonna go into patagonia with the whole portfolio of say, swimsuit shots because it's not what they're interested in, even though it shows them and I'm a photographer who would take great pictures, make sure the content you're showing your client is relevant same thing in a magazine industry world. So, you know, I want to be published in trans world snowboard I'm not going to go in with a bunch of ski shots just because I can shoot skiing doesn't mean I can shoot snowboarding, so knowing what they want and showing them relevant content is is important is showing them great content perfect so techniques setting yourself apart this is a big thing and goes back to the beginning where we're using technology to our advantage, whether we're using shutter speeds or we're using, you know, camera techniques to do something um, you have to be able to do something different for instance, this again, you guys have your in the audience may have seen this earlier it's a fifteen second exposure, this added to fifteen the second would have been totally boring and not that interesting, but by doing something different to set myself apart and thinking through that process, all of a sudden we have something that's more relevant and more interesting shutter speeds and again, a lot of you might have heard this if you watch the earlier one, but I shoot water really fast. Or really slow that last one's fifteen seconds this was twenty five hundredth of a second so every water droplet is frozen in tax sharp for second exposure so back and forth here long exposure short exposure camera techniques will set you apart and make you better knowing the time to the day to shoot certain things princesses right after sunrise I want a reflection the grand I'm not going to go it's sunset because more than likely it's sunset there's going to be wind or breeze where sunrise typically that's the coldest time of the day so knowing that this allows me to basically shoot a nice reflection with an athlete so again picking our canvas shooting that scenic shot without the athletes taking that test picture and then from there adding the athlete in a interesting position to add something more dynamic the only mistakes you can make or the ones that you don't do so I would say go out and shoot everything surfing portrait you know, just keep working through the process, try techniques and don't do this and let me back this up new client hires you don't go out and do everything under the sun but go out and do self promoted projects find athletes where it doesn't matter and continue to prove your craft frances this shot I don't do a ton of modeling but hired a model for a day brought in some lights because now this is a great picture fine I'll probably never sell it won't do much for me but I now have this in my toolbox my repertoire but now when I have a client comey and said hey we need you to do a shot of lindsey vonn you have any examples of something that would be cool hey actually I did this thing at the business end of the other day no here's an example of something a little different little little interesting you know prove yourself does a fifteen second exposure for the water and basically one strobe going out and shooting things that may not be your bread and butter but expanding your repertoire learning those techniques those camera techniques and making things different christian vandevelde cal pay spain one light just trying to make something different six lights, graphic qualities and pictures I can't say enough about that gramps again christian vandevelde he's actually podium tour de france three years ago amazing guy this action infinity pool and he's standing right on the edge of it so it's just him on the edge of this pool with one light and basically the background is gone because I've let the background be overexposed and this one light is just filling him so did I shoot this for the first time no I went in knew that this situation would happen at some point and knew howto you know, basically do that using strobes to drink to make dynamic images and draw attention to the athlete found this guy in my front doorstep and you see any similarities to the guy you saw with all the tattoos same seamless set up right well I found this grasshopper first freeze on my doorstep and I was like oh poor grasshopper he's toast but set up a studio set of a bunch of lights like well this will be a great time to test something out never done a scene was shot before so I go in shooting shots doing something kind of cool goes the computer look at him like oh one a little different angle comeback he's gone I'm like what about him like three months later in my closet stuck just what early but the moral of the story I learned something from this grasshopper many don't let him off on his lock on his own but no but had a like a seamless white backdrop for when I had the opportunity like with that athletes no border that with all the tattoos I knew what was gonna happen again putting myself in that situation I see all these things before they happen going out and learning way things work the way your camera reacts in certain situations so that its first nature when you're out there especially if you're working with a professional athlete or something like that a lot of times you don't have a lot of time I don't shoot a lot of fashion sort of fun sometimes but I can use this in my repertoire it's in my photographer's toolbox and allow me to do that again seamless sunrise one light shoot everything why not you know compact flash cards are so inexpensive these days you know I remember when I was first getting into photography a five hundred twelve megabytes card we're not talking gigabytes megabyte card was like eight hundred bucks now you can get what one hundred twenty eight gigabyte card for like a couple hundred bucks so go out and shoot everything you know you can always a lead it later we're going to sort of blast through these lot of portrait ce and again practice your craft because you want to be ready when you're when you're tapped when you have that situation for instance this is chauncey billups nfl basketball player got a call from espn hey can you shoot chauncey talked to his agent he's like yup I'll be there such and such times he said I'll give you three minutes three minutes to make a shot not a lot of time right can't be like oh hey let me do the light let me do this no you have got to be ready for that so went out shot attests near the day before then he walks in dialed got it all done looking for things that a graphic textures shapes lack of color faces they're interesting you know, continue to grow as a photographer for when you're ready to do those things. So business staying organized program called photo quotes, slash photo biz great software photo quote is a software which will allow you to price images I cannot stress this enough, you need to know what your pictures are worth, because if you don't, you're underselling yourself to start with so somebody calls you and says, I want the picture of the ballerina I wanted on one thousand t shirts, and I want to put it on ah, a mail flier you go into photo, quote, you type in the numbers say what the uses it will spit out a number, which is an industry standard. So by knowing what those industry standards are, not only are you probably making more money for yourself, but you're also making sure that you're not messing up another photographer's business, because, again, you want this to be a long term business, right? And if you need to look at it from a long term perspective, so that quick sale, which seemed like a good idea today, is not a good idea tomorrow. And if any of you are interested in photo, quote or photo biz, which is the business software or the quote the the ah pricing software. If you follow me at lucas gilman on twitter I have a fifteen percent discount if you just asked me for it so I'll give you that code later that goes for everybody out there as well so being in that situation being ready, producing content and being ready for all these things so we're going to try something new here and we've got one little piece here we're gonna finish up and it's the second video piece that I just produce in iceland uh for landrover kind of cool so behind the scenes at a little video project and we're gonna wrap with us that's me by the way so we're in iceland for ten days producing stills and video which is sort of a new thing and anybody looking to get into adventure photography I would say also look at video because you're selling yourself short like half the battle is getting to these locations so once you're there why wouldn't you also produce video so this water is about forty five degrees you can see the icebergs on the beach this eric soderquists a professional surfer sponsored by hurley and we basically went in with the intent of showing the journey showing the journey with the cars showing the journey with the athletes and just overall showing the beauty of iceland and how it all inter played iceland if if you've not been there is one of the most beautiful countries in the world recently, there's been a lot of non stop flights from, like los angeles and seattle, as well as denver and it's like no place I've ever been before it's sort of like new zealand on steroid it's, like you're in this lunar landscape, and it overall gives you the feeling of being like on another planet. So, like I said, if you haven't been, I definitely recommend it. Um, shooting video is a whole different beast from shooting stills. We're looking for a lot of b roll, which share the details and things like that and it's, not all about the action. A lot of the things which you call filler are really what sort of peace is the whole thing together, uh, I was blown away that these guys could be out there in wet suits in this in this water that was like forty five degrees with glittery icebergs floating around it. Eric soderquist again, because you give me just a stellar landscape windy in iceland, the winds were sometimes up to a hundred miles an hour, so but on a production like this, you've got a limited amount of time. We had ten days to produce the body of stills. And a short video project and you know, some days we would just go out and try to produce things you know, whether just one shot of the car and just get it done even though the winds were one hundred miles an hour and you're going to see a clip here in a second where literate I'm leaning as the wind it's like full force and it's like I can barely even stand up he aspires these these volcanic spires are just awesome lots of year as you can see just whipping yeah so really cool stuff we're going to go ahead and sort of finish up here though because we're running out of time I talked more than I thought I would but little light painting action you know, just producing like this content and thinking about picture packages because not only are we producing the video but I got to think in the big picture right? So I got to think of all these different kinds of pictures that could go together so if they do an ad campaign these all these pictures have their own sort of legs to stand on and that they're visually different enough to stand on their own or go in a package pretty cool this is like three in the morning and actually never got dark the sky was always blue kind of crazy, just great stuff so we're gonna go ahead and just bust through this here because we've got about two minutes and I'm going to show you the largest waterfall that's ever been run this is one hundred eighty nine feet police falls or authorities and the moral of story is you only get one chance to do these things especially if it's a world record or something how do you maximize the return you shoot with three cameras remote ce will make you money so by shooting with three cameras and now have three angles I have a vertical and two horizontal is why would I want a vertical and horizontal zx? Well, I've got a magazine cover we've got a two page spread I've got a billboard you know, I've got all kinds of potential for sales so by doing that and diversifying because I can't ask your offer to go up and running again right can't miss the shot by doing this with three cameras simultaneously I've maximize my return all right? So let's see here and and we'll just end up with, you know, sort of what I live by and my photography and that is that chance favors the prepared mind and if I could give you one word of advice or a few it would be if you want to do something, go all out, put your heart into it but make sure you do the research involved that it takes to do it justice