Sal Cincotta: Marketing and Sales
South in kata, over to you. All right, well, welcome, everybody. Let's get started really quick here way. We're going to talk today about finding the right client. And so what we've got to understand this mindset has to be that way have to understand everyone's a retired from today, do we all agree to that? Okay, so if everyone's a photographer, then we have to find a way to compete because all of the people think, oh, you've got a camera, your photographer. And so we've got to find these ways not only to differentiate ourselves, but also to take it to that next level. Ok? And make sure we're connecting with the client who's looking for our services and that's the key. All right, so we're going to talk about what the right client is. And then, of course, once we know what that right client is, how the hell do we find them? That's going to be what I talk to you about? Because it's one thing I know we're really good at in our studio it's finding and connecting with our brides, finding an...
d connecting with our seniors. So we don't have those clients who come into our studio looking for an eight by ten, and I guarantee you a bunch you out there are struggling right now. Because your clients are convinced that one of those eight by ten's or those big wall portrait's right those are not big wall porcher it's ok so we've got to start changing our mindset so let's get into first let me give you an overview of our studios so for those of you don't know us we're basing o'fallon illinois and that's in the st louis metro area this is blue collar america we have grown our business during the middle of a recession ok, so back in two thousand eight was our first years full time professionals I photographed my first wedding when I was seventeen years old so I was exposed in a very early age to photography my aunt had a dark room in the basement that's all great but then I went the route of corporate america so I'm a business school graduate I don't graduate film school I'm ok, right? I mean like a twelve step recovery program I'm gonna be all right you don't have to go to film school to be a photographer but you do need to be a business person if you're going to run a successful business we're focused primarily on weddings in high school senior that accounts for about seventy five or eighty percent of our business I will shoot anything you will put in front of my camera right? Me I'll shoot little star wars action figures I could care less right but ultimately that's, where eighty percent of our revenue comes from fifty percent is weddings twenty five, thirty percent high school seniors average wedding spend over ten thousand dollars. This is a big number it's not a big number just because of the ten k it's a big number because of where we are in the united states, you can book a photographer in the st louis area for no lie four hundred ninety nine dollars and they will hand you a cd of images. So how are we able to do this in our market? That's? Because our clients the right clients don't see us is merely write a dude with a camera, a chick with the camera, they see us, his artists and that's the key. We've got to get you there with your business average seniors over fifteen hundred dollars, okay, so senior averages just keep going up and up and up in our local market we loved out. Of course, we want to see our client spending more and more money average portrait's over two thousand dollars will have family portrait sessions now we don't shoot that many of them, so I don't want you believe we should one hundred family portrait a year, but we might shoot twenty to thirty family portrait say year there anywhere from the two to four thousand dollars range again, we've got all those box studios in our area just like you do here where there's a sixteen year old with a camera taking pictures. Ok? And you can buy ah, collage of eight by ten for nineteen, ninety nine okay, so we have all those same competitive factors in our local market. We process three to four hundred photo shoots year and this is important that you think about this because I don't have a staff of one hundred people behind me. I've got partners, okay? That I used for scale ability and it's me, my wife and two other people on our staff that make all this happen. Ninety percent of these photo shoots army. And so this is important. All of you out on the internet everybody understand that when I'm standing up here telling you and giving you advice it's not theoretical advice, this is stuff. We're running an active studio. And so when I tell you this is what's working, take it too hard and find a way to implement it into your business and I will stop for questions, by the way, and so internet be thinking about questions you guys were thinking about questions all all day long here, so let's keep going, what is the right client? Is it someone who's willing to pay for your services? The people who are looking for a photographer? I mean, come on, you guys are photographers. And I need a photographer said you must I must be your client is the people who have money. I would make the argument none of the above. Those are not my client's. Let's rewind here. Last year I was telling this story. Last year we photographed two weddings back on back to back weekends. One was up here in new york. It was a three hundred thousand dollars wedding over at the liberty national golf course. Okay, beautiful bride I was featured on say yes to the dress, so we were featured on that tv show was amazing wedding for us. So when you look at my work and you look at my website, my portfolio, you guys might think, sal, you're lucky you've got all these high end weddings that you get to photograph ninety percent of our weddings are not three hundred thousand dollar weddings, ninety percent of our weddings are sub twenty thousand dollars weddings, okay? And maybe you don't know what a sub twenty thousand dollars wedding is. So when you go back to st louis, we were in a oh, kind of like a rental hall, if you will, right like knights of columbus, that kind of stuff, you know what I'm talking about? Where they got like the basketball lines on the floor and the hoops go up ok that's where we so we shot this three hundred thousand dollars wedding here we go home to new york I mean back to st louis next week and we walk into this room and me and my team are like holy cow how do we make this room look good? Because the three hundred thousand dollars wedding it's very interesting to watch how people will piss money away, by the way three hundred thousand dollars that's a big guy and wedding right there it's stilt walkers at the wedding they had a cigar roller a sushi bar gorgeous wedding, by the way and you can't take a bad picture right? Everything's perfectly lit the room looks amazing now we go back home were in this knights of columbus hall the tablecloths are plastic centerpieces are battery operated candles there's no food here the food is a there was a swedish meatball station there was a cheese station and there was a cake station that was it ninety percent of this prize budget was spent on me that's my bride that's your bride that bride will do anything I ask her to do so that right that could be like ok like the three hundred thousand are probably going to be ok I want to go stand like a liberty right there's this overlook into manhattan you know I want to put you in this field but I don't want my tries to get dirty right that's not my bride the bride and back in st louis and like here's we're going to we're going to lay down in the middle of street okay and there's going to be traffic it's gonna be okay right? You're going to love it and she's like yes let's do it okay we're going to go up on the rooftop and you guys see these pictures you see my portfolio you're like how do you get these brides to do it because my brides are sacrificing everything to be part of our studio those are the clients all of you all of you need to find if you find those clients not only will they spend money with you they're going to do anything you ask them does that make sense and so here's my definition of a client first and foremost they appreciate my art they're not coming to me because they're looking for a photographer there coming to me because they've been drawn in by my art now if you've seen my work you may love it you may hate it I could care less by the way I'm looking for the people love it of course and so you've got to be true to your art when I go to your website what am I going to see right, I I call it schizophrenia if I see schizophrenia in your portfolio we've got a problem and what I mean by that schizophrenia is are you more of ah traditional photographer right you know what I mean by traditional way anybody can take that picture ok but that meeting that you I'm not judging you maybe that's you but are you the photographer who's doing spot color? You know the shot where the flowers are in color and everything else is black and white stop doing that that's not cool that should has not been cool for years, right? And so if I go to your website and I see spot color flowers mission right, right then you're sending me a message that you are traditional photographer but then if I go to another picture on your foreign portfolio and then you've got a bride laying in the middle of the street this doesn't make any sense. So for me is a consumer it doesn't make sense you on your web site if you want to attract the right client, you've got to put this so that it's consistent islamic sense I don't care what your style is I don't care if you're a traditional person, I don't care if you love spot color, whatever you do, they will be consistent with that's what's important, so if you go to my website you'll see nothing but consistency they see the value in documenting their event again. They're not just looking for someone with a camera. They understand that pictures are the on ly thing they're going to have left when this is all said and done without the imagery, what do they have? Nothing. Ok, I know what people are going to forget, whether they're chicken or beef, they're going to forget if you had the fancy napkins or the fancy m and m's no one's going to remember that, but the pictures are forever, and I can't convince you as a client that pictures of forever you understand this, right? If you try and convince your clients now what I do is I offer imagery that will last a lifetime for generations to come. Good luck, because you're not going to convince him of that. They either get it or they don't again. They see this is more than just a photographer and it's not tied to income level don't prejudge your clients just based on what kind of car they roll up in just because they have money. My clients, I just showed you that one wedding I was talking about that was about a fourteen thousand dollars wedding they'd spent ten thousand dollars of their budget with us that's my client, ok? So it's not defined by income level. Here's the ultimate phrase everyone has money for what they want have money for do you guys agree with that? We're all guilty of an army because none of us have money to go on by all these new toys that we buy all the time line need that lands I got yeah sal uses that lens I mean, that lands right way all do that crop well why? Because we have money for what we want to have money for. Well, so do our wedding clients ok? My clients have money from me those are the clients you've got to search out, you've got to find them and sometimes that means letting clients go and for and finally we do not compete on price. How many of you honestly are competing on price right now? Just one person we want to be honest, a lot of you are competing on price because you're going to sit there and tell me sal, I can't raise my prices I can't get ten thousand dollars a wedding I can't get seven thousand dollars wedding because my competitors are shooting weddings for ninety nine and handing over a cd right that's the mindset in our industry I'm going flipping this thing on its head I'm saying I can compete but not on price I'm going to raise my price and my price is going to be the differentiator for my studio in a good way, we're going to talk more about that zombie consents question so far we good? Yeah, we need a mike form internet if you got questions to him up. All right, so I got a question. I'm also besides a photographer, I'm a parent. Okay, so why not? I don't have, you know, a ton of money to spend on photography because I do my own photography for myself, but for people that aren't photographers and I tried to tell him, hey, I got a senior portrait, you know, session that I'm offering you, how do you break down that fifteen hundred dollars? So they don't get that sticker shock? Do you have us a price that you shoot for the shoot? And then you offer prints at different prices, and then it ends up being average of fifteen hundred? How do you do that? That's a great question, and whether they're seniors, families, babies, weddings, we would handle it all the same way. My philosophy is money spent his money for gotten so up front, I'm going to charge a session fee and that's saying, that just covers my time and talent. We've got we've got to stop being afraid to do that, and so many of us are like, ok, I'm going to be a session fee on that's going include a five hundred dollars print credit and then I'm gonna come to your house and wash your car to go it's great it's all inclusive, right? We've got to stop doing that, and so you got a drip it in there, meaning you're going to start up front session fee that's your time in town, then you're going to give them packages, print packages that discount everything and that's how we do it so we're not conform call comes in, they don't know they're going to spend fifteen hundred dollars, right? They don't have to buy the way, then come into our studio and spend zero it's all about averages, so I'll have clients come in and spend zero it happens, I'll also have clients coming in seniors and spend four grand that's, right? I don't see you know, when I get to zero, I'm not crying myself to sleep, and when I get the four grand, I'm doing a two minute happy dance and I move on with my life, it's all about averages, that's what matters so I don't worry about that parent and the sticker shock, because if they ask, you should say something to the effect of the average client family baby spends about a thousand dollars in our studio that should happen during that initial call and if they're not willing to spend a thousand dollars more than likely they're not going they're not gonna book you does that make sense? Other questions questions online yeah yeah we definitely got him online cased our photo in memphis, tennessee is wondering how do you determine your client? What are the questions? You asked the ride to determine whether she is your type of plant that is a that is a great great question I love that so connecting with your bride is going to start right out of the gate when you have that initial consultation. So when I'm sitting down with my bride during that initial consultation first and foremost I'm asking all about their day how they met each other right? I want to get to know them but then I asked him point blank what led you to us that's the million dollar question what drew you into our studio if they're like oh well, you know we found you on the internet that's where we're going the wrong have you seen my website sometimes allies clients if they've seen our web site and they say no if you haven't seen my website good chance you don't even know what I offer, you're not I'm starting to think you're maybe you're not my client, okay? So at the at the risk of having told this story before, I'm going to tell it again here is my night your client horror story and we all have this horror stories by the way so taylor and I are it is very very high end bridal show in chicago actually they have the same bridal show here in new york were at this high and bridal show ten thousand dollars for booth booth is this big kid you're not ok but the bride to walk in gucci prada louis vuitton rocks monsters that's where we got that three hundred thousand dollars wedding I'm telling about ok well at this bridal show and in the booth next to us we hear this bride is one hundred century story by the way we hear this bride talking to her friend she's like oh no he no he knows better than to tell me no if he tells me no I'm gonna make his f in life miserable right? So me and taylor she comes to our booth next to me in tower like way don't even want to make eye contact with this chick right? Because we already know she is a nightmare right spidey senses are going off so we let it go we don't do anything well from time to time we get booked online we never even meet our clients we don't get to we talked on the phone or they they just book us well we get this client two weeks later books us on the phone engagement sessions up in chicago and they want to have it in their start off in their penthouse so they're penthouse is probably a six million dollars penthouse overlooking the lake in chicago and again I apologize if you've heard this story but it's a true story so we not we knock on the door, we get up to their penthouse knock on the door opens the door who is it? Crazy crazy opens the door okay, she opens the door two minutes and I mean not even two minutes two seconds inside there she's like south my hair looks like complete shit. Don't you think I'm like you know, I just met you. It looks good to me. I said we should we should ask your fiance and she's like, well, my makeup looks like shit to looks like complete shit and her fiance comes around the corner. She's twenty five he's sixty five everything that's in your head right now about her is true. She's a she's a gold digger? Absolutely. Okay, he's got the comb over going he's got makeup on? I mean, better than our jeremy has makeup look good. Okay, so we start off when we start taking pictures on the on the balcony and, uh, this is where it just got ugly she's like where's kitty I want kidding and somebody russia's kitty in and it's can't be a normal cat this is a cat shave like a lion ok so now now kiddies in her arms we take this one picture she's like no no kid he doesn't want to be in any more pictures kitty scurries off kitty was the smartest person in the room and kitty goes dude we do their engagement session we are freaking miserable the whole time we get downstairs and ready to go to the next location and I swear to you I'm sitting there taylor right next to me and I'm going what would happen if we just leave right now and she's so we stay we finish the shoot we get home we call her up we give her a full refund on her deposit we give her all her images on a cd from the engagement session fully I did everything take care much lock much love okay not my climb you have got to run when it's not your client absolutely so that is that story in a nutshell do this people crazy out there man you just gotta run from him so when we talk about appreciating my art this is what I'm referring to this is what draws people into our studio this kind of imagery okay it's romantic it's dreaming it's architecturally the landscape based right can you get this image in an eight by ten no it's not possible it'll look like a picture of grass ok, so I'm shooting right for large scale prints when I walk into a shoot all I'm thinking about is what can I put big on their wall because I'm an artist right? I'm not looking to shoot a bunch of eight by ten's do you think that way? You know we just came off our wedding tour and we'll cover this in two weeks on creative live when we're doing our weddings how do I see this stuff? How am I looking forward what am I shooting every picture this way what focal length am I using all the time so this is taken with a sixteen thirty five okay of course his post production down on it but I'm thinking about this large wall portrait for their home in fact, anything smaller than a twenty by thirty is pointless so this would be something we would sell by a thirty by forty thirty by sixty to the client but are you shooting this way that's the problem when I look at a lot of photographers and I worked with you guys I see a lot of this stuff right in here right? Three quarter shots nobody is gonna buy thirty by forty candace off their heads hopefully not right there's a there's a one climb they'll do it but this is what they should be looking for shots like this this is an engagement couple we photographed in rome. Okay, so do you think they're going to get something like this in an eight by ten? It's not gonna happen now, is this a common picture? I would argue that these air very different portrait's than your competitors are taking, and then many cases probably very different than you're taking. Not because you're not capable artists capable of doctors because you're not seeing it. Guys getting that you've got to start thinking this way. You got to start thinking like artists. All right, so some common excuses everyone's a photographer sound the economy stuff. People aren't spending money. Everyone wants everything for free. Does this sound like common occurrence? Common excuses. You guys have for not getting your business where it needs to be. Not making the money. You want to make shooting burners or everywhere? All true. So what? My local market. We've got shooting burners everywhere, right down the street from us. There are shooting burners that will shoot your wedding for ninety nine. Five, ninety nine shoot your senior session, seventy nine dollars in hand. You a cd of images? How are we growing our business? Because we're not competing on price have I hit you over the head without enough, yes, we need a mike I had a question about the story that you mentioned once you figure out that someone's, not your client, how do you tell them? Like, how how would you? Yeah, yeah, yeah. So, first of all, once you you've got to get better and better, I guarantee you without, when you're sitting in a meeting with a client, you know, they're not your client, right? But you're being motivated by money. You're not being motivated by the future. Here's, what I'm thinking about if I take that thousand dollars two thousand street on whatever the number is from you today, I've got to deal with you and your madness for the next year with me it right? You've got to start thinking that way what's happening those during the initial consultation you're like, I just want that jack, I just want that jacket. You want that check, right? Screw the check. Let it go. Think about can you deal with this person for the next year? If you start asking that question, you'll figure it out during the initial consul. Now, let's say you book him like I did. All right, how do I have that conversation? Well, here's, how you do it, I didn't have the conversation. I mean taylor have s o I chickened out for sure and I mean my wife have that conversation but the way he would have that conversation is you just say something to the effect of and here's what we said terrible like susie that engagement session did not go the way we had hoped and I'm sure it didn't go the way you would hold it's clear that we're not a fit for each other and now that we know that we think it's best that you find a photographer on your wedding day that he's going to be able to give you everything you're looking for and that's how we did it okay and we got out of it thank god wait another question back here I have one more excuse I'm a brand new photographer nobody knows who I am so how can I not justify giving away sessions and charging low prices? Yeah no that's a great question where do you begin when you start out? You know when we started out in wedding photography my base package you could book me for nine ninety nine okay, but within three months that nine nine nine became nineteen ninety nine at nineteen ninety nine became twenty nine nineteen I think about my numbers if you don't know year one two thousand eight our studio grossed fifty thousand dollars it's pretty average for a studio let's hear one two thousand eleven just four years later, the studio grossed over a million dollars that is in photography sales and has nothing to do with the pro side of things thing about fifty weddings averaging over ten k a wedding justin weddings it's over a half million dollar business do you think in four years I was able to go from ninety nine to our base package days fifty four, ninety nine how did I get there? I pissed a lot of people off along the way, right? That bride who could afford me in two thousand eight, her bridesmaids couldn't afford me in two thousand nine that makes sense so you can do it so you can start off at the ninety nine price point today, but just make sure you've got a vision, a plan where you going to raise your prices? How long you've been a business, your brand new? I'm the one with the camera that says I can be a photographer, and with over four hundred hours of creative live education, I could be a photographer and I had the artistic vision everybody's a target so I'm very, very, very new, I don't know and don't don't discount yourself because your brand new right way all started somewhere, right? So I don't hate on people like you, I love people like you, we need people like you but you need a path to get from beginning to end right so here's what I'm going to put in your head and we can talk more on the break a little bit but if you're start today you've got to start charging money okay? Just because your new doesn't mean it's free you got to start charging money and whatever that price point is you've got to in the next three months revisit your price is three months perfect you with me? I am with you thank you game on you had a question up here for the people since most people do start at the beginning and then compete on price because they're new and they're not confident when they do get to the point that there ready to start charging more or being in a similar price range that you are that does cut a lot of the referrals out so how do you start building a client base and more referrals when you up your prices that dramatically my permai referral engine was broke the first two and a half years of our business because like I was saying that bride who could afford me know a her bridesmaids who loved us couldn't afford us in o nine and so what we did was we had to take marketing into our own hands and that we're going to talk a little bit about that today but that's going to be right internet google searches search engine optimization bridal shows if we're talking weddings, if you go to a bridal show, you know how much you were six months ago, it's a whole new crop of brides, and so you've got to take control of your destiny there. Does that make sense? Yes, and then with that, obviously, marketing to clients that have a bigger budget would naturally result in them having more money to spend right as it but that can't be your only motivator, right? Right. So it's, good to know they have money and can afford you, but ultimately that doesn't mean they're your clients, right? So then, how do you how do you market so that you're reaching to your ideal people and getting the ones that even though they have a bigger budget at three hundred thousand, they're still willing, tio spend more money on you because they value that, and you're not getting the kiddie owners of the world. Why what you're gonna have to do just by raising your price point, you're immediately separating yourself from from the minutia of our industry, just by raising your price point. Think about it. When I came up here to photograph that three hundred thousand, our wedding and I was doing bridal shows up here, my price point started at twelve thousand dollars that's where my pack kids started if I went back to st louis and priced myself a twelve thousand dollars I'd be out of business no one would book me if I came to new york and started at five thousand dollars they would immediately assume that I wasn't a good photographer with me price determines it's perceived value at least twelve thousand dollars he must be good doesn't matter if I'm good or not they're assuming I am because I'm charging so much money so if you're going to start getting to those clients, you've got to make sure you're charging the appropriate amount is that making sense okay, I got to get us caught up about used only speaking for an hour and fifteen minutes all right, so there are no excuses for failing your business this is your business you own it you control your destiny you've gotta have some confidence I want you to find your inner sow here okay be confident believing yourself believe in your work and keep getting better we all improve I still improve every day every day I go out there and I'm learning something new I was watching creative live yesterday and I learned something new, right? I'm like that's a good idea I'm gonna steal it okay there's, nothing wrong with that ok? We have to use marketing noted connect with our clients so I want to show you this info graph and this is I don't know if you guys have heard of shutter magazine, so I want you guys to all look it up shutter magazine is a free magazine it's free training for all you guys, and we've got riders like soup rice myself flooring nordstrom generals about I mean, a ton of names in there, it's free, ok? And so it comes out every month it's on behind the shutter dot com and the reason I tell you about this because I don't want you to go crazy trying to write this down. This is in that magazine and what this is is a breakdown of the wedding landscape, and so basically, this is with data from the knot and the wedding report. And so what is going to tell you is the most expensive place to get married in the country? Manhattan average wedding? Seventy thousand dollars some more, some less ok, we go to chicago, chicago average weddings about thirty five thousand dollars, we go out to the west coast, san francisco, about thirty one thousand dollars and all across the u s the average weddings about twenty seven thousand dollars again, some more someone's. But this is so you know what your landscape looks like as far as I'm concerned if you're spending twenty seven thousand dollars on your wedding, if I find my bride I guarantee you I could get it to spend ten grand on me. You see in that and maybe you don't charge ten grand, maybe your five grand. So if the average ride is spending twenty seven thousand, can you get her to spend twenty percent honored on you? I think so. If you find your bride she's going to funnel, those resource is toe, what she sees is important. Why? Because everyone has money for what they want have money for guys with me, but here's here's something interesting a lot of people don't realize is average number of guests at a wedding one hundred forty one. Are you noticing weddings or shrinking you guys noticing that? Who knows why? Don't look for mike, tell me why money? What else? Everybody thinks it's money, don't you it's not money? It's not money here's what it is who used to pay for weddings five years ago. Mom and dodgers to pay for weddings five years ago who pays for weddings today? Kids pay for their own weddings today that's why weddings are shrinking they don't want to invite a third generation cousins that they haven't talked to in ten years, right? But when it was mom and dad paying for the wedding, mom and dad is like, well, you can't buy billion not invite shoes right? We can't invite and head not not uncle bill, right? So now the kids are going I don't even know uncle bill. I haven't seen him into wait is he gonna bring a gift? Okay, we'll bring again then we'll invite him but that's their decision process now so this is important you have to know who you're selling to. I'm not selling to the mom and dads and more I'm selling to the kids that's very important that's important in the products I'm offering that's important in the way I dress the way I carry myself when I go meet with the wedding client this is exactly how I'm dressed this is may it was me all the time going to show up in a tuxedo in a suit that's not me okay, I'm going in the middle of the street during a wedding you think I want to wear a tuxedo now I'm not showing up to a wedding in jeans of course, but you get my gist you've got to connect with today's bride it's very important but here's probably some of the most important data top five ways brides are finding their vendors number one internet search engine seventy seven point seventy nine percent of brides today are looking to google yahoo. Whatever they use is their search engine to find their vendors seventy nine percent that's monsters wedding or brought a website seventy seven percent right snap? Not not right all these various sites that are out there wedding a bridal magazine sixty five percent friend or family recommendation sixty percent now of course these numbers are not going to all add up to one hundred right? Because they're looking in multiple places and then bridal shows forty one percent these are the top five places brides are looking where you and each one of those segments that's the million dollar question if you're not here, you're going to struggle okay? Not because I'm telling you that's where you need to be because our brides are telling us this is alan finding people, so I'm not gonna argue with him just making sense let's pause here questions on the internet how you guys doing? We always like questions coming in you know how they are I know they are, they love me out there they do let's see, I'm trying to figure out the best client best questions to ask you we have one from d photo underscore eighty who says do you ever feel guilty pulling money out of people like this? Where's my camera? Do I feel guilty? No, I'm providing my clients artwork for their home I'm providing them a family heirloom that they will have for ever generations to come will be able to see this I think about how impactful that is and what you offer your clients it's a one of a kind product or experience you've got to believe in that great question. What joke you another, another question from online it's from both from daphne can he definitely good to see you last night? The photo op and kindred spirit photography from tulsa, oklahoma, going back tio turning what? You know the right clients, how to photographers turn down clients when they're just starting their business, we want the word of mouth and again, what if you're just starting out? You can't afford not to put the clients and that no, that is a true statement, so when I was just starting out, I took anything and everything I would walk into my studio and I'm not going to sit here and tell you to turn those clients away, but you've got to do something damage control, right? Or at least start thinking about how you're gonna handle this in the future because you know you're dealing with them for the next twelve months, so at least look at that client go, you know what? They're a little neurotic, but I'm ok dealing with them for the next twelve months and then of course, as you grow, your business will be able to be a little bit more selective, so I try totally empathize with what you're saying because when I was starting out I shot everyone but learned from my mistakes man I mean a lot of mistakes in the beginning of my business and it created a nightmare force from a customer service perspective right there's certain clients no matter what you do you're not going to make him happy s o you mentioned that when you raise your prices a lot you had to jump into big more like more marketing and I know what you just said like the top five resource is but I know from experience from you know friends and stuff advertising unlike the nod and wedding wire people are looking for like two to three thousand dollars you know budgets not ten thousand dollars so what sort of places where you advertising other than bridal shows in the beginning the knot is a great place so what what's your price point right now three thousand so but think about it if you cannot here's my philosophy let's say I advertise on the not right and I think they're in the range of like one hundred fifty to two hundred fifty a month somewhere in that range ok so let's just say there three thousand dollars a year I'm willing to give them a try because if I could book one wedding from them it's paid for itself you see my philosophy there now of course I don't want to be in a break even situation but that's how I would judge it and if you're in that price range on the not a wedding wire or snap not or any of those sites, you're gonna book mohr in one way, right? But I want to be eventually at the ten thousand point, but I don't think those brides air looking on and I would one hundred percent true I would agree with that those brides are not looking on the not very few and far between, but there's a combination ofthe the not off magazines of internet search so don't discount it know that they're there touching all all of those here's my analogy for you think about the companies that advertise during the super bowl, right? So doritos is a perfect example, right? They run like three or four spots, each one costing them millions of dollars. Do you think when they step back that they can say because of that super bowl commercial we sold ten thousand more bags of doritos? They can't write but what's it for brand awareness it's all about brand awareness so that's why I'm still on the not if you go out there, I'm still there brand awareness my brides are seeing me in multiple places and that lends to my legitimacy that making sense all right? So let's keep going first thing I want to talk about or is your website so we already know that's where they're looking rights of super important when was the last time you updated it? This is brutal man. I go to your web sites, I do a lot of consulting with photographers and I go to your web sites in the first thing I see I'm working with somebody right now I go to go to his website last time his website was updated may of two thousand eleven to doubt his brutal that's a year and a half ago what are you saying to your clients? I'm not busy don't hire me I never work you understand? I'd rather see you take your blawg down right then have it up there that the last post you made was in may you guys with me he's got this crazy look over your eyes way focused all right so may no good take that down don't have it up the other thing you can do on your block is right nonsense nonsense is what you did for breakfast, right? Nobody cares what you did for breakfast nobody cares about what you're doing for launch what your favorite recipe is I understand the goal it's to get people to know you and who you are but the truth is no one wants to hear about rainbows and unicorns there's probably two photographers in the world that could get away with that type of social media strategy that is not a riel business strategy. I'm sorry to tell you. Okay, if you're doing this today, don't get pissed off of me, it's. Just reality. Think about yourselves as consumers before you make a purchase. New car. Um, a cup of coffee. Starbucks. Before I go to starbucks, I can tell you what I don't do. I don't go to the starbucks blawg to see what the ceo is doing yesterday for dinner, do you? I don't give a crap what he was doing for dinner. Just make my damn coffee right. And that's what? Your clients I make the argument that my clients, all they care about is my photography. So make sure that your blawg your web site is filled with your photography. Okay, this is the first interaction with your company. This is your storefront showcase. What you want to sell. We talked about this right out of the game. When I go and look at your portfolio, what am I see? Am I seeing consistency? And by seeing traditional portraiture, am I seeing right a little bit more aggressive style, a little more commercial look and feel? I don't care what your what your niche is, just make sure you're consistent because that will ensure you attract the right clients, you know, a client doesn't come to me. The one who wants pie color flowers they don't come to me you know who else doesn't come to me the people who want the groom to be jumping in the air you know that shot I hate that shock I don't know who came up with that shot I guarantee you it was a girl because guys do not jump in the air for no apparent reason okay that's not what we want to do I'm a dude I want to be a bad ass I don't want to jump in the air okay so if you go to my website you won't see any of that kind of stuff so I don't get those clients who are looking for it is that makes sense pricing online oh how many clicks to your portfolio one click I should be your four forward to max I don't have to keep drilling down your website to find your actual portfolio you're making it too difficult for me make it easy for me to see your work pricing online yes or no no no no no no no pricing online we can't put it online why what are we encouraging if we put it online price shopping bad behavior that is bad behavior from our clients they're going to go look sal has eight hours of coverage and in a wedding album on go while he's ten thousand dollars okay and look here susie she's four hundred ninety nine dollars she has eight hours of coverage in a wedding album. We're going to go with susie. What? I just rewarded bad behavior. I want to get to the meeting. I want to meet with them. I want to show them my products. I want to share my vision with their day. I've got to get there so no pricing online instead, prices starting at that was your question. Okay? I'm totally okay. Why that's a pre qualifier? Same for seniors, families, babies, portrait's whatever you're doing, do not put your pricing online. You're rewarding bad behavior email policy if we don't put our pricing online, we're sure as hell not going email them or pricing and especially ala carte pricing. Why are you putting the price of an eight by ten online? Why you're now telling your client here's what you should expect to buy here's somebody by tens there twelve dollars there fifteen dollars? That should not be there. I don't want you buying ala carte. I want you buying packages. I want you buying bundles. You guys with me? Okay. What is your email pricing? Email policy? First of all, when that email comes in to me I make it a personal priority to respond to a wedding requests within twelve hours that is my goal I have a template and email that I respond to thank you for reaching out to our studio salvator some kind of a target is an international whatever right? Put a little blurb about yourself our packages start at forty nine, ninety nine and all inclusive they include a wedding album, plenty of time and engagement session and a host of other options here's, where we drive the point home if we're within your budget, what we love to do is sit down and meet with you hear all about your day and walking through all our packages please let me know when you'd like to set up a meeting, everybody catch that, so now I have pre qualified them when I get to the point where I meet with a client ninety percent of the time or more, I will close that deal why they've been prequalified, so by the time you come in my studio, you've seen all my work, okay, you've seen my price point, so what else is there? I can on ly lose this deal, right? I can on ly screwed up or what? I'll walk away right there crazy just get out of there, but we've got to get to the meeting we've got to get to that phone call that's my strength I know that when I get to that meeting I'm no longer selling artwork. I'm selling me. You're selling you. This is our website when you land on our website it's simple it's clean right to the point. In fact, all you got to do is click right here. One click and you're going to be in our portfolio. That is powerful stuff. So it's really easy for my client and when they click on that portfolio boo first image that comes up love it or hate it it's an impact image that's what I want them to see right? You get in this is an eight by ten not happen. No way this is being purchases an eight by ten and that's what I'm trying, I'm sending a message before they've ever met me. And if they go through my portfolio, you're going to see all of these images I encourage you go to our website look at this up image after image after image is going to be in the impact image that's how I'm getting the right clients from my web site let me get through magazines hold this guy like this clock ticking uh, magazines, trader, local magazines I don't care if you're doing pats, weddings, families, et cetera we are in magazines why brides are telling us that's where they're going but let's come back to consumer behavior when you look it up something in a magazine do you purchase it what's your first step after you look up something in a magazine you do the research right and from there you go to their website you never purchase immediately from the magazine you don't open up a magazine go look let me call them up one, eight hundred let me call india right it's not what you do you go to their website you do a little bit more research to do google you're looking to do all the research you can online ok and so that's where we've got to get you but this is about brand awareness they've got to know who you are the worst thing that could happen to me in my local market is a bride says to her bridesmaids right who's your photographer oh south cincotti who would be disastrous? Can you imagine paying that much money? And no one knows who you are that's not possible in our local market everyone knows who we are it's all about brand awareness make a statement no collages if you're going to create a magazine and do not just put one in, you know a twenty images and in this montage you know if space and let's look at one of our recent at this is a two page fred we recently ran left side of the page impact image one image telling you who we are do you agree that just looking at that image it says who we are urban gritty right in your face yet romantic ok these are the kind of clients that I'm looking for if a client was looking for a shot in the park with some beautiful trees behind them not my client that's not what I'm looking for over here on the right okay notice also no pictures of shoes jewelry brace and nobody keeps a crap man no one's gonna book you if you're a wedding photographer because you took this amazing picture of parachutes we'll have the wedding photographer got sitting out here okay have you provoked a client they walk in you're like oh my god, that picture of those shoes hanging in the tree I've never seen anything like that before that's when I knew you were my photographer you book somebody like that for a pair of shoes how many clients? One thank you point point may by a majority of your clients that's not what they're booking you on so don't show those images if you go to my website you won't see those images not because I don't take him because that's not my client over here on the right the copy the copy is tied to customer testimonials this is what our clients are saying about us amazing breathtaking unique one of a kind creative, stylish award winning while ridiculous stupid mind blowing epic one of my clients use the word epic I was like dude, I love it he's like you always taken epic shot from every wedding I'm like yes I do that's my goal when only the best photography will do one award winning studio ok two great options one award winning studio this is an ad yes let's get some questions here wait a mike on wanted and reading the amazing breathtaking unique level I got down to one that I even asked the similarly next me what's after ridiculous stupid really? Yeah. Ok, tell me about that one I want to know that's a different demographic right? Kids do go to your shitty stupid stupid in a good way not like stupid, ignorant, stupid you're with me now fad me and good, right? Yeah, um going back to the meetings that you set up with clients when they email you and you send out the template email do you do that for portrait portrait requests as well or just for wedding? No for everything. So anybody who gives us a request we said not a very similar email like that looking to get to a phone call or to a meeting now portrait client senior clients I'm not getting to a meeting that's a phone call lay is saying what is the difference between not putting your prices online but then saying prices start at aren't customers still able toe to filter you at move on to someone else? Absolutely but I'm ok at that point they know where I start they have no idea what's in there I need to get to the meeting and that's a reason that's theirs because I don't want to meet with a client who wants to spend five hundred dollars on a photographer and I'm telling her I started five thousand but I've got a filter those people out somehow but I definitely don't want my price list out there so there is a difference there it's about filter ok, we have another question from four a m c who says would you suggest to have a slide on the main site of your website was say five good pictures just scroll or is it better to just use one picture telling who we are? What do you think has a better impact or safer? I don't think I understood it say it again so I think the question is are you when you were talking about your website having impactful photos? I think she's saying is it better to have say she had a slide go by five strong images or just one impactful what's here I'd like to see multiple impact images because you never know what's going to resonate with your client it's always interesting so I'd like to see five strong images scroll by just to show your diversity I the way I would say it is I'd rather see five strong images than twenty mediocre images that's probably a better way to think about thank you you're welcome all right and more questions out here we're doing good to see lots of notes being taken that's always a good thing let's keep going direct mail not dead we use it for our families and seniors october family portrait month what are you doing to get families into your studio last october not this october have been super busy out with my tour but last october we did over fifty family sessions during october what are you doing to get those sessions we're doing direct mail we're reaching out to our existing client base hey guys, his family portrait month we've got limited availability put a direct mail campaign together typically we use nine by six cards right? Don't go cheap don't put those tiny little cards in the mail that's not gonna work it's gonna get lost and everything else in the mail we use in nine by six car front back impact images okay, you can get a list from a company called info yusa I don't know if you've looked to them and you could filter by demographic so info you say you can have the ability to search for households with children own their own home uh how much that the household income is what mile radius they are from your studio again this works for families babies, pets everything this is another way to get the word out there about your business now I don't do this for weddings by the way I don't find this toe work for weddings the data isn't accurate enough somebody's got kids they usually got kids forever typically so that's the way we do it imagery is important whatever you're putting on this car the imagery has to be strong remember you want to attract the right client so if you're doing family portrait month what kind of family porch it's are you offering? Are you offering those portrait's where they're in the park everybody's wearing khaki pants and white shirts whatever your style is just make sure you're true to it in the car me my style of family portrait that's not us at all right we got our families that were in shocks blue jeans and a color palette right? So rarely are they going to sit there all dressed identical like that's just me I don't want to look like my wife I think that's weird right? I don't want to dress the same so that's my style my brand so guess what's going out of my marketing pieces all tied I got to catch you up all right facebook this is our new block okay, this is very popular, in fact, it's better than your block in many ways people can't tag themselves on your block they can't do it on your block you're hoping that they come to you, right? They've got to go to your block, they've got to reach out to you, but on facebook you're pushing information out to the client. Does that make sense, cates wholly different medium, so if you're not on facebook, stop resisting get out there because that's, where clients are uh also on facebook, you can measure the metrics, so I don't know if you know this go into that little admin panel, the one that's freaking you out every time you see it, you can actually measure the metrics and you could see how old people are that are coming to your site. Are they male or female? Right? What age demographic bracket? Or they end very powerful information that again, you can't get on your block, so this is becoming very powerful for us. Um, you can also advertise on facebook. I don't know if you know this again go to that little adnan panel ok and there's going to be an option, therefore audience and create an ad and you can create an ad and start isolating by male female, right? All sorts of demographics, people who have families people, let's, photography is a hobby, all sorts of ways to isolate, and it'll show you a number. Realty time off. Okay, by running this ad with these metrics, you're going to hit fifty thousand people. Mike, I was curious on facebook, you know, he's, talking about using that for advertising and getting find out metrics on your clients. Do you have your facebook page open where anybody can see it, or do you have a lock down to keep the face stockers off? No, no, what we're talking, we're talking two things right? One is my personal page that's locked, okay to keep the crazy people, but apparently I haven't, because I got offered a car ride by graham stranger to right now, but my business page is completely separate and on my business page that's wide open, does that make sense? That's, how you got to do is keep your personal life separate as much as you can from your professional life, right? I don't want my clients seeing everything I do. Another question, internet hit me with questions. So specifically with the facebook question there, how do you drive your clients to the business page versus your individual personal page? Because, that's, what I have a problem with is that they're all going in, fronting me on that versus my actual business page thank you valid question and it is a challenge sometimes so taylor and I have two different philosophies I will friend anybody who friends me even my clients my wife will friend no one taylor's philosophy is if she hasn't had a drink with you she's not going to friend you on facebook that that's her that's her measure in stake but it's a good measuring stick it works but for me I'll friend anybody but with that being said I'm very conscious about what I'm posting on my personal site so I would say that when I'm trying to post something I will post it to my personal page and my business page because I know I've got a hybrid approach I do both right it's frank do both and so here's a perfect example this is a shot I took it a recent wedding and what I mean perfect example is a great way to promote yourself I took a picture of the groomsmen this is one of my favorite groomsmen shots that I've ever taken okay I don't know if you love it or hate it I love it we use just the available light here okay I used a one four twenty four millimeter one point for prime lands okay took this shot right there it's the dad's all the groomsmen right? We're always posting these beautiful pictures of the girls I'm like dude I want to post something for the guys and so we post this up there she and me and I text her I'm like hey dana I said there's a picture already up online of you guys go check it out this was posted that night I got home I couldn't wait to do it immediately ok right there was when I took the screen shot one hundred fifty six likes on this eleven shares eleven people are sharing this on their facebook sites thirty one comments one of one of them's the mom I cannot stop looking at this picture everything about it is an instant classic every little thing the expression the light this is the mom writing this okay so this is what we're looking to do is use facebook this would not happen if this were on my block is everybody get that point very important we have questions from the internet yeah definitely daniel brazil is wondering when you show only these top looking images don't your clients expect that all of the images will look exactly that that good that's a great question way explain to our clients we go out of our way to explain your clients that these air considered art pieces for your wall are pieces for your album and so the truth is every image that is finally delivered to them will look something like that so yes that's very important good question so another face a facebook question from rogers global photo so if you are on facebook and I guess putting a lot of your energy there, would you recommend canning the regular blawg? No, I don't can the regular block um I don't have internet set up for me right here. What I want you do is here's what we do if we post something to facebook, I posted to my block as well, and I'll take my bloc blink and just put that in my status update, so try this. If you take your blawg link and update your status update, it will actually pull pictures over for you so that's how I do it with ball. All right, let me keep going. I'm gonna keep going. Referrals? No pressure on celeste that's. Why? She loves me. All right. Re falls, of course free business, right? We love referrals within our within our business. What leads to worry for obviously great images if you're not taking great images, you're not going to get a referral that z z to figure out, but there's obviously more it's got to be tied to a good and so one we want email your response times you're delivering your communication, your packaging, you realize how you package your product says a lot about your brand you can't just hand over pictures in a fully bag, man hey, we can't do that you're saying here's some junk for you people are gonna pay that much money and then you're handing them jon um turn around times we had two weeks all our weddings all our clients see their images in two weeks yes, I outsource I just said it. Okay, I let I let it out. I outsource I'm totally okay outsourcing we use a company involved and it's not calm all transparency that's my company okay, so I acquired it back in february of one entrepreneur and give me a break. All right, okay, so way have a referral program with quality products. Ok, so we've got offer quality products as well and our referral programs. So what is our referral program looked like? Okay, so our referral program here's what I refer program is any bride who refers me another bride gets a free sixteen by twenty four canvas how much is a canvas cost you one hundred bucks? Ok? And where you get it sixteen by twenty four campus is going to cost you about a hundred bucks. Is it worth one hundred bucks to me to get a ten thousand dollar wedding? Yes, it is and so a true story recently I had one of my bride's refer me six buddies now that doesn't happen all the time I don't want you to think like oh my god everyone sounds clients refers in six weddings that doesn't happen all the time it happened for one reason one reason only she told me she's like sal I'm pregnant and I want canvass all over my house and so she referred all her girlfriends every time they got engaged she referred them toss think about how life has changed as we know it when you get engaged today how do you how do you tell the world you're engaged facebook I take a picture of your rain you posted online writing and all your friends right in that and that's what's going on today so who better to get me the referral than one of my clients? Because she's going to see that for talk about packaging when a client by something from us this is how packages air delivered ok, so we're not just delivering something in a poly bank everything is brandon one hundred percent brandon no couch the couch is not okay pricing you get what you pay for right? If you price yourself low you're dealing with the minutia of the market you've got to raise your prices just so you can compete better believe it or not raising your prices will actually make you more attractive to clients I know it sounds counterintuitive I need you to trust me pricing screams about your brand right let's say this is a bad just something the carry your stuff in how many people would agree a bag is this something you carry your stuff nobody here you would not my client think about it louis vuitton is a perfect example leaving oh now you with me now all right so little time you're like yeah right louis the town three thousand dollars back but if you believe a baggage is something that carry stuff in you would not see the value in a three thousand dollars back but if you believe about the bag is an accessory a statement piece suddenly you would spend that money do you see the difference? I'm not looking for the client who sees a picture is just a picture I'm looking for the client who sees the picture is a piece of art for their home on my getting through to you all right what does your price point say about your brand we've already covered that but you cannot charge ten dollars for an eight by ten you've got to stop doing that immediately money is like water it will follow the path of least resistance if you make it easy for your clients to not spend money with you they will not spend money with you and if you charge ten dollars for an eight by ten they're not going to spend money with you products you offer there has to be value beyond the dvd anybody can shoot and put images on a dvd. Anybody okay? So how are you competing? We're competing with high quality products. First and foremost, they photo. Okay? Other sponsoring this event, we used a photo. We love their products. We love their canvas. We love their prints. Okay? We love some of their guest books and in albums these are the things we're offering our clients so that we stand out from the crowd. You've got to find a lab that you can partner with, but most importantly, trust. Okay, there they're in charge of the final quality product for your clients. Would you agree? Ah, sticky out. I don't know how anybody in here using sticky albums. Oh, man, not enough you need to check out sticky on sticky arms dot com super simple product it allows you on your iphone on your ipad to deliver to your clients and up and up where they have their pictures on it. Can you imagine sending your client a free custom app with fifty of their wedding images on fifty of their senior images on it? They're going to be blown away yet another way you're differentiating yourself from the crowd signature collection albums, okay, as c albums, these air our albums, this is what we're using to differentiate ourselves from our clients. Yeah you could get a ten by ten album anywhere okay but if your album looks the same as your competitors what's the difference again you're just competing on the low end I want to have an album that raises the bar for my studio song freedom music you realise music says it talking about your brand right if you don't think so if you do you think your clients your trendy clients you're young hip clients want here nineteen eighties keyboard music they don't want to hear that music man they want to hear popular music the same music that they're hearing on the radio song freedom gives you that option and the thing is you can paper song so I got used by one song at a time dude I caught up yes I need a round of apologies all right so let's take some questions I've got about four minutes of the dates in question alright fantastic well we have a question from a man bhangra says how do you ask the client if they're ok with the picture with pictures you are posting on facebook I'm really struggling with this one yeah that's an interesting question I find that most of my clients want their images posted on facebook but more importantly in my contract in our model releases like it's a high school senior a family portrait it says that we own the copyright now I understand even though I own the copyright if my client says they don't want them posted online I would never post online if they say they don't want it but my clients want them online so keep keep that in mind I'm not finding a whole remember it's about finding your client my client wants to be online um do you have any thoughts? Lemon studios is wondering if you have any thoughts about the pay for exposure stuff on facebook thing where you can pay to send it out to more people and yeah so here's the thing those of you on facebook out here there's this new thing every time you make us a status update right there's a little exposure button there because here's how facebook's algorithm basically works just because you post it doesn't mean if you have five thousand fans all five thousand are going to see it in their feet facebook's actually making decisions on what it's putting into feeds and so by pay for more exposure it will ensure that it's seen by more people I am opting not to do anything with that I don't want any part of that I'm not gonna pay for that level of exposure so it's just a personal item bythe and everybody out there I apologize if you feel like I tried to give you a bunch information in an hour and fifteen minutes so next week when our on november fifteen were on creative life, we're getting spin on a ton of this stuff in a lot more detail. So let's, keep getting a few more questions here, ok? And actually, do we have any in the audience? Because we just got granted an extra five minutes. I do dr celeste notes because I push her to her limits all the time. I was supposed to have a slide deck and trail now. Yes, I know, but that's why? She loves me when you're talking about referrals and giving the bride of a canvas. What do you need, uh, to book a wedding off of a referral? Or do you need a phone call from a bride? Like, how do you work that great question. It is an actual booking, so I don't just want that phone call. All right? I want that waiting to book. So that pride I told you about she is miss missouri, and all her friends are beautiful little friends are. She referred all of them, and we book six weddings from her and think about it was fun for us because the first wedding we shot, she just had a little bomb. Pride. She had this glow, she's beautiful. Next wedding, we photograph she was out, she looked like she was ready to explode the next wedding, the baby was born three months old. And then so we were kind of part of this the whole way through so it's a lot of fun and it keeps your client's engaged with you. We've got regional who's wondering he's recently figured out his style with impactful imagery. His question is this website since he recently figured this out, his old work is not consistent as you pull all the old work down that only leaves him with a few images. Pull the old war down immediately get rid of that stuff or you're going to keep attracting that old client. But here's, what? I want you to consider doing some free. Yes, I just said free photo shoots here's what you have to understand I come from corporate in corporate. We had this philosophy of doing something called seating as e d I n g has anybody ever heard of that term, right? You reap what you saw, right? That kind of philosophy. So what we would do in corporate is we would cede some investment money, some consulting time so that we could come back and grow our business so I would do the same thing in this situation, which is investing some photo shoots, okay? To get the right kind of shots you want, do it for free, doing time for proves or whatever, pay somebody one hundred bucks, get him in a wedding dress and now build your portfolio showing the shots you want to show and you'll attract the right clients buddy and more questions out here you guys doing good oh we'll get the microphones um you know you should everything that's put in front of you do you only show on your website I know you said you only show what you shoot but let's say you have a passion for shooting other things like landscapes or stuff like that do you have a section on your web site or do you can you keep it completely separate that is a great question I have a huge passion for actually city escape photography that I love if you ever come to my home all over our walls are pictures we've taken during travel there's nothing on my website for that my ultimate dream one day it's open up my own gallery where I can sell my travel photography but I don't have it on my web site merely because there's two things if you go to my web site you will see weddings seniors because those are the clients I'm looking for right I shoot boudoir I should families I should all these things but I keep my site clean and concise that makes sense or you actually aside for aside from the internet where do you find that you are getting most your wedding clients from besides internet murata sold fifty percent of my brides come from bridal show okay, and how do you pick and choose which exposed to actually show it is their criteria that you follow that's probably the best question that's been asked today how do I decide which bridal shows to go to? I don't know if they give you a prize for it. The best bridal shows you're going to look for what I call media kids from the event, and they should be able to tell you here's how many brides come in here's the average wedding so to me, if a bride, if the average wedding is thirty grand or more, I'm usually going to be at that show, and if they bridal shows I do, they'll have typically anywhere from five hundred to fifteen hundred brides that's how I'm making my decision and I'll try any rational ones, it doesn't work, don't go back, I don't be afraid to fail and that's important for everybody out there are just so you understand, I have failed more times and I've been successful and I think that's important for all of us, we cannot be so afraid and paralyzed by our fear failing, we're all going to fail just grow from all right, so that was perfect also, I think that's a killer like ending line right there, so thank you, thank you so much for being here, everyone