Shoot: Roof Top Grunge Engagement Look
All right, so we saw downstairs that we were pretty much shooting for the parents and getting all safe shots now it's out a chance to play so what I've got here is really just a couple apple boxes, a painting sport sheet in the background t make it look as if we're on a catalogue photo shoot so it's a fashion shoot we're on this we're on this fashion shoot and we've got out to two model so in terms of the look I'm going for a lot more of a grungy look now it's a it's a it's a look that's going to be maya's has changed we've also done a change of hair for for sean the clothing is changes well, like I said, I need to change the look so that I've got three distinct looks on dh yeah so in terms of the look that I'm going for now downstairs we shot with ambient light very easy lighting reflector window light not difficult at all. Now we gonna up the ante a little bit I've got the ellen from ranger it's, the rx battery pack and basically that's giving me studio lighting on location it's port...
able I've got a deep octa soft box here it's giving me gives me a really nice fashion field to the lighting a lot of people are going to say that they can achieve images like this with speed, lights and soft boxes, however, it doesn't quite look the same. So it's great for my brand to have this great equipment shooting images that are shot with the same equipment that fashion photographers use. It gives the gives the impression to the client that, you know, this is the real deal and that I'm a real photographer and I need to be taken seriously right now in terms of the ambient light that we've got going on here gigantic soft box we're in seattle is a lot of fun going on at the moment, which is great for ambient light, but what I'm going to do here now as I'm going to introduce the soft box to combine the ambient light with the studio with the studio flashes, so to start off with, we're going to start off with maya again for the same psychological reasons as to why we started off with meyer the first time round, so okay, all right, so my other look that we're going for now really is a bit of a guess. Jeans, campaigns, that's a lot more sexy. The looks are not happy and vivacious. It's a lot more sixty and just be careful you don't fall down off the backyard is a little ledger here so right? So we're over here and literally it's it's ah it's about this kind of thing you want to bring in your your thumb into your jeans and a very sexy but but I don't want it to be infantile I don't want it to be expected I don't want it to look like fashion one o one it needs to needs to look real as if it is specifically for a fashion shoot so you're going to shoot a couple shots like that we're going tio some full length portrait we'll do some hidden shoulders and then we're gonna bring in sean and mix it up with the two of you so I'm going to die guide you through it just in terms of my lighting as I say I'm shooting with the studio flashes here I've got a set of pocket wizards that I need thio trigger the studio flash and shown my assistant if you could just turn the power up on uh on that for me that would be great just go up to like like four okay, so what I'm really looking to do is balance the ambient light with uh with the studio flash so just in terms of the look can we both of your your your child's legs into the boots so it's a bit more of a grungy look uh, more of a biker look and yeah, don't put both hands into the pockets keep one hand in the pocket on the other hand, that's that's beautiful now, in terms of the lighting that's on her now, it's it's great, but it's easy. Anybody could do this what's going to distinguish me from others. Photography is is the fact that I'm bringing in this type of lighting so my very first shot needs to be a test shot. So as you are, I'm just doing a test shot for the lighting. I want to be on two hundred. I'm on manual because I'm shooting flash I'm on manual and I'm probably gonna be on if eight to start with I'm on two hundred shutter speed. I'm just gonna have a look through and see what the ambient light is doing and I am two thirds of a stop under which is great because I want to compensate with that by filling in with the flash, so I'm purely like test for now, all right? Hold it. Just like that carried it worked. It worked. Fine. The flashlight, right. Cool, let's. Have a quick look at that. And I am. Over exposed on her what I could do was compensate because I think that the whole image is quite bright. I could I could compensate by going up on my uh upon my appetite so I want to shoot them on about if eleven now and just have a look at that again just in terms of my lighting right we good they're all right let's have a quick look at that much better and you can see that there's a bit of contrast in comparison to the image when there was no flash at all so right so what we gonna do here now? Just five or ten different different shots and I like what are like from what you were doing earlier it's just to have that body shape where it's very very draped not not great posture that's beautiful, very nice and sixty that's stunning keep it just like that right there we go. All right everything's working and we can go we can shoot away here that's cool. Okay, keep it like that beautiful that's nice good stuff. Okay, standing straight onto me like this put your hands down next to next to your side like this and then just turn your wrists towards me I want to talk to you a little bit about not too much just yeah that's beautiful there we go very stunning keep it there all right maybe foot next to each other like this and then you just that's perfect beautiful very cool chin up a little bit for me that's brilliant just like that and you'll notice that I'm getting other things into the image that uh right there technical difficulties yeah that's cool. All right, so you'll notice that I am shooting with other things in the way here in fact, I might just bring the c stand in over here I'll be back in a sec trying to soothe all right? We're all having a couple of technical issues with the, uh with the firing of the flash it does happen, andi it's kind of how you deal with it that matters really? Okay, so we all get we're gonna get a sink cord instead of using that way shouldn't take too long. Can we take some questions? Maybe in the meantime okay, so and oh yeah. So first question bread this is something that we often liketo ask for instructors how much pre visualization do you do on these types of shoes? Do you sketch things out before you come to this? Like these location shoots or in the studio let us know how you feel about it. Well, that's a great question. I probably should have gone over there a little bit early on great create mood boards oh, tell us about so yeah, I will facebook stalk my clients and then create mood boards for the three separate looks, so in my mind, I already know what the three separate looks are going to look like and the tops of images going to shoot for those images. So, like you saw early on as I'm shooting, I'm thinking about what's going to go on this side of the page and then what's going to go on that side of the pages will so already what? Already? What I've got in my mind over here is I'm gonna do a couple of shots off my honor are in there, I want to do a couple of shots off sean on his own, bring the two of them in together, and then, like, we did a little early on, play around a little bit with the interaction between the two of them. So in my mind, I do have a story that is prepared, and that and I create mood boards for each separate, uh, each separate segment, okay, and follow up question from hand t is wondering, do ever advert advisor clients on what to where and bring to the shoot? Yes, very much so I'll make sure that the client brings a variety off changes, you know, I will say to them that, you know, the first look we're going to do is maybe a bohemian look and in the second look for example like we did with that engagement shoot with out of africa meets tommy hilfiger bring you know three or four different changes of clothes and I will choose which that becomes part of the experience you know the clients enjoy that part of the experience is well it's uh they see it as that I've really taken an interest in the shoot and it's a lot but I thought in depth about the shoot excellent right there we go all right we're back to wyatt okay right so let's have a look okay that's cool very nice just like that thank you sure it's cool very good right keep it there okay all I'm really looking for is one killer shot from this from this little sequence going on over here um I like like something like this we've that's it there we go that's beautiful that's cool good job keep it there and all right very nice okay so we've got that shot over there perhaps you want teo sit down on one of these the crates of a hand off then I pull boxes so get down over here and then maybe something like this you know this kind of shot is quite masculine and it's about her what about the ring here we go here we go let's get this little don't put on this piece. Yeah way good alright cheers. Thank you. Alright, that's um ordinarily I would shoot this this shot right now but I think it's a little bit too masculine and a little bit too predictable so sit up a little straighter put the one hand onto your onto your five because I just want to see the detail in the ring yeah we've specifically bought in this great jewelry yeah that's it that's cool which is a nice soft feminine touch to the rest of the rest of the shoot that's what can come in a little bit I don't want to shoot spread you know into her coach that's beautiful very cool hold it just like that it's all right I think this is a shot this is the killer yes that's lovely shawn can you just bring the flash in a little bit and bring it down a little lower for me that's nice good job call turn your face this way round for me please. Lovely thank you that's it and nice okay and when I come in for a little close ups so you can hold on to your collar maybe pulling your collar out a little bit that's that's cool and I need to see that ring a little bit will bring it into the shot okay, so I'm very away off the pieces and the styling bring that shoulder towards me that sort of chin into the shoulder this way that's a great stuff perfect hold it there and more of the rings to bring the head yeah that's a very there we go that's it lovely this hand here just bring it into your neck and just keep it in that's nice into your neck there but then just bring their hand in and nice and softly with on the face that's called there we go that's it that's brilliant stuff chin up a little bit for me I'm a little worried out of her hand might there we go that's the shot killer stuff beautiful chin up a little bit yes, right I'm very happy with that. I don't need to shoot too much more of that I could get shown in to shoot his his individuals here as well. So sean in you come please let's get rid of these apple boxes, okay? And, uh sean had seen sean had seen what was going on with with what maya was doing so he can I mean he's already doing it so we don't have to worry too much about shawn shawn just come across this way a little bit for me so that I've got the ages and I've got the c stands in the shot. Yeah that's very cool thanks. Uh, shawn, if you could just move that around for me a little more and and pump it up a little higher again that's cool remember, I've got my lighting setting so I don't need to worry too much about that on only to check every single as you're standing there perfect keep it just like that great stuff keep it that way yes even mohr even more contrast we could go to the side even more because it's a guy we can put a lot more contrast onto him not shawn I need to say the same distance away from him so just go ok that's cool and then twisted in towards him whoa okay, here we go that's it that's fantastic there we go very, very cool get to the edge a little more there yeah that's it there we go all right and I'm just going to let him go with with what's going on here that's called maybe use your pockets as well that's it I like it very nice is a good job and I know that possibly a lot of people are thinking that ordinary people wouldn't do this but they really well and I mean that sincerely I've had a lot of clients said our loving these kind of engagement shoots that's a very cool and I like the jacket was coming off so just hold on to the jacket, let it hang yeah that's cool right good job keep it there and very nice keep it like that okay and right so I've got my safe shot now I can play around a little bit I've got what I need from him. No, I can use a couple of techniques that I've seen in fashion photography where like I spoke to you about jack via as being one of the people that inspires me this is a scientific prism it's it's really a prison that you by force for schools I bought this online and it creates some incredible images because it reflects off all sorts of different things so I'm going to use that just hold it in front of the lens just just keep it put on one shoulder this one that's cool and I'm just gonna hold it in front of the lens and just see what type of imagery I can get from it. That's very cool. Hold it there. Okay? And that is that is gonna be a really nice shot. There we go. Can you see? I've got the urban feel from it. I've got buildings coming into the shot it makes it look very much like those those shots I showed you originally in the show you where my inspiration comes from so it's pretty unpredictable with how you do this so let's just go with this we're gonna shoot a couple more just to see what what happens here that's very cool hold it there for a sick nice okay it is I could even go to the other side you know I got a cameraman in the background that's work for me that's going to add to the effect that you have a look at that there you go that's going to add to the fact that we're on like a photo shoot so there's like a behind the scenes thing that's going on there as well that's cool on dh very nice shawn very cool all right so I've got enough of him standing I might have to do a couple of myrrh like that because I can't just have shown with the with the president just wait a sec minds wanna get him sitting as well so unjust grab um an apple box and bring it back into the middle of the night sorry sorry sorry that's cool right okay so yeah that's it and yeah there we go that's cool right sean can you bring this a little bit more around this way to meet you need me to help you there all right that's cool alright we'll fix that in the sick okay just just keep holding onto it first all right so I need to shoot without the prison first and you know then I'll shoot with it all right so here we go way that's cool keep it there very nice it's a little open in in the front or turn your body a little sideways for me yeah that's it that's cool that's brilliant and then just looking that way for me nice I like that a lot that's cool right hold it there and let's bring the prison mint uh you can shoot anything I'm gonna just use different objects to show you what your candor uh let me just do a couple more because we have done this already in the shot that's nice we've got a bit of the air conditioning coming into the shot there it is very cool hold it there nice that's it and it's bringing onto the other side maybe that's it hold it they're perfect let's see what we've got there and I think we've got quite a good mix yeah we got quite a good mix of what's going on there and I think it'll work really nicely in context we've got a couple of pictures of hit off her a couple of pictures off him so let's get maya back into the short ear just to do something with the prism as well it started with you sitting down there because it's gonna work nice tea over here uh let's get this box a little bit further back don't fall off maybe put your foot you're one for the revelation all right so we've got her sitting down and what we'll do over here is we're gonna get the prism in all right so let's have a look that said spirit awful very cool and I could try and go even more extreme in terms of where I put this that's nice very, very nice hold it there I think this is the shot and if I've got the shot I don't really know it need to move on too much that's beautiful I'm happy with what I wanted to let this get you standing up hey maybe get the one foot up onto the box yeah no no other let sorry other leg yes that's it that's gorgeous okay hold it just like that that's cool and that hand onto your legs so I can see the ring just let it hang over your yeah and then just lean forward on there we go that's beautiful in your hand towards me a little bit more that's it that's cool chin up a little bit lovely stuff folded like that I was gonna get the butt of the skyline in the background okay and wait all right two of them together enough okay, right. You come there, sean all right, I'm just gonna, uh, sort this odd it's just coming off here it's just dropped this a little bit has come down with me way good luck, ok, right up you go there, okay, so in fact what I've just seen here right now with shawn turning with his back to me is going to work quite nicely for me because maya's hand I think from this side can come up onto his shoulder here and come in over there and looking down in that kind of thing over there the sand can come on teo but if you want there because we lifting we're upping the ante here in terms of just like you're holding onto she's that's cool my head in nice and close next to shawn looking down at the ground get your head closer to him you your whole body meyer yeah that's it that's cool right let's have a look at this I'm loving the president effects are like I don't even want to shoot too much like this that's cool on dh okay maya, if you can look if you can look at shawn that's getting nice and close a lot of tension get your heads that's it very cool. Okay, we're doing it right there with the flesh firing ok, go up a little higher with that he's okay? And maya no smiling, very sensual, very sexy. This hand can come down a little bit onto him and I need your fingers to grasp into his year he's your man you're holding on to him. Okay, there we go that's cool, hold it there that's very nice good job stay there just like that uh well, I like that ok from there that's quite nice there that's working perfectly all right good job hold on to his whole bunches arm again bring him in close that's it and I need a lot of sex appeal from you that's it beautiful while they're there I might as well shoot to the prison modern fto only I don't have to do the only in sections so let's go in over here and bring that in because I need to have a bit of a theme going obviously as I said okay that's cool on dh beautiful it's come on this side maybe that's it very cool that's it there we go that's nice and a couple more like this okay instead of having instead of having shawn's back to us turn your back on that as you are as you are that's cool okay that's nice my opening body toward or like that grab onto her you see they're really just getting into it and I don't really need to direct them too much and if that's happening just let it happen just let it go with the flow they okay that's cool that your arms just hang there maya next year had said that's cool beautiful very, very nice keep it there that's good and ok sean with this hand here don't hold on to her jacket hold onto her face more let's get that collar away from her face yeah, even a little bit more let's see some more skin there that's cool right that's it beautiful keep it like that just watch your thumb pushing her cheek up too high but yes that's a very, very nice good job keep it just like that okay, hold it there love it. I'm I'm taking a little bit of time because I need to make sure that the prison is in the right place because I'm just loving the effect that I'm getting from it. Okay all right that's cool that's beautiful just like that there you go, that's nice all right, guys I need you like very, very close, very intimate almost kissing just hold on to his face I with your right hand there yes. So you bring and even even when you put your as we're going through it put your face up to his hand even let your fingers go into us math a little bit okay, but just wait a sec wait, you're gonna be okay that's cool right here we go. Here we go. Right that's it in nice is there we go that's it sure beautiful they regard lovely stuff. I like that a lot keep it there liking the here going all over the place too that's working perfect here it is, that's it on okay, I think you get the picture you could go on all day loving it like this we could go on all day all right? So I've got enough shots for that um there's just one little thing that I'd like to do in terms of the story that I had in my mind so the story that I had in my mind was shawn was just sitting here okay so sure you're going to sit on the apple box every day with your butt over there and your feet ok, can you bring this around a little bit more for me? Okay, so the story that I have playing on in my mind here is someone's trying to be very, very serious sorry, mike and you come and listen to shorts trying to be very, very serious this just to listen to just listen to what I'm saying okay? So shawn's trying to be very, very serious about this shot and then I want you to come in and try and trying like particular mohr put him off. So so he's like trying to be all serious and much and you're coming in and you're the model on sit and you teasing him a little bit so you're coming in here like this and you like playing her on and like poking him and tickling him maybe a little bit and then he just like don't fall over you know I don't need any injuries but you you can tolerate it for so long and then just grab her you hold until you bring in and you hold it nice and tight and you start kissing getting into her that type of thing okay right so your that side okay just wait a sec with without you first I'm just gonna do sean by himself uh let's have a little look over here that's perfect let me get to this place over here that's cool ah good job yeah that's it okay my if you could go in next to him there okay all right let me just get back a little because I need to shoot this landscape and the reason why I shouldn't need to shoot a landscape because I've been going on portrait portrait portrait need to maybe have a double page spread sorry I just get down a little lower like put your one foot down the one step yeah all right that's cool holding today okay and showing you're looking all very serious came I n you go yes that's it that's cute a little lower down my I need you yeah that's it and just maybe the whisper into zia let's say that's cute not with the hand that's a dairy go right sean she's yours was full of uh there you go that's very cool beautiful that's it lovett stunning stunning okay and as you are there that's the shot just turn your button underneath you more a little bit that's perfect hold it there that's gorgeous and I need one prison shot with this and then we're done with this look to stay day that the body position is beautiful everything's cool over there. All right? Okay, here it is. Hold it there just for a sick that's it and okay let's just do one kind of sexy shot that's it beautiful that they're nailed it all right, thank you if you go and change for your third look that would be fantastic. Yes, you are coming back up here again. Yeah, thanks you guys okay, thank you. That was totally hot. That was beautiful. Thank you. All right, are you ready for some questions for you? All right. So first question up is from robin who asked you to run into clients who are more modest and what do you do to keep it interesting but not too risky within the target market that I'm targeting? You do still have a spectrum, so I'm not targeting the same exactly the same client every single time. So I'm not going to I'm gonna be able to push certain clients and go in a direction where you know, sometimes you got clients and it really seems to go a little bit too far and then you've got a lot more conservative client so within the target market that I have I still have parameters that that I need to work with I can't just make people do things that are out of their competence I saw how far I could push these two and I think that's probably as far as I could have gone with them I don't know if they would have gone any further but also need to understand that it's for them all right way if you are going further, what are you going for? The full we're going further for yourself or you you're pushing them are they're still gonna enjoy the images and I think from what we've shot there that last one is pretty cool I think they're gonna love that yeah that's also yeah, terrific, but I have a two part question okay, so it starts off with do you always do multiple set ups with your plane paying clients and second part is do you always do original set ups with all your clients as faras backgrounds, locations, all that's original sit ups in terms ofthe, uh, duplicating locations if you well okay, um I'm in a very fortunate position that I shoot in a lot of different locations because I shoot internationally I'm not often in the same location, however, if if if it does come to that and I'm comfortable in that space as long as I know that that bride isn't connected to the other bride they're not then I'll go and shoot in that spot again I might not do the same poses but I'll definitely if I know it works then yes I'm gonna I will go there um but I need to make sure that the bride and there's those two brides aren't connected that they don't know each other at all in terms of originality ofthe concepts I don't come up with my own context it's all stuff that I've taught myself looked online um uh fashion editorials dot com and magazines and just looked at those images for inspiration so yeah in terms of originality most of my ideas are not mine they come from fashion magazines great and you'll and you'll do multiple set ups without paying client always great three three set up three sets great three set ups because you can see that that almost looks like a completely different day and um it really is it really is different in terms of the terms of the look that we did downstairs completely different so it looks like three completely different different shoots and in this in the in the in the book it works really, really nicely great thank you and give us a little bit of a time frame how much time you know you have high paying clients three hours, four hours. What do you like exactly what we're doing? No. Okay, I would spend that amount of time on each set up so it's also very important on dh this does happen with with high end clients that they do have a makeup artist they do have a hairstylist so way have a makeup artists and hair stylists here and we'll talk about collaboration but what I've done with I'll make up artist today on and this is this is very much about collaboration is I've given the makeup artist carte blanche to do her thing because if she's doing her thing on I create great images there's a lot more chance that she's going to use my images for her marketing purposes because it's work it's work that resonates with her um a lot of the times we had dictated to by clients and the clients will come to us and say there's a photograph copy it and very similarly to makeup artists and florists on dress designers so if you put a situation where you're allowing the people that you're collaborating with if you're lying them to do what they like they gonna I'm respecting her she's gonna want to work with me again yeah so you do end up working with the same people in the same team um more often than not but it works like that because you were all on the same page you saw the makeup was different because it needs to look like it's a different love the first makeup was very, very neutral on obviously we start off neutral so that she can build up on the make up and she knows what each look entails. So she's built up this makeup so she just has to make a small amount of changes to go onto the next look, she's only gonna be away for ten minutes in total is gonna change here, change makeup, change her dress and it's gonna be completely different. Brilliant. Thank you. Fantastic. On a follow up question kind of close. When we were shooting were noticing that you shot a lot of vertical, a lot of portrait. And then at the end, you were very purposeful about saying I want to shoot landscape for a double page spread. What, on average is the ratio that you normally shoot? I need to shoot more landscape. I perhaps should have done some landscapes downstairs to do those double page spreads because there's double page spreads are very impressive because it was in a white background, I might be able to take a portrait and add on to the side off the image to turn it into a landscape. And with the resolution of the cameras that we shooting these days, it is possible to do that, so I'm probably going to do that you'll see in the final reveal how well make it a double page spread but I did make a mistake there and not shoot don't shoot any landscapes I should have shot landscapes that's why when I was doing that I was like neither landscape and I need something is a double page spread which is like a wild shot for each look that makes absolute sense cool. Brett, can you give us a little bit of an idea of how you're gonna change things up for this this third and final segment please. Okay, so where is shawn shawn if you could just break this all down please just take everything away and I'm just going to use this the top over here because this was meant to look like it was a photo shoot. So so this is this is like a photographic sit there on state and we're shooting a catalogue now I'm going to go a lot mohr flash orientated so I'm gonna crank up this uh this ranger this is one thousand two hundred watts or flash output just to put that into perspective, you're your speed lights off fifty once output so you know what that's like what about my matthew there's like sixty times sixty times more powerful, you know, so it's it's uh it's a very powerful, very powerful fresh we did have technical issues uh firing them, but that happens you know and it's about how you deal with it that I mean the client might not have even seen that we did have technical issues going on that I know that a lot of people on the internet would have seen that and you can see something is going on but if things do go wrong yeah it's about how you handle it that that counts right I did have a back up system where I can shoot now with the with the same cord so at the end of the day the images are there it doesn't matter how I how I got there and the client doesn't know that I had a couple of technical issues you handled it very calmly and well syncording let's get ut of live broadcasting things do go wrong and things to wear on often it's understanding your equipment and hyo how your equipment works that doesn't able you to shoot a lot more confident yet cool um do you ever shoot tethered with clients now you'd like to keep that if you keep that that's you know I'm not necessarily it's not really about that it's when you're shooting a commercial work you've got a director who is your boss and they look you know you are direct and art director's looking at the images and seeing where you going right now if I had to do that I don't I don't have a boss which is so cool clay aiken do as much as I like, and I can really I can play on my fed, my fantasy of being a high end fashion photographer, and this is like, you know, I'm a fashion photographer right now, and I don't really have somebody telling me what to do, and the clients are coming to me for my vision, which I find online. Okay, so this is from photo savant how many pages are in the average engagement album? You're probably looking at twenty double page spreads, so with each segment I'm looking maybe a seven double page at seven double pages to get to the twenty s o each look, if you noticed with each look, I've got maybe not appear, but I've got a full length uh then the three quarter, uh, with a couple of different looks in that, so if I wanted to spread it out, I could put a small image on this side of the page and then a different expression on her face on that side of the page. So with each with each look, I'm giving myself options to obviously then going create the final product, but in my mind, three separate chapters and I'd like to be, you know, seven pages per seven double pages, so that's fourteen sides just stay out seven layouts twenty in total maybe perfect awesome okay, so this question here so when you're when you're working with you know we're working with models correct but you're on your often working with just regular folk ok a couple of questions what kind of prep do you give them to help bring this type of high fashion to the lens and how much hands on touching will you do physically with them as you're working with them? Okay, obviously you need to read your client I know that there's a lot of talk on forums about excuse me, please may I touch you? Yeah, I really don't worry too much about that for me it's about getting the image and if I need to show her you need to hold onto his face and come in and get I will do that I would even do it to the guy which show it to her that the reason I'm doing this is to prove to you why we're doing it you know I don't have any I don't have any issues with like coming up to the guy way s doing that kind of thing yeah there's no issue for me whatsoever because I'm showing them what to do if obviously you know if you're a bit of a freak in your hands going to the wrong places then you shouldn't be doing this anyway and you are going to get a rape before that so and you're building relationships with them, right? But by this time you guys are powerless, you know, right? They trust you, it's a trust thing. Wei are dealing with models today. Um, but right in the beginning, you saw I spoke to them quite a lot more. Um, and now now they're getting into it because psychologically, they know where we're going, right in the beginning. I mean, that was the first time I even met them this morning. You know, I hadn't didn't have a pre waiting meeting with them or anything like that. So so, you know, it is that they are emotionally vulnerable, right? So once you've got them into us into a space where you've done the safe stuff now, they starting to enjoy it, and then you'll see it starts to get a bit more animated, and they really start getting into it, and then you're like, okay, well, that's, a wrap.