No Brand Lives in a Vacuum
So we've done a lot of work this morning on why and why we need to start with why and we thought about content strategy is one way of helping us get to why we definitely need to figure out why before we figure out what and who um and everyone wants to jump to justice everyone wants to jump to writing content instead of making a content strategy a lot of people want to jump to picking out colors and typefaces before they have figured out the wind before they even have a content strategy so there's clearly a progression that needs to happen before you can start to make anything we're going to look at next is how other brands do it we have to skype guests friends of mine from new york skyping in and what we're going to look at is how they've no well two different case studies one person's going to show how he introduced the concept of a kickstarter campaign to raise funds for reprinting a brand guide that he found in a very special place a lot and tell that story and the second skype gues...
t is my friend jeremy who's working at pepsi big global brand how did they do it? What is jeremy's role in house and how does he help find tune the pepsi global brand for different markets? So we're gonna look at how other brands do it with case studies as I hope has been clear by now no brand lives in a vacuum brands are living breathing organisms their systems made by people and people are really the fuzzy part it's the fuzzy warm feeling part that jennifer was talking about earlier it's the messy human bits that we definitely need to figure out and part of the role of a content strategist as it is with a designer you need to make sure that you are a great listener you need me to make sure that you khun like play a little polyp political shell game in some cases so that you can get to the conversations you need to have so that you can get to that why on dh case studies are as we've been saying all along today one way that we can learn how theories and concepts are actually executed there's a difference between talking about it and doing it so we want to make sure that we understand both sides the experience of other designers for me provides the broadest context for looking at how brand books are made and that is why we're welcoming our next skype guest thanks for joining hey no problem how's it going now we see him there he is awesome why don't you tell us about life a pentagram life outside of ohio and you khun dive into your locker rooms discovery anecdote because we really want to know how you discovered that first. Uh new york city transit guide yeah totally eso yeah I went teo the university of cincinnati so that's kind of where my background is and I you know like josh said I work for pentagram from michael beirut who what coincidentally he also went to my program so there's some kind of ohio connection how I got the pentagram through a lot of different ways but that's that's kind of the short of it but yeah this whole story kind of started at pentagram it all happened by complete coincidence by complete chance one day a group of us at pentagram we're looking actually for a tarp to cover up a foosball table that was on the roof of pentagram was with a party the night before and so we were in the basement actually and just rummaging through stuff and we opened up these old gym lockers and they were pretty disgusting and you so they're just whatever you know crappy gym lockers and so on one of them there was all these clothes and newspapers and at the very bottom of them was this red binder peeking out from below and somehow most of us knew exactly what we had just found and so let's see this is uh that on the left which is the new york city transit authority graphics standards manual and so we kind of took that manual yeah there it is. So that's 00:03:58.515 --> 00:04:02. the uh you know the result of this whole project which 00:04:02.52 --> 00:04:05. I'll talk about but we found an original version it 00:04:05.74 --> 00:04:08. had been owned by pentagram you know, somewhere in 00:04:08.71 --> 00:04:13. the seventies and eighties and way took it upstairs 00:04:13.32 --> 00:04:15. and we spent the entire rest the day kind of looking 00:04:15.74 --> 00:04:18. through it flipping through it page by page and then 00:04:19.14 --> 00:04:21. then to get this whole thing started we had made a 00:04:21.24 --> 00:04:24. website and so we took the book we photographed every 00:04:24.08 --> 00:04:27. page and we thought this is incredible other graphic 00:04:27.51 --> 00:04:30. designers you need to see this and they need to read 00:04:30.27 --> 00:04:32. it they need to read the text that's on the pages 00:04:32.24 --> 00:04:35. and all the detail that's put into this manual and 00:04:35.09 --> 00:04:37. so we made the website that got a quarter of a million 00:04:37.34 --> 00:04:40. hits within the first week and so we knew we kind 00:04:40.17 --> 00:04:44. of had an audience out there and then yeah last year 00:04:44.68 --> 00:04:48. we did the kickstarter campaign to produce the book 00:04:49.33 --> 00:04:54. that you see in front of you uh so I could just quickly 00:04:54.63 --> 00:04:58. go through some of these slides and so what I'm going 00:04:58.52 --> 00:05:00. to do is I'll talk about both of these manuals and 00:05:00.8 --> 00:05:03. as briefly as I can because they're both kind of different 00:05:03.33 --> 00:05:06. that they are both graphics standards manuals but 00:05:06.35 --> 00:05:09. they both serve two different very functions the one 00:05:09.46 --> 00:05:14. on the left the subway one is a manual for a public 00:05:14.19 --> 00:05:17. utility it's not actually for a brand it's for and 00:05:17.69 --> 00:05:21. experience it's for you know it doesn't have low goes 00:05:21.57 --> 00:05:24. inside of it it actually has a lot more and which 00:05:24.42 --> 00:05:26. is what I think is important we don't talk about versus 00:05:26.72 --> 00:05:29. the nasa book which is about a corporate identity 00:05:29.53 --> 00:05:31. and so I think there's a big difference between the 00:05:31.08 --> 00:05:31. two 00:05:32.99 --> 00:05:35. so you'll see this this is the cover which you guys 00:05:35.17 --> 00:05:38. have so basically the subway book 00:05:39.76 --> 00:05:44. is emmanuelle that in a way communicates a brand with 00:05:44.32 --> 00:05:47. the lack of a logo or the lack of identity it's the 00:05:47.8 --> 00:05:50. combination of all these different parts that actually 00:05:50.42 --> 00:05:53. creates an identity for the subway system so you know 00:05:53.62 --> 00:05:56. the choice of a typeface which is actually a standard 00:05:56.54 --> 00:05:59. medium it's not helvetica which most people get that 00:05:59.33 --> 00:06:02. confused with on dh then muslim over nelly and bob 00:06:02.67 --> 00:06:05. nordo the designers of the manual who worked at unit 00:06:05.39 --> 00:06:08. mark at the time you know created this this dot system where every single line would be assigned a different letter or different number or a combination of the two and that's how this system was goingto work and you look at this page for example and this this is the identity but it's not a logo it's basically a system at work and so you know this manual is great because basically every single page they were full size reproductions of what? Of what the signs of know how that would be, you know, to a one to one scale positioned on to the physical signs so this is for the one train every single detail down to the how the era was drawn was incorporated you know this is kind of one of my favorite pages it shows you can't really see it but this four degree visual compensation for how that aero kind of tapers into into itself in the counter and so I always find that really fascinating to small little detail that no one would know but it's it's the nerd in me that loves it so you know has every single detail and then you incorporate colors that are associated with these letters and numbers and that again influences the identity of the subway system we all know it for all these colorful circles um and then it gets even nerdier where this is ah kernan chart we're basically outlines that any letter combination between the two these are the numbers of I guess small little units that the letter should be spaced and how that should be applied because there were no computers at the time this was all set manually bond so this was a chart toe dictate to the sign painter whoever was producing these signs how to space the letters so we see here an example of that so this says, you know, between a and an s for example you know there's two units of kern ing and so hear this shows an example between the p and the end there's two units of turning negative long zero so so that's kind of the quick rundown of the subway book do we hear the subway go by in the background during your presentation because that was just awesome I know it was it was a semi truck instead but uh yes so I hear it under my desk pentagram all the time we actually do have a copy of the book here in the studio so we can look at that four degrees can you just tell the audience what this is for visually yeah so this gets into the very detailed my new sha of it actually you can compare it's the typography the way that in some letter forms like a w or an m the strokes and the thickness is and those proportions air actually tapered and reduced so that the visual color which is like the blackness of it is even and so I'll go back to that page come here so the lines that are on an angle where they meet up with that horizontal bar if they were completely even it would look too heavy and it would look actually out of balance and so this four degree visual compensation actually balances out the visual presence of the arrow on again this isn't important to anyone riding the subway they shouldn't care about it they shouldn't know about it. But this is what makes a true guidelines in valuables at this level of details actually put into all these small you know decisions that non designers don't think about and they shouldn't think about it that's our job the designers hand makes that kind of experience completely well the designer's sort of becomes invisible s so that when the person using the subway system is not even thinking about it they don't know that that four degrees makes a big difference but it makes the use of the system even easier yeah and the same thing with you know the current ing all these different spaces between the letters I mean if you just kind of if you didn't know where to start it would be a mess and visually it would be much harder to read the legibility would be decreased and so again this is that level of detail that that is found within most brand guidelines and standards manuals but again particularly with the subway system I don't think riders people who are non designers even would consider that such a document existed for the signs that they were using every single day I mean people live with these signs like literally see it more than their wives their husbands I'm sure they see them so many times throughout the day and and now I think the reason why this book was a success I mean designers love boston with danielli and the work and that but new yorkers had this affection for it that's all my god this is I see this every day like this is a part of me. This is part of my landscape. Sunset natives, who's on our chat room says I'm geeking out on this book I need to own it and people are wondering I mean is there can people still get their hands on on this book yeah so the kickstarter campaign and that huge book was a limited addition so we only do that for thirty days but due to the success and kind of people's interest in it we were able to work with the empty a to do a smaller edition so just about two or three weeks ago we released what we're calling the compact edition and it's twenty five percent smaller than that big one which actually makes it a bit more manageable it's put on your bookshelf for example and so that's for sale now on our website which is just standards manual dot com not plug it but thanks for yeah that's great excellent yeah people are curious to know thank you so much yes a punishing inside before so in contrast to the subway manual which is again like I said for for public utility it doesn't have a logo you know the empty a logo you know besides it's it's it's an identity because of all the parts that put it together now the same does go for nasa but in this case we're actually talking about a corporate identity um and both both systems had this problem where it was a combination of multiple parts that work together but visually look disjointed and so nasa at the time it was run by you know is a larger administration but it had all of these different centers in offices and divisions all across the country and at that time it had no consistent visual identity and so what you see this is now called known as the worm logo which was designed by the firm dany and blackburn ah and richard dany and dan blackburn developed the identity and essentially unified all of the different centers and divisions across the entire administration in tow one solid identity so this is a really good example of corporate identity at its finest um and and you know the example of that and so this page you can't read the letter but I put this in there because when we're talking about guidelines in general and I do this today with the ones that I develop it's always this is a letter from the from the head of the administration at the time james fletcher basically giving a pep talk for the identity and saying that this document what you're gonna have in your hand it's something that we endorse and that we are excited about and that we want everyone to use andi was a really good way to not just say here look we have we have a new pretty identity but it was a very functional and institutional kind of push teo kind of developed this new system and so again, you know, classic you know design and classic guidelines that it's best you know when they didn't have computers anytime you have to reproduce such artwork you literally needed to show them the grid and show anyone who was painting this on the side of a building or on a spacecraft in this example exactly how to do that andi I know I've been having a lot of conversations about modernism and why people are so interesting you know so excited about it today and it is it coming back or why is it still exciting why there's still relevant and I think because you know on the surface it's very approachable and it's very simple but to get to this level of simplicity is extremely difficult and to achieve the you know essentially these abstract forms which these ays you know are really representing the nose cones of a spacecraft you know going up into space I think that visual association is really difficult to achieve and that's exactly what they did so you know this guidelines that you know so this is reproduction artwork that you would cut out and you know photo reaper produce on two different applications you know this guy lines as opposed to the subway system had a detail everything down to confidential letter letters and letterheads and forms and again this looks like very dry like who who would care about this type of level of detail but I mean to me this gets me so excited to see these types of forms being designed this is what I live for this is where I lived to kind of design is this stuff that no one will see you know signed by richard danny it doesn't matter who designed it matters that it was a really important work to do and then it was considered on dh then this is really great you know they did a bunch of and we do this today we show you know we do photo shop renderings today but this is them showing hypothetical applications for the identity see what sa a press information booklet and get communications and you know using futura in combination with helvetica and the logo which I find kind of funny but that's the viking that's in a different typeface and so you know, on the sides of dump trucks on the side of semi trucks on the sides of pickup trucks and then here of course on the spacecraft itself and so you know, I think this is really amazing thing tohave you know this identity design and to put it on the side of the spacecraft I don't think it's every kind of designers dream at least one of them at least s o you know you go from these large applications is something flying to space down to the patches on lab jackets. So again, two very different manuals both the kind of the same goal in mind about clarifying and specifying these decisions that really are important when you look at the grand scheme of things speaking of the grand scheme of things, I'm less sure you could get much grander than going intergalactic but I really appreciate that we're looking at identities functioning in various scales I have the thank you thanks to you I have the the book of manuals called manuals one andi in it one of my favorite aspects of the nasa book is the fact that other people cut out part of the re pro art here you can't see in there that's probably easier um you can see like right there and across from it you can see the content underneath it to someone was using the manual like it should be used to actually like cut that logo out and use it in another application yeah, totally so you know, it's very different I think the's manuals the tools were different obviously I mean, you had to do things manually worth today we have computers and we can a slap logo's on anything we want resize them very easily. But the reason why these were so precise is because they had to be you had no choice but to use original, you know, one toe, one scale artwork because it took forever to paint that nasa logo on the side of, you know, a forty foot buildings. So and for anyone who I don't know if you mentioned this or is where we again also did this is a kickstarter which also ended uh about a few weeks ago is well and so this one was even more successful than the subway book which I just find amazing that people are if you know either finding out about standards manuals for the first time so there's interested in the subject matter so in this case space I think anyone who's just interested in space and nasa fund founded interesting but I think it's really shedding light on the underdogs of designers who don't get their names you know, on the covers of magazines are you know they're not they're not famous like sag meister like kareem machine or you know he's alice designers they really are the guys doing super hard work that goes unnoticed can we talk about art in the age of mechanical reproduction a little bit how easy it is to just as he said slap a logo on something yeah do you think that manual's back in the days of nasa and empty a were more necessary because it took longer? Uh yeah for sure I think it wasn't as intuitive I think we have tools now you know like photoshopped and illustrator where we you know if you're even somewhat familiar with them you kind of know what to do and I think you know how to place things on and you can kind of get a feel a lot quicker now but a tte that time you couldn't waste you know, it took days to get a brochure a book laid out you had to set the type and then send it off to you know, get photo status get that reproduce that would send it back he would say no the letter spacing is wrong make a revision that would take another week and I guess I'm not really talking from experience because I'm twenty eight years old uh and so I had to deal with nothing but from my amazing people that I'm surrounded with a pentagram and other places you know, they actually did do that and so and you know, by talking with richard dany the designer you know nasa he told us, you know, the hardships that went through toe get these things right and this is a little this is it interesting kind of related you know fact is that the way that they introduced this whole program was on letterhead so the entire administration so that basically they just sent out letter has said, look, all of your stuff look the same now and this is the way that we're going toe reproduce it and that not everything is gonna be disjointed and so that was actually kind of a misfire and there and a lot of people weren't happy and so richard and bruce had to go around the whole country explained the system every single office after that, but um yes, so they took it on tour that's how they shopped it around, literally, literally. What they did have a question. I'm just kind of reflecting on what you're saying. And I actually think that in some ways, the problem is still there, because at least someone was controlling it, like you might have had that conflict with the printing office. But now I could just go to microsoft word, make whatever letterhead I feel like. That's a whole other conversation. You know what I mean? Like, you don't have to be any kind of design genius or anything like that. And I think that that makes the brand bible the brand standards just as important. If it's just for a different reason, you know, because you've got, you know, this guy in cleveland and this guy in new york and this guy, I mean, you said that at the beginning about, you know, it's to make sure that we're all doing the same thing and creating that cohesion and you know it keeping your employees around the same idea, too. So opens verbally and visually for sure. Yeah, and, you know, it's. Interesting is, I'm sure people actually follow these guidelines a lot more strictly than they do to the ones that we create today. I would say most of the time, the guidelines we creator they might be looked at. But people kind of tend to do their own thing. And it's, uh, it's, because they can't. Any other questions going back to the book, like they have a logo? I wouldn't be included in that brand. Books. We know, like why they wouldn't have put it in there. I just I don't think it was imperative to the system because they weren't. It wasn't about the logo, and particularly in this case. It wasn't like, oh, you're down in the subway system. You know exactly where you are on dh. I think it was just much more important to develop the visual language than a core identity. I guess I don't have, 00:22:15.561 --> 00:22:19. like, a very, you know, concrete answer on why, I 00:22:19.37 --> 00:22:22. mean, you know, you did see the logo on trains. 00:22:24.07 --> 00:22:26. But, it's, just, you know, I I assume it just it wasn't 00:22:26.62 --> 00:22:30. an integrated part of that identity. One of my favorite 00:22:30.69 --> 00:22:35. things about the, um, the empty a book is the architecture 00:22:36.07 --> 00:22:39. thie actual architectural specifications about the 00:22:39.59 --> 00:22:41. fact that you have to use a certain kind of quarter 00:22:41.94 --> 00:22:44. inch screw or threated stud well, to do a sign plate 00:22:44.99 --> 00:22:49. with specific washers, I mean, this is this is a super 00:22:49.76 --> 00:22:51. complex system. Have you ever seen anything? That's 00:22:52.03 --> 00:22:54. that's, this complex in your professional practice? 00:22:54.53 --> 00:22:57. Do you issue anything of this level of detail to your 00:22:57.48 --> 00:23:02. existing client base? A pentagram? Yeah, we do on 00:23:02.3 --> 00:23:04. dh it's primarily when we're dealing with with way 00:23:04.88 --> 00:23:08. finding systems on dh. So if you're working on, 00:23:09.77 --> 00:23:13. you know, adam for an airport or a stadium or something 00:23:13.24 --> 00:23:15. that gets really, you know, the like ten foot signs 00:23:15.72 --> 00:23:18. that need to be constructed will basically work with 00:23:18.23 --> 00:23:22. an architect and, you know, include shop drawings, 00:23:22.58 --> 00:23:24. basically inside the guidelines say these are the 00:23:24.78 --> 00:23:27. exact ways that, you know, the material that should 00:23:27.45 --> 00:23:29. be used in the way that they should be fastened toe 00:23:29.69 --> 00:23:33. whatever sort of apparatus were using. S o it is, 00:23:33.04 --> 00:23:35. it still does carry over today at that level of detail. 00:23:38.37 --> 00:23:39. Great any other questions 00:23:40.8 --> 00:23:43. I've got one that came in on line just talking about 00:23:43.98 --> 00:23:46. the success of your kickstarter campaigns I'm just 00:23:46.8 --> 00:23:50. curious to know where do you see the future of brand 00:23:50.96 --> 00:23:52. books like this because I think that you've done a 00:23:52.47 --> 00:23:55. lot to get the awareness out to get a little bit more 00:23:55.3 --> 00:23:57. on top of people's minds and I'm just curious to see 00:23:57.82 --> 00:24:00. like where you think it is the next step like reissuing 00:24:00.67 --> 00:24:02. you know, past brand books and in different formats 00:24:02.78 --> 00:24:06. or where do you see where do you see this going yeah 00:24:06.11 --> 00:24:09. I mean listen I think we did this initially and I 00:24:09.23 --> 00:24:13. think it's important to do them because of the historical 00:24:13.38 --> 00:24:16. precedent that they set I'm a really I'm a true believer 00:24:16.76 --> 00:24:20. in and knowing your history a zit applies to graphic design specifically and in general I think you just really do need to know where things came from to move forward and so if anything I just hope that it educates you know, students or even young professionals kind of understand that thiss started somewhere and that this type of thinking is really crucial to develop very large you know systems and this visual analysis of brands I mean where it's going to go? Uh that's hard to say I mean, if anything it might even be more beneficial. Teo non designers that we made more people aware that this type of consideration is actually integrated into the brands they deal with every day I mean even you go to saks fifth avenue or you could have in the subway system they both have brand guidelines and they've both been considered toe levels of detail that um seemed ridiculous to most people but that's you know part of our profession and why we love it but s o I think it just brought awareness to the existence of these types of documents and you know like I said the ones that we create today are strikingly similar to what they looked like back then it's just the tools have changed the applications have changed but the way that you think about it in the way that you kind of consider every level of integration is still very much incorporated all right we're good to wrap things up any final thoughts before we say good bye to jesse yeah thanks for geeking out with us jesse I so how about I get too nerdy no such thing I I'm just thinking about brand guides being used and love the parallel between brand gods being used and particular the empty eh um system being used this is one of my favorite spreads from the whole book is that there's a how to get there how to navigate the system page of using the subway and I think everyone can relate to this whether they've been to new york or any other city with the system that they have tto transact through yeah yeah that's a great page and that actually member got finished on dh so I think there have been attempts to kind of do that but yeah the subway system of the time in new york didn't actually follow through with it which is a classic kind of client move it's like you present them with something and I'm like well we don't have a budget we're gonna do so maybe one day when is a one is a design effort ever done really never that's right we have so much work to do I know right now but nobody thanks so much for having me this has been a lot of fun uh hopefully people in something I did thank you and just remind people where they can find out more about you if they want to learn more about your work sure the standards manual project you khun seymour att standards manual dot com my website is jesse reed from ohio dot com or just go to the pentagram website and that's basically the realm of where I live all right thanks a lot let's give jessie reynolds thanks all right josh so we've got a couple of minutes before our next guest comes on and and yeah now's a good time I mean anything else based on what jessie said that you want to touch on and we do have copies of the books here. If there any other examples that that you want to show so these two books, the the grey and the white books, are on loan from jesse, and I think they're pretty fascinating because their books of manuals, um, identity guidelines for a whole bunch of different cos for many decades. So this is ahh book of other books, a little bit meta. Um, but you can see the system. You can see how the system is supposed to be used. You can see the samples that he was talking about. But this every day don't project is introduced with the sort of like specifications about the manual, like the year, the designer country who found the book, its weight, its spine, how it was bound. I mean, this is this. Is designers really geeking out right here? So this is particularly for ibm it's used in company identification. And as we pad through this book, you khun see examples of the ibm logo in proper use. Ibm sign ege. Back in the day when we had selectric typewriters, what a classic ad would look like for a selectric. Paul rand did this logo. And it has stood the test of time. Ibm hasn't changed it in decades. S o this is spread after spread after spread of different identity systems and ways to use them so I'll just leave through a few of them show ibm there that ties into a question that we had that came into the chat room people were asking about how often you need to transform your brand and you show that example of ibm that's pretty much been untouched for a long time I mean do you have any any guidelines on that I mean some brands can withstand the test of time others we see reinvented pretty frequently it's a great question I feel like what jennifer was saying earlier about how long are content strategy should be valid for it's almost like asking how long your presumptions should be valid for you should be ableto renew or reflect on your presumptions are assumptions like once a year this as jennifer was doing with her own work I would say that it's rare that a corporate identity lasts thirty forty years like ibm's has but there's there's so much rebranding going on especially in san fran especially with the start of world like there's a lot more of that I think concentrated here than in other places one of my favorite apse that I think is just a wonderful thing to use here in the city is ship s h I p they just re re branded on dh I kind of missed a little wing but they had but I like their typography a lot more I like their color palette a lot more it's a it's a lot more distinct I don't think there are other competitors services like I wouldn't compare ups and ship but uh ship is a wonderful tool and I'm happy that they just like to refresh themselves because it means they're growing it means they have like new markets new services maybe that's one of the things that triggers ah rebrand that brings up a good question if a company is creating a brand book like how much do they kind of allude back to their history if ibm were to create a new logo is it important to include past generations of their logo in a brand book to kind of get a sense of where the brand has been level three of the standard of standards actually allows for suggests that you have a history of the identity um which will serve boards which will sort of past presidents it will serve employees that have been there for decades so you know that you've come from somewhere as just he was saying historical um references a really critical for knowing what what you've done what you've accomplished wait'll people in the chat room who are curious first we want to know how people get a hold of that book we got that answer from jesse but these other books here the grey and white books that you've been showing could you just remind people with those books are and how they can get a hold of those these air bigger out of print sadly now yeah yeah we have a question go ahead I think this is actually really interesting part of this course because we've been talking um almost really pragmatically about brand all morning and now we're looking at brand almost his artwork and it's like when we were talking earlier about museums and how they elicit feelings and you know it's about 00:32:21.563 --> 00:32:24. a deeper meaning for his being functional for a product 00:32:24.51 --> 00:32:26. and now we're looking at you know I've run on the 00:32:26.53 --> 00:32:28. chat room and even I'm sitting there like that would 00:32:28.45 --> 00:32:31. be really great present for my brothers fiance or 00:32:31.05 --> 00:32:32. you know, because she loves design and they live in 00:32:32.6 --> 00:32:34. new york it's like we're all sitting here looking 00:32:34.88 --> 00:32:37. at a brand that someone just came up for a function 00:32:37.32 --> 00:32:39. and now it's like I want to frame that and put it 00:32:39.66 --> 00:32:43. on my wall it's just interesting tonight good transition 00:32:43.91 --> 00:32:47. doubt that kind of typography has stayed classic you 00:32:47.29 --> 00:32:49. know that it hasn't come toe lift dated because I 00:32:49.96 --> 00:32:52. think that's another thing that really makes a logo 00:32:52.33 --> 00:32:55. nita refreshes like when you have certain typography 00:32:55.7 --> 00:32:59. like when you look at like even the nasa logo I feel 00:32:59.08 --> 00:33:01. like I can look at the nasa logo and tell you the 00:33:01.15 --> 00:33:03. time period it's from you know or those kind of have 00:33:03.52 --> 00:33:06. your font from that seventies eighties period you 00:33:06.1 --> 00:33:06. could definitely tell 00:33:08.28 --> 00:33:11. mick sweetie's there fun I know josh will get mad 00:33:11.97 --> 00:33:13. at me for saying this but I think it looks like the 00:33:13.44 --> 00:33:18. nineties it does I think with intention I mean dave 00:33:18.45 --> 00:33:21. eggers uses carom on three for everything he's done 00:33:21.51 --> 00:33:25. for decades so it probably does evoke the nineties 00:33:25.12 --> 00:33:26. but I've loved paramount three even before giving 00:33:26.82 --> 00:33:28. and if you're like I look like the nineties and that's 00:33:28.93 --> 00:33:31. your brand that's great you know and someone that's 00:33:31.9 --> 00:33:36. an artist and is using sort of those artistic intentions 00:33:36.17 --> 00:33:40. can get away with that but if you're like google you 00:33:40.17 --> 00:33:42. know you want to keep innovating and maybe go to a 00:33:42.57 --> 00:33:45. sand saref so you look more contemporary and things 00:33:45.32 --> 00:33:48. like that google is a great example because part of 00:33:48.96 --> 00:33:52. their rebrand their recent rebrand was because of 00:33:52.03 --> 00:33:55. the company structure the shift in how they now became 00:33:55.57 --> 00:33:59. part of something bigger so now the co founders have 00:33:59.45 --> 00:34:02. like things to do to fill out the other letters of 00:34:02.42 --> 00:34:05. the alphabet probably but to get back to what you 00:34:05.85 --> 00:34:09. were saying amanda like a lot of a lot of this level 00:34:09.56 --> 00:34:15. of production value to me veers on fetishistic because 00:34:16.48 --> 00:34:19. production values of these books are just so amazing 00:34:19.56 --> 00:34:22. and like I'm I've been like treating them very kindly 00:34:22.54 --> 00:34:25. because he has gratefully loan them to us for this 00:34:25.96 --> 00:34:28. course but yeah, I mean you can see how much of it 00:34:28.9 --> 00:34:32. of a nerd he is on on his manuals and how important 00:34:32.52 --> 00:34:35. it is for him to, like own views and there's. A lot 00:34:35.31 --> 00:34:36. more than these two editions, too.