Contrast within Melodies
Let's, start talking about contrast, and I think that contrast is super important when writing parts of go over other parts or when you're writing structure when you get, you know, from averse to a pre course to, of course, enough contrast between the sections keeps them from sounding run together, whereas also when you're writing lyrics, contrast or no contrast can, you know, help your lyrics and vocal stand out or not stand out depending on what you want. Um, putting what some of your thoughts on that would be like, yeah, uh, I'm constantly, uh, thinking about that it's kind of a back in the back of my head thing that happens when I'm writing, but like you said contrast, you know, demon hunter is just abandon constantly plays with contrast I mean, we have songs that air what we call bargain barn burners that air just fast, all screaming justus heavy is weaken, you know, a cz works for us, and then we have very melodic ballot type songs, so we play with contrast within this styles tha...
t we play with on then in between songs, which comprise most of the songs on any given demon hunter record, are a mix of screaming and melodic singing. So there's a contrast within the vocal there on dh then there's contrast like you said between parts where there's you know if it's a pre chorus going into a chorus if those air both singing parts um the chorus vocal in most cases will be a bigger maybe higher notes more triumphant longer drawn out notes in contrast to probably a simpler um pre chorus yeah and so there's and then there's um there's ways to play with all of that within any given song and then contrast just in various other ways as well but it's definitely a game that we play quite a bit you know? But I think on the flip side of that coin you're not using contrast uh it can also be really effective if, um if the meaning of the words and the feel of the music are all in the same path right dark lyrics, dark music or triumphant lyrics trying for music that also works but I think it's uh like we've said to each other so many times it has to be a delivery choice, right? Right? I don't think that the use of contrast or lack of contrast should be something that people just stumble into I mean, obviously when you're I started writing you experiment a lot and even you keep on writing your experiment a lot, but I don't I don't think that there should be any random stuff in songs they should all be pretty as long as it's deliberative and it could be full of contrast or devoid of it. Um why don't we check out one of your songs gasoline uh we find it is about an extreme example of of contrast in a demon hunter song that there is um and it's kind of a spin or reverse take on what we usually do which is you know, screaming verses on uh melodic singing chorus this is kind of a flip on that idea and it's also we're talking about with deception it's a song that's starts and really sounds like one of our kind of standard melodic ballad songs and then it just takes you for a for a bit of a left turn and revving the course it's cool so we'll check that out shape, play the intro or go not go straight in contrast go into that court yeah, but the lyrics fit there's no conscious between the lyrics and the riffs though no the lyrics the lyrics actually the contrast in the lyrics actually follows the contrast in the music so when the music gets extreme yeah it's got extreme people hear that again you're saying what are you saying right there? Yeah it's it's kind of really maximizing the idea of contrast it's up until the chorus it's basically an apology um for, you know, maybe offending someone or making someone feel uh alienated by my world view of my beliefs um and then by the time it gets to the chorus basically the buildup to the choruses let me wash away the painful words I wrote weaken smother out the flames within my soul no more standing by the way that I believe we can smother out the flames with gasoline so when it says with gasoline it's basically it turns all that apology into like a backhanded, sarcastic apology so it really maximizes that the idea of contrast here I'll play from slightly before the chorus of people can try to be oh woolsey riff so and it's interesting. We had another example of this type of idea from a radiohead song and it's funny how like we picked this one out, but I didn't realize that it's almost the same ideas or so others backhanded yeah, totally back ended um this is from the song karma police you guys might be familiar with maybe not, and we'll play it and we'll talk about it turn it up a little, too that we'll play some of the verse up until the hook part that displays we're talking about this is what you get when you mess with us and it's like with that music, you would almost think it's a love song or it could be and lyrics or totally backhanded yeah, but playing with sarcastic lines is something I do quite a bit um I think you have to really, really deliberately read through the entire song of lyrics of a demon hunter song to really understand whether or not I'm being sarcastic for a certain part of it and um but I think it's a really effective way to to have a conversation almost about something um well it's just me talking I could almost have a conversation with someone um or debunk something that someone says or argue with someone something that someone says by playing their part on so that's something I do a lot I think that also it is an interesting play on the whole idea of keeping a consistent viewpoint. Um, I think that what's important, though with keeping a viewpoint is that you keep viewpoint per section of the song it's not like it's, not like you're going into the contrast within the verse like you think this but right totally yeah, I keep it definitely section it out like if it's going to be something backhanded or sarcastic it's going to fit into whatever that part is if it's the verse it's the bridge, whatever yeah, I won't play both sides in one verse or you know in one chorus of course will always be either an answer to what was being said earlier or the resolve of that so each section kind of plays a part of either one voice, you know, or another, I think it's important, tio point out how just thought out and crafted that is, and I'm saying this because I get a lot of guys coming into the studio with lyrics that have tons of different viewpoints, like, within a section like this, I do we know you wi I and it's like, who are you talking about? What? What is the message here? I realize you're angry about something, and maybe you want something to change or whatever. Yeah, that's, uh, is it we that wants to the changes that, you know, were you even singing at? Yes, I think it's, super important, tio that's an important distinction to make for sure, I've changed whole songs from we tow, I and I felt like we we didn't make much sense is eye on vice versa, and when I change it to, we all follow suit, whatever that looks like, you know, so it's not going to be I way. Oh, but I mean, unless there, unless there's a reason for it, unless the you know it, you're speaking for a group of people all of a sudden, which might work depending on what you're saying yeah, but if you're speaking for a group of people you know that you're speaking for a group of people and that's a deliberate choice absolutely it's not just this is this is the first draft of what I wrote this is these are the lyrics and this is what we're doing and this is what I came up with yeah there's a there's next steps of that meaning every everything is defined the viewpoint is to find that there's an opposing viewpoint it's intentional so yeah that you know there's a demon hire some cold we don't care which is about like people in general not carrying about something then there's a song called I am a stone and it's a very personal song about how, uh stubborn I could be so yeah there's a very distinct uh, you know, knowing which one is actually working for whatever I'm trying to say is just curious about we don't care is that about you guys in the band? Hers is society society as a whole? Yeah it's it's more like we've let things get this far and like, we don't really care yeah that's definitely really defined viewpoint um on dh few people there noticed that we're talking about lyrics more that's what we're gonna kind of start heading into now is the meanings behind lyrics that I honestly feel like and I got to say this about extreme metal I feel like one of the things holding it back is not the brutality and the music but how underdeveloped the lyrics usually are and how the vocal delivery and lyrical I guess prowess is really not there and bans it tend to have more defined viewpoints like like suicide silence for instance where it might be really simplistic but it always been very very defined bands like that tend to do a lot better even within a super extreme genre or atlanta god for instance who's very heavy I mean not the most extreme band in the world the way heavier than you would expect for a band that big but the vocal viewpoint the lyrical viewpoint was always you know what it needed to be even in even on songs that were an experiment like redneck I'm sure that that was an experiment sure, but it's still a defined viewpoint you can't you can't second guess what they're talking about you know just in and further and are talking about being deliberate with decision making everything about the process needs to be deliberate like we're saying your viewpoint as a band or as an individual needs to be a deliberate decision with every song that you're doing and then just the performance uh aspect has to be very delivered as well one of my least favorite things is hearing someone seeing words in a way that sounds like they don't believe it themselves and that can come from really simple things like just not opening their mouth all the way to sing the words or kind of slurring things together and not enunciating enough for you to really tell what they're saying um and that's that can be a stylistic choices well, but I always when people asked my opinion on how to sing something properly, I always say sing it like it's like you think, it's the best words that you've ever come up with and you're really proud of him so sing them really deliberately open your mouth, project them don't be afraid of any of the you know any detail of the words or the phrases or anything like that um and that kind of confidence absolutely comes through in the final product the confidence of just being able to sing apart um like you mean it means goes a long ways totally and with extreme bands when the vocalist does put that across um they do tend to get bigger and, you know, they get well typically get lumped in with the scene that they may not even sound like if they got big at a certain time period but I think that it's more interesting to note that usually those bands do have very, very defined vocals, very defined viewpoints and and they might be simplistic seeming but it doesn't matter like everything about that band leans in that direction and you can't stake it for anything else and bono's said that he can't hit notes you know, I think you might have mentioned he can't hit notes unless he believes it yes he's feeling it? Um that's totally accurate if you're standing on stage and you're just kind of going through the motions um you'll notice that your you'll have a more difficult time remembering words um hitting notes uh putting on a good performance I mean, I'm pretty reserved guy off of the stage, but when I'm on stage, I try to a cz best as I can really feel what I'm singing and, like, make eye contact with people when I did, I wouldn't even do that in normal social situations, but, um, he really delivered about what I'm saying pointed people, you know, make eye contact with people it's like it's aggressive in your face music, I think it should come across that way in all forms the best singers have ever tracked happen also be really loud and I'm not saying that north that vocalists who scream or whatever it uh speaking volumes of bad I know there's some bad ass is to do that, but for them most part the best vocals I've ever been involved with has been with guys who are performing in the studio and are loud and I mean for you know, for metal yeah, they're loud and in charge and superdog and that's what? So what the vocalist should be run estella music it I feel like also that that deliberate confidence that you're talking about is is pretty much the difference between good and bad vocals in this style because I mean us an exception with the amount of melody that you have but most of these bands have zero melody so the only thing that they can get across his rhythm and uh you know, emotional impact, right? And you're not going to emotionally impact anybody your fence hugging yeah sitting on the sidelines you're even if you're even if you're screaming all the way through a song um you know corey taylor does a really good job of emphasizing certain lines certain parts certain words uh I know that slip knot has melodic parts as well, but even within a section where it's just all screaming you can tell at what points he's most pissed you know, about whatever whatever he's talking about he'll really draw emphasis and his vocal well well it's not just this monotone ah screen thing it's this building up to a to the point in saying the point is the heart is you can and then dropping back down um but yeah, even within uh, non you know, melodic scream kind of dynamic there's ways to play with that and even with the pitch of your vocal like some guys are really good at it, some are but um randy bloods great at having that kind of dynamic between like, a low guttural scream in a high pitched one and which gives a lot of really understandable scream to run in there like whenever he's singing a hook um it's in the voice that you khun my grandmother could understood it. Sure you can pull out the words totally, I think I mean, not everything has to be understandable and even in pop music, not everything is understandable, but there's no surprise when a band gets huge and you can understand their vocals right? Because it's not spread the distance between resonating with people and having people understand you is such it's a shorter distance if you can tell what they're saying in a song or at least for for large pieces of it there's less of a disconnect between you and your fan and whatever you're trying to tell them um I love at the gates I've listened to slaughter the sole thousand times I don't know many of the words, but I love it I love it for for what it is, but I don't know what he's saying like almost the whole time and there's something there's something cool about that but there's also the opposite of that where there's bands where I can hear everywhere that they say napalm death is the same way I have we'll pull that bought a few words here we understand is that even if you can't understand exactly what he's saying uh the feeling they at the feeling going through like it's very intentional feeling there is not half asking it and I can understand a few kratch phrases here and there but even within that style of things not it's more like a rhythmical instrument right it's more just doing rhythm patterns and that so it's about the rhythm and how convincing screams sounds right? I think it's still the same thing uh but I definitely do think that the more understandable your lyrics are, the more chances if you're trying to really connect with people with what you're saying like that's at least one way to get about it yeah, totally um well, do people are people print lyric books a lot? I have have not about to see a long time, so this is I'm actually curious even our fans are pretty serious about lyrics that school and I've kind of paved the way for that to be the case because I take it really seriously and um I go to great detail to write lyrics and then to explain them if they need explaining like something about, like, talking about the gas line kind of thing where it becomes kind of a backhanded apology. Um, I'll take the time to write out explanations for songs like that, and I know a lot of our fans really love that, um, I think that's why we weave, I managed to do a little bit better than your average band on physical coffee's sales, um, because of I think that fact, because I think our fans tend to be really drawn to this specific picked lyrics in the in the symbolism and all that kind of stuff that goes along with our band. So yeah, it's definitely. I feel like it's something. Maybe our fans are more prone to care about them. That makes sense. If if a band has a message, you should be able to understand the lyrics. So basically boiled this down to three, three steps for, uh, helping tio make more delivered choices in your songs and, uh, it's really simple. Just finish your roughed her after the song, and once you have that get super critical with it and figure out what the overall theme is and that involves, you know, way viewpoint like where is this coming from? Is it you giving the sarcastic apology, or is it you saying that societies checked out like the you know the theme needs to be figured out and if it's not directly obvious than start making and it's in accordance with songs thing sure, yeah, I'll start writing sometimes all just be looking for something to write about nothing will be really coming to mine before I start writing and I'll try to at least get a couple of lines out a couple of lines of lyrics in those sometimes those lyrics would be like, ok, well, this is now this is what the song's about, but I have to make sure that whatever those lines are are going to dictate what the rest of the song is about because I don't want to just put a bunch of lines together that kind of sound cool on their own but don't really mean something altogether. So, um, even if I'm stumped and I have nothing to write about, I'll get a couple lines out in it at that point, maybe it is just something that sounds cool or that I like the way that the words work um, but from that point on, it becomes like, ok, now that now I know what the song is about and I need to kind of carry that through that thing and, you know, sometimes you find the perfect thing for what the theme is, and it sounds cool, right? Like in the gasoline course I think that that's a perfect example of that that was that that one was so kind of predetermined I had the idea for I mean literally before any of it was mapped out at all I had the idea for a song called gasoline where I would basically, uh use that analogy of putting out flames with gasoline um kind of as like a sarcastic uh analogy I had that idea idea to do that before I wrote anything so there are little ideas little catalyst ideas um that will form a whole song and then sometimes I don't have any ideas and I just start writing lots of the best lyricists and vocalists I've worked with do that as well they tend to have, um like notebooks full of stanzas are just themes. Yeah, I know one guy who has a list of words that he's always wanted to incorporate into songs that he's been scratching them off his list and I think I think that the more thought you put into this the better off you are a lot of times people that I work with uh that's not so good will just come up with lyrics on the spot without taking those extra steps that you're talking about and what happens is this man's just don't do as well because there's nothing there for the crowd to connect with its really drunk yeah seems last minute it's just it's just really amazing how much that translates into sales and into songs being loved um there's a definite difference in the reaction of stuff that's left my studio news a definite difference between songs where the singer was on top of it and owned the meeting or not right so with that let's talk about all right so they've got songs we would hope you're going to do this in real life the reason that I'm saying in real life is because demo is not real life in a way is yeah it's not I mean it's not really until finally in my opinion not real until it's released it's uh if you can still change it then it's not it's not the realtor makes there should be small changes at it all the way through the process I tend to be really, really prepared um and the longer I've been doing this, the less changes happened throughout the process because I feel like I almost predict what changes I would want to happen down the road and so I'll make those changes initially but that was just a product of having done it's absolutely I mean I even on this record I've found out I mean this is seven records and for demon honor and it's ten actual records that I've done since I was a teenager, so um there's things that I still figure out to this day but I should have learned, you know, a long time ago like for instance, I know that just as of this record that my fifth and sixth vocal takes are almost always the best ones uh what singing in particular with melodic singing by the time I've saying it for five times I'm starting to nail it uh something I didn't learn for six records that's interesting you say that because I've had so much trouble in us only producers who have trouble with vocalists that don't know themselves yet so they don't know what the fine line between pushing too hard or not hard enough is they don't know what their normal studio routine is and it makes for much harder vocal sessions as opposed to getting somebody who is in touch with themselves and has their stick down yeah down pat um so I just think it's super interesting note and yeah, toll and I'm always figuring out where my ranges and things like that I mean it's just constant constant like uh you know, learning but yeah, all that to say, you know, no one has it completely figured out yeah, of course not. So I think we should also just point out that you're probably an exception um in how prepared you are and most people aren't ten albums down the line most people watching this are a one or two or maybe a buddy of ours is watching somewhere but lake and by and large, most of these people have done une p or an album and that's kind of like, you know, they're still kids in their development, musical development, and this is stuff that you just don't get the until you do it a lot and to kind of take it back to the exercises that we started with that's uh, that's, not a song writing, but those are things that people can do if they want a skip, you know, they want to get quicker results or something. Um, they're good things that people can do, and the more you do on the faster you get them and then you don't need to do him anymore because they're just internalized. Um, so one thing I should also mention about writing vocals and the studios that just because stuff gets tweet in the studio doesn't mean that here, fake artist, I think people should understand that that that's the place where you go to refine the final versions of the choices, hire a certain producer that you get a lot of trust in. If it's just some guy recording your stuff like, by all means, have it pretty much all figured out if you're hiring someone based on the fact that you like things that they have, this goes for anything. This goes for tattoos that's good you hire someone based on the fact that you like what they've done for other people or with other people um utilize that when you get there instead of instead of just being hardheaded about your songs and they know they need to stay like this and no, I did this for a reason um not not to say you shouldn't choose any battles but don't choose every battle about every part that that person is going to bring up or want to change or have an idea about that stuff could be really beneficial well, the odds are if you like a bunch of their work then there's a pattern there right with pattern being that they are I wouldn't say like the extra member of the band, but they're a very big part of what you're a huge part of it and there's a pattern there and producers don't typically change the way they approach bands like if they're the type of guy that's going to help write stuff they're gonna help write stuff for just about every band I know there's some guys who back that off or not you know you got to be flexible to some degree just like the clients need to be but that's an important distinction to make between producer and engineer to I think a lot of people that haven't really had the experience kind of interchange those two things um in their head um an engineer is a guy who turns knobs and makes it sounds off sound awesome on sets up mikes and gets great you know, get great takes from the guy and a producer usually I'm sure a lot of people already know this is someone who is mohr there for the ideas and for the creativity and for the the off the field the kind of ethereal stuff that isn't the technical sound stuff yeah told an if you're hiring them for that should hear him out right for that stuff um so let's talk a little bit more about this, but I think that first point we have appears really important is that the more prepared you are going into the studio with this stuff the less time you're going to spend on bullshit when you're there more you can spend on actual work and again it just has to be said that your demos or not the final versions of your songs they're just not they're going to change if you hired a good producer, your vocals will change more than likely so set your time up in a way manage your time to where you can get the most out of the cruiser and we put a little checklist here uh so I would have all lyrics printed and e mailed to the producer make two copies of lyrics so that he could breed a long ones yeah there's nothing worse than working with the vocalist not having lyrics and not knowing where to reference yeah yeah yes I mean, that seems really basic but it's not and then the other one that you said was you should have recordings of all the parts and some some way that fashion even if I leave him off of a demo which I have done for this the last couple records we've done the demos of the songs were just music there was no vocal um I would play that song on my computer and I would sing it into my phone so I have kind of this like, you know, ancient sounding demo thing of me at least getting a handle on the cadence on the melody maybe if I have harmony ideas already um but it allows me to map out the song so that when I get in there I'm not like ok, I'm trying to figure out how to do this like I kind of know how to do it and if it didn't if it comes out differently when I'm in the studio than I thought it would then you start tweaking on you start kind of I mean, sometimes even when I do that when I record into a phone I'll do it in a certain volume obviously most of the time I'm in my house and my car something like that I'm not singing full voice I'll get into the studio and start really going for it and I'll realize well that's almost out of my range or that doesn't sound right on dso that's those were the times when I you know, have fun kind of tweaking where where that melody is or or the part in general but usually most of those kind of tweaks should come as a surprise to me like they should almost be like oh, I thought I had this completely now to now I need to make little tweaks to make it work as opposed to like, not having it figured out and not being confident you know, from getting one of the best vocal productions have been involved with was the last monuments record and their singer chris burrito is fi nam basically and there's no secret there I mean he's a great vocalist, but also he sent me a file that had every song basically in her folder it was the lyrics for the song his pre pro demos with him singing all the parts, vocals separated and then the band's uh the band's demo uh oh for every single songs so we could always just references for vocals I had the lyrics like everything I needed to get this done was given to me in advance and way did great work and if all sessions would like that I just always I always want to maximize the time I mean, unless you're metallica you don't have all the time in the world of the studio so all the time that you're left with left over after everything's done is just great creative time to go back and you know, pick apart things add things just make it as good as possible but if you're spending all that time every second of time just getting the songs down um anything you could do to avoid that uh is going to make just for a better product when it's all said and done that just for me it's about being as prepared as I possibly can be and because I just I like to hear it done I want to hear it done as fast as possible I mean not that I want to rush anything but I want to get my vocals done as fast as I can so we can get on to this and then start dissecting and start moving things around start playing with it um I think it's just a product of me I've always juggled a lot of things um this isn't even like my full time thing you know I designed for a living but when I do this I want to do it I want to put everything into it and I want to make sure that I maximize the time I have a lot in my life for this yeah, I think that's super important so let's uh let's talk about guidelines for people who are going to work with vocalist like say, someone in a band whose writing vocals or somebody else or engineers out there and I say the first thing is find the range for the vocalist it's bands do not do this enough but this is just like for people who watched yesterday and I had uh andy martian diehard is murder talking about how he writes part specifically for his drummer or my other guests who was a drummer also was talking about how, um parts that air ridden should be written for the person that's going to be the one playing it so like you're not the vocalist but you're or if you are the book for this this also applies and you're doing stuff is completely unrealistic well it's going to sound like crap so you gotta you gotta know yourself or no the person writing for well enough to know exactly how their range works told and I you know, I there's always times where I'll run into issues think thinking that like I said, I'll sing it into my phone and I'll get there and I'll be like, oh, maybe this should actually dropped like an entire operative in order for it to feel comfortable for me or maybe not a full octave but maybe we need to find some harmony of it that sits right in the middle of that becomes the lead becomes the melody so you alter what you have just told her what you have you absolutely I would I would say if you have a part and you realize that it's too high it's out of your range it's sounding ridiculous you're having really a lot of trouble performing incorrectly don't necessarily rewrite that part find a place for it in a comfortable zone that or two in the band down sure yeah tio yeah change that if if you're not too far into the process you could easily change the meaning of the song if you're the kind of band that goes between yeah well if you're already late in the process it might be might be crowded but this is why people should do this stuff in advance so let's talk about how you actually get ready to write vocals and um you're telling me that you make up sounds and words I mean make sounds and syllables and stuff first and that's actually how we wrote stuff in my band as well. So yeah, in fact for that method I don't know how common it is it just comes naturally to me usually it will be a rift or something will exist and I'll be trying to write a vocal to that and it'll just be they say that it'll just be nonsense words but within some of those nonsense words are a couple of there'll be an s or a tea, or why or whatever? Um, and if it feels right coming out and it feels right once of, you know, recorded it, chances are I'm going to want to find words that almost fit that same kind of the same sounds, which isn't always easy, but at least gives you kind of ah, guideline for the kinds of syllables and continents and things that hit at certain areas and sound a certain way. Um, it's kind of hard to explain, but if you do just kind of say nonsense words back it it's a it's a good catalyst for for writing apartment general, I think I think it's a great way to write parts I don't think that I don't I think that a lot of people who are good do this, I've worked with a number of people who do it, and especially for non vocalists that's a great way to start because it might be overwhelming for non voting was to have to think about having a write lyrics and a great melody or great, a pattern of what type of tone we're going for is just a lot to think about, so you can start with the most basic thing first, which is the battered right, especially with the screaming vocal I mean, so much of that is just about the cadence and the rhythm of it in the phrasing. So if you have that, even if it's just with sounds and syllables and stuff like that that's almost half the work I think so too when you're when you're doing this trial and error type of that creative process here, how the specific kind of elements of the milady excuse me, end up coming out with the tension and release, for instance, like how when you're focusing on that, does it all just come out kind of throughout that whole process? Or do you kind of take these different melody elements and kind of focus on them specifically? I know it was me, uh, I don't think about that too much. Um, it's already kind of in my subconscious, so I just I kind of already know where the tension is supposed to go in a way that works for me, but it did take me a while of actually formally trying to teach myself this stuff. So um, yeah, I don't think about it very much anymore when actually doing it, but I did at one point in time, uh, do stuff like all this stuff them saying to do like I did do this, they did keep song journals did block out arrangements like said it did all those exercises and it helped get me to a point where things like tension release are not something I had to think about very much like riding a bike or something you just don't have to think about it you can just you know, do you do it becomes kind of a second nature thing review your usually focusing on one thing one thing is in the forefront of your mind whether it's let's say it's putting words to what you have um if that's what you're really focusing on than most of your attention should be on the right words to say what you want to say in the way that you want to say them but you're also during any time in this process of song writing in general, you always kind of multitasking in the back of your head. So if it's, if you're thinking about writing lyrics to this section of a song, you also have to be putting at least a little bit of thought into the feeling of how those words are going to come out and how that's going come out in the performance if there is kind of attention and release thing, you have to be understanding that the words that you say need tio hopefully build upon that tension or or that release um it's definitely a game of multitasking and like I said, they're going to be one thing in the forefront of iran. There also has to be a couple other elements in the background. Your mind, what's. The what is the time? Signature that's happening behind you, singing that, um, no matter what you're doing, there's going to be a a bunch of stuff that you kind of have to keep, at least in your peripheral.