Your Website: About Page
So you're about paige you're about paige I mentioned before, I really believe is a critical part of who you are. People don't hire you because of what you do. They don't hire you because of your wards, they don't hire you because of your gear, then a higher because you want what you got started. And the problem is that if you spend too much time talking about yourself, you get pursue perceived in a totally different way. Then you thought you were you didn't mean to say that you didn't want them to think you were some kind of ego maniac on a trip because you want x amount of boards of awards, so you're about page becomes really important and it's really important, because what they want to know about is why you do it. They're interested in whether or not you can see the world through their eyes. A bride wants to know that you can be trusted to get that shot of her grandmother, another family member that might be hiring you. Mom wants to know. Are you going? Are you going to see? My daug...
hter is beautiful? Is I do? Are you going to be able to tell this story? Did I know that I tell you that that she was sick as a child and you know we almost lost her a couple times and it's the wedding day is such an important day and I'm using weddings is example because it's just so easy to explain what the client is if you're talking to a commercial client for example, if your cock it talking to a a car dealership and the owner of that car dealership built this thing from scratch when he only had, you know, fifty bucks and one used car that he bought from a buddy is and now he's the largest chevy for jaguar whatever dealer in the area he's got the same pride and you photographing his business and his products and his staff as that bride's mother does in her bright if you're talking to somebody that's got that's got this dog now that they've had for ten years and they know they're not going to have a long they've had the dog since the puppy there's the same pride this dog has been around has been with mates a member of the family it's all the same pride and the client wants to know why you're a photographer I don't believe that they care about and I've seen it a lot on a lot of sites where photographers would talk about how they get started there's always a line in there somewhere that says I've been interested in photography since I was ten years old and my uncle got me my first camera if you were talking to a room of a thousand photographers that would really be relevant if you're talking to thousands of brides or if you're just talking to one bride how you got started she doesn't she doesn't care now you can make a compelling point you could argue it all day long I'm not going to buy it I'm of the belief that they want to know that you understand them that you believe in them that you can empathize with them, you're going to work the hardest you've ever work work I believe they want to know that they're going to speak scene is unique I believe they want to know that their album is going to look different than every single album they've ever seen before I want them I think they want to know what their experience is going to be like that it's going to be a wonderful experience which leads me to we're going toe I want to set the stage for you because this is the perfect time and that was was that my cue? Okay, justin maran's dot com don't go there because you blow up their website what we did discretion matthew jordan smith site oh no so every time I talk about somebody site we crash it pretty much that's great, pretty much ok if everybody would do me a favor, can I do this right now go to comcast dot com I'm having a fight with comcast over my cable I'm tired of the nonsense no, don't do that I just incite a riot the power of the internet justin mary marantz our wedding photographers in the northeast, they're in connecticut, they're great photographers, they put together what I believe is the greatest about video I'm not saying everybody has to have a video, but I want you to listen to what mary says in this video and watch it and pretend for a second that you're watching this through the eyes of a bride or the eyes of the mother of the bride and that's the cue he takes my hand and you walk out into the uncertain out into the unknown but walking always walking in the direction of our dreams I talk and he listened talk about nothing talk about everything talk until the whole world makes sense again and just like that just by taking my hand he's always been able to make the world makes sense again way stand together and he picks up our creighton barrel coco straight dish towel and snaps it lovingly in the general direction of my backside posterior derriere people you watch in algeria on for us this one simple statement has become much less a division of labor and more like a mantra for life for how we take on the world together he may be dirty dishes and kitchen cabinet door standing wide open but I'm three dale glasses of milk on the nightstand on for us it just works I danced to the beat in my own head and he breathes the melody way stand out in the field together as the sounds of a country song float out of the open car door window and onto the breeze he takes my hand and presses it against his chest and mediates and he pulls me in close like he doesn't ever want way get in the car and drive and drive is the miles blur by and he leans over and whispers I still love going on adventures with you with the wind in my hair and the curve of the road I look out the window coffee in hand and deep in and I know I was born to love like this in the silence that is comfortable in the moments in between in the tiny little ordinary everyday nothing's that make up our whole life together on sitting on our couch together with cooper's face in our laps I know there is no place in this world I see I see love because I have no I have been love quietly in fearlessly and without question in the moments when it was most uncertain in the times when it was most undeserved I believe in love with my whole heart I believe in love because I was first left and I have loved in return way are just in a merry photography for people who believe in love because for us it always started with love it doesn't get any better than that you cannot ask for a better message and what's very cool is that if if you guys have a chance at some point in in this industry to meet justin mary that's one hundred percent sincere they are so on target in loving what they do and carrying about each other and when you think about what mary said there I see love because I've known love god if you like on english teacher going through you know the classics yeah I believe in love with my whole heart I believe in love because I was first loved and I have been lot and I have loved in return we're justin and mary photography for people who believe in love because for us it always started with love and if you think about the content in there about who they're saying they are and what they believe in there isn't a bride on this planet that isn't gonna watch that and believe that wow, this is the couple this is the couple that khun really photograph our wedding it's just the message and I'm not saying everybody's got to go do a video like this still motion didn't it's an incredible piece of work and you can see you could argue say, well, you know, I don't know that I like this or like that if you can't argue with it, I don't I mean, I get all sappy and teary every time I watch it that's hasn't had I admitted it's a guy that admits he already got to me, but it really it's it's such a strong message now when you talk about your about sections and this goes to everybody watching today to think about why you were a photographer, think about why you do the things you do think about what got you into this industry, what do you love about it again? People don't care how many lenses you've got in your bag, they don't care what gear you use, you want to share that with them in terms of if you want, if you want to share with them what you shoot with because, you know the couple wanted to know or because they've got interest in photography that's fine, all I'm saying is don't wave it is your banner it's, not it's, not a selling point what's a selling point is why you guys are photographers what got you into it? What what what is there about the human spirit that makes you love documenting that people, what is there about being a storyteller? There was a great campaign that, sadly, they dropped years ago, but people did a lot of research and had this whole people storytelling campaign if you think about it, his photographers, you guys are the ultimate storytellers. I don't care if you're just taking one image for a client, the tells who they are or they're using it for something or you're shooting a wedding a day in the life with kids, you're doing product work, you're doing vacation, travel, work. What you guys do is you are the ultimate storytellers and if you have good images and if every photographer watching today says ok, I'm never going to release a crappy picture again I'm going to make every image awhile print, then we've just elevated the whole bar on the photo industry and that's really what you guys do? You are the storytellers you do what nobody else can do so let's go on and go back into some of these so let's not let's stop for a second let's, just go back is this is the perfect spot to take a couple questions if we've got any. All right, great way crash anybody else's site way crast crashed matthew site but then it was back out ok, it was a short crash way have a question um, about twelve we just started to talk about video, but from tx, doc, skip, what do you think about using a video on the about page instead of writing? So who is a good for? Was a knock it, I think it's fine, I think it's fine, but you've got to make sure that you're about video has the same impact, and by the way you can combine them. I don't know if I go totally video, you might want to have one sentence that leads up to it, or one sentence that closes, um, that that brings it to a close, but I think using a video and you're about section I mean, this is just in the mary, moran says about page now what they've done is they've taken the text from the first section, I can't remember where it cuts off, but they do. They've got the first, maybe thirty seconds or forty seconds of mary talking that they actually have on the website, and then the video is just below it, so you could do it, and I don't it doesn't matter what your business is now, you can't it's harder to do a video as a michael's business here as a business client target having a business client target, I don't know that would be is easy for you to do a video to explain what you do as much as it would be important to show some of your credentials and things that you do in that world and references for them to look at with other clients because it's video because it's different and maybe somebody has some other ideas there and I'm happy to entertain any of those but I think for most photographers as a children's photographer you could talk about you know why he loved to photograph kids you could talk about the fun of working with with children of working with available light if your specialty is on location and doing a day in the life shoot you could talk about that so you can bring your personality and now there's some people that are going to be really uncomfortable I am not endorsing you know, video promo those are video about sections for everybody in the industry for some people it just might not work you're not comfortable with it you don't really want to do it that way that's fine what I really wanted everybody to understand was just in a mary's message here because their target audience once again it goes back to who the target is now this wouldn't work at all if mary was saying and I just love to photograph little parts I just there's nothing more exciting than then spark plugs and wires and it just it it wouldn't work but being able to say to that audience that you've created some of the most exciting images and to be able to show them images and talk about how you like to listen to a product to and how you like to interview the owner of a company and that the story of telling something about somebody's products starts with the manufactured understand what their goal is, so you could you could tie that in together. We're glad you talked on that. There was quite a few questions about, you know what if you're an architectural photographer? It's very easy to be a motive with wedding child photography and even that's, but so I'm glad that you touched on that if I was, by the way, if I was an architectural photographer, one of the things that I might do is maybe it's going to be interviewing a client that I photographed before or photograph for before and talking about, especially with architecture, I don't care where you are in the food chain, be it just starting out as an architect or you just you know, you're frank lloyd wright and you are so proud of of whatever it is you last built it's about pride, it's about being able to get to that client and get them to understand that you understand how important. Their career is you understand how important it is they love to build things to design things you under you understand the ports of innovation, so you might be able to do a video doing in that way, but you also need a good you also need a good company, you need somebody that can help you produce it and create something that has that emotional appeal again. It's too, that client base and you're right, it's really easy to talk about, you know, weddings and love and romance, and yet if it was so easy, why is justin mary marantz is the only video I've ever seen that really gets this message across, and I'm not saying I've seen everybody but it's still something that everybody forgets about and you're saying use emotion and even with the architecture for talking about, of course, that is its pride it's pride you don't think an architect is is excited when they're building or the house they designed or even something is simple. I mean, we've all gotten into hd tv and we all watched all the all the home channel things you don't think those guys, they're just is excited when the couple comes in to see the remodeling job they did on the kitchen or the house or I mean I get a kick out of curb appeal and they take a house that just you wouldn't even walk up to and they turn it into something that's really beautiful they've got the same pride so this is more about being able to identify and show that you understand your client's pride this goes back to just say one more time if I can see the world through my client's eyes I can still my client or myself I can sell my client my client buys it's a great point ok, I will ask question from david carpenter studio I'm not taking any more okay? Dave carpenter studios as I've heard putting a geographical location on your web page is very important what is your opinion on this? Oh god, I'm the worst person to ask on that it was a dave they don't I don't I don't I don't believe that his photographers I don't believe and somebody's going to come back and tell me I'm dead wrong and I will accept it and that's fine I don't believe that putting your geographical location really matters very much because these photographers you guys go anywhere and I asked that before if your client is willing to fly you to the bahamas tomorrow to photograph their event, you'll be there if your client wants to fly you from seattle to baltimore because they've got the grand opening off whatever a shoe store and they want to hire you to photograph that you'll be there so I don't know that it really adds that much I think that every photographer has the ability to sell themselves and the fact that you are the fact that somebody might say, well, you know, your three hundred miles away, I don't really know how we get you here I think if they if you've created images that do target their heart strings, then it's just like any of us that ever bought a car that had more things on it than we really meant to buy, you wanted it if you've developed that need if you've developed that and found that they really, really want your work because your work was so outstanding, they don't want anybody else that's the one they want, it's just like a little kid, I want that new, you know, avengers set, I want it, I want it now, it's the same thing, so if you've created that with great images, they're going to find a way they're going to find a way to pay your fee. They're going to find a way to get your cost over. So to me, when you put up your location, um, I don't think it I don't think it does very much, and I love to hear if you get some responses back that says skip doesn't know what the hell he's talking about tell me I'll be happy to cave on that if somebody could explain to me why it makes a difference, we'll take a look for that but don't look too hard I didn't really mean it. Can I ask you one more question? No from gonna ask it anyway uh that is from holly true, our friend holly down in oregon. Oh, come on, holly says do you have any suggestions for how long a video should be? What do you consider to be too long? And what about having multiple videos? Uh, my feeling is roughly somewhere around the two and a half to three and a half minute mark. What was justin mary's watch? Just a marriage would be like four minutes and ten seconds or something. I think you get to point where the video just runs too long. I've seen promo videos from other photographers and programs generally you've got people's attention span for x amount of time, the ones that a lot of times seemed to be most effective but running between, you know, one in two minutes some of them who that have more of a documentary effect. I have a couple running right now that air from pro photo, that iran photo resource odd that we're going to talk about tomorrow and photo resource hub some of these videos arm or educational I think there's one that might run six or eight minutes there's some of cells that air tremendous the run ten eleven minutes but those air different, they have a different purpose. So in this case, where you're talking about about pieces, then I would go for I would go for one. I would not have three or four or five different videos that they can view to find out more about you that's for you to sell when they actually talk to you get to know you so I'd have one good one and I'd make it three minutes. Michael, you're in this business where you typically find the advice I was given when I put my real together was one and a half to two minutes. Okay? And so I started out at, like, three minutes, twenty seconds and it's all you know, I can't I can't get rid of this and then start chopping and chopping. And like, the last time I looked at I thought, yeah, I could make it shorter, you know? So it's it's like the youtube age, I think two minutes is kind of your max okay, uh, question for myself, actually, you have a question for yourself from do you want me to ask it? Oh, so I want to ask you a question, okay, so I've noticed a lot of photographers don't like to be in front of the camera very often they're kind of they're not, you know, that's not where they feel most comfortable. So when you're doing about me videos where you're really putting yourself out there and you're having to say, this is me, look at me, look at me, look at me, I just feel like a lot of photographers really struggle with that. Do you have any advice about that? I don't really have any advice. It's like it's, like public speaking and getting up and the old line that everybody I used to tell everybody I mean, this is going back to high school yet was all right? Just just relax and picture everybody in your audience naked. Hmm could be good could be really, really bad. It's it's more about it's more about just getting to a point where you know you're going to do something because you think it's important doing a video about yourself is that I put it, um, it's something you have to either be comfortable doing or you're not doing. I think that my video that I did for this program is probably one of the worst ones you've ever seen. I watched cameras, I loved it, I watched jasmine's, I loved it, I saw bambi's she's got a model, their camera, they were great you sent me all these links, and every one of them were first class pieces, and I'm sitting in my living room with a flip video that I keep saying to sheila, ok, hit it now, I didn't have the skill set, I didn't have the camera gear because I've moved not too long ago, I didn't have the network to get people to help me, but I was very uncomfortable and trying to say what it was that I wanted to convey to people on why I thought they should join us today it was it's just hard for me to do. I'm not comfortable with it now this now I'm fine with I'm comfortable with it, I've got a great audience here, I've got people that are not to hang me yet and that's good, but I think it's something that it either works for you or if it doesn't work for you don't force it. This goes back to what I said before, if your heart isn't in certain aspects of this business, then don't do it change what you're working on because you can't create great videos, you can't create great images, you can't give a great message out there unless your heart's really in it, so you can't expect to create things that pulling people's hearts if your heart isn't in it yourself. You know so I never can answer anything short I thought that was a great honor for a long time that was really good. Okay, we're going to go on or you want yes. And before we do I just want to thank justin and mary marantz but also still motion who who did that video and amy seeley who was the musician and they all allowed us to show that on a program so thank you and amy you are my hero and thank you for allowing that and just in a merry they also chased everybody down tracking mary down for release because this video and this is important thing for all you guys too you need to remember that the things that you do show on your website it is important for you to have a release the same way that you'd be upset if somebody was using your photography on their website you need to make sure they always have a model release so it's been kind of a good lesson but amy you are my hero and thank you very much and just in a merry and still motion it's just such a great piece this is like a landmark as far as I'm concerned about pieces for photographers so moving right along let's go into some more websites there I did it again I start clicking one of the things you definitely need to add here is your about peace and out of fairness and just so our listening and watching audience knows everybody in my audience of five has a different background in terms of where they started. I mentioned that when we started today from more established to just getting started and carlos not sure where he wants to go has a great eye great promise it's going to be fun to watch all the stuff you shoot the future but all of you were different and that's what's very cool because out of the well I don't know just in the united states alone the seven to eight hundred thousand people let's say that call themselves photographers it's really exciting that everybody's different they're all different folks say it again. The only thing that everybody has in common truthfully is the passion for the craft so the first thing would be you need an about section that's really important you go from your home page two galleries, your pictures here switch out but it's all of the same dog and again, you just getting started with us and we talked about it and I begged, you know don't change anything on your website until after creative life because it does show a good example what's gonna be fun is to see what you do with it, just like sherry's got a new site in the pipelines that up now next week okay, so new sights and changes or just will be need things to watch um I mentioned this it's all it's all of the same pop when it comes up my shots all the same dog you want to have that variety? I've been on a few sites in the last few weeks again new photographers and in one case, the photographer had only done one wedding so I'm looking at, you know, twenty seven images of the same bride different pose you want to build up that inventory of stash and their different ways to do it you can have images in your gallery from weddings you khun second shoot for somebody in assist you second shooters. Yeah, all right. So cheri use the second shooters in chicago even with a staff of fought six photographers eight all right, I was counting the videographer that never mind however many with eight photographers you still wind up with second shooters that that help shoot. You can wind up so many photographers when they first get started go out and they rent a gown and they rent a tux and they rent the clothes and they grabbed their friends and they should report they should work for their portfolio it's no different with product work you're looking to build your portfolio now you do need to be honest with your clients because your images taken on this perfect day in this perfect location, you need to be able to express that that these aren't necessarily riel weddings, I'm not sure how I'd put it exactly, but I just get so tired and especially happens at workshops sometimes where everybody shooting the same model and then everybody goes out and says, look at what I did, and suddenly it hurts everybody, they just don't see it that way, but suddenly you've got ten photographers, and they all have the same image or same siri's of images that they're showing on their website is their work. It's okay to be able to show other work you've done, but when you showing your website, I try and make it his original, as you possibly can and show good work. And then the other thing I mentioned earlier was just those links go elsewhere, and I'm a huge fan it's already obvious today that I love smugmug, but the issue is that to have those links on your page take takes your client base away from you that's all so I would I would look at that prime real estate and change it. Um, carlos, we talked about your about paige, you're this is you're about nothing wrong with that, but I mentioned the picture before, but here's the thing that that we need to work on, and I remember you and I talked, and I said I'd help you with your about page one word summer school after we had a chance to talk more, you have all the right words or most of the right words in your last paragraph. The reality is, as a young boy, my family would travel to mexico to see my grandmother. Nobody cares doesn't matter what your client really wants is look at the words you use down below. Inspired by my grandmother's, vivid stories and the lack of photographs, my passion for photography began from capturing pressure moments with the snap of the shuttered to stealing a perfect sunset in time, my striped provide individuals that beautiful photographs they can share forever. You've got a lot of the right words and there you've got in your passion across, but it's three paragraphs down the right, you've got the right inspired passion capturing pressure moments share forever it's all great stuff when we get to summer school, and when you get to a point, if we don't this summer school, we'll do it later on the year, but when you get to a point where you say all right, I know what I want to do. I want to do this this is going to be my core business then I will be more than happy to help you just find the words and again it's not that you can't find them because you found a lot of them right there that's a great paragraph but you could go so much farther and the leading up top um I just don't think it has the impact your real meat is three paragraphs down and if you kept what exactly what you have there then I would just switch the paragraphs and put that one up top and then go into you know as a young boy because that last paragraph is the one that really says it thank you over your welcome you picked up the my like all know he's going to tell me but are you picking on my grandmother? Um oh, I think we were just some sorry we were just going here because I had you've got some great pictures of the same dog here and I had brought it up that just to bury your pictures um about as as tecca has aesthetic a aesthetic a sorry as tech it would be a z t so I can do that um it's been a long day this is where you start to get tongue tied I think your challenge here and we talked about it already is just the fact that it's too long it might not be too long for a very technical audience but think about it when you get an email and I mentioned this earlier if it's two paragraphs three paragraphs you will always read it if it's longer than that you'll wait and read it later I think you ought to try even for your business video business you gotta bought boil that whole page down two maybe three really good, solid paragraphs and then if credentials in with your client in that segment of the business or important than you could show that later on so I would I would just boil it down and on your about paige the first thing we talked about this but it's kind of a moot point because you're going to a new site but you okay if I pick on you just a little bit even though it's not there anymore um this is your site you are illusion photography and I would really focus on you and who you are here as opposed to there's nothing wrong in being able to show the pictures and even give one sentence on each one of your clients but they come up with the same horsepower. Nobody going in here really knows that this is your company that this is your site they go in here and they see you is one of six artists five artists that were listed here that's all upset and when you look at that just to take it a step further, we went here to your your page I asked, is that your husband? Who is it again? That's david tutera david tutera, who is like one of the most is like the world's largest, most famous wedding planner okay, so I didn't know who the most famous wedding planner is and a w p p I five years ago and michelle selling tana wanted a pair of jimmy choos I didn't know jimmy was either I'm going it was jimmy too I didn't know, so I didn't know, but I'm willing to bet a lot of clients don't either. Now we share his bio and we did take a shot at changing it ok if I show that good cause it's the next slide sherry's bio sherry graduated from the university of st francis in joliet it was a documentary producer later went to work as the graphic artist for well known chicago television station. That would be really important if sherry's audience were a whole bunch of documentary producers that we're interested in what her resume looked like, but the reality is, um and I need to just move a little because I can't I can't read that on I do have a monitor over there, but it can read it I changed to sherri's I change sherry's bio to say more about who she was after we talked and I understood more about what she was doing and gone through her sight. Being a photographer is all about storytelling and seeing the world through each client's eyes it's about documenting the human spirit, your spirit, which is so unique sound familiar like I've been talking about it all day, documenting memories and turning them into tangible moments you can enjoy for a lifetime is nothing new for may. Having worked in television industry is a documented producer for so many years gave me the under the opportunity to understand what makes each subject so different and so special. Each time I found another artist who understood the importance of each client's story, they became part of my staff. So there's, how we tie in the importance of who sherry has working for and who those other photographers are. We've called them artists, not photographers. They understood the importance of each client's story. They became part of my staff. Now illusion photography is one of the strongest teams of hopeless romantics in the country. We're going to pick up on it again. A great team, a hopeless romantics. Everyone is on the same page with a commitment again remember, I'm only highlighting. The words and read that or just keep buzzwords to catch that tear in a grandmother's I the pride in a father's smile as he walks his daughter down the aisle or the look on a bride and groom's face when they see each other for the first time before the ceremony we specialize in capturing the motion of our clients, their families and their special moments in life a wedding album is the first family heirloom of a brand new family there's co that's quotable and I remember writing that in the very first book that I wrote with bambi cantrell a wedding album tells that story it's so important it's such an important part of who the couple is the wedding album is unique their story is unique the family that's attended the wedding all the friends or unique nobody else sees that couple the way those people do on that day at that event um I hope you'll allow us to help capture those memories and turn them into individual works of art to cherish forever now they're people that will say got kind of laid it on a little thick it's it's it's to sugar and spice I believe that for her client base that a wedding client a bride or the bride's mother who are likely the ones that are going to go searching for sherry and her staff those artists that's those are the things that I believe they want to hear now you could argue that it's too long on dh share I gave it to sharing says you can do whatever you want with it, changes shortened it, use some of it, don't use some of it, but to talk about where you went to school and what you've done in the field of imaging or documentary work for that client. This is where I keep saying, I don't think it really matters. I think what matters is the cherry opens up her heart and says here, so I am here's what I do here is what my people do. We've got a great team here, I think just the fact that you're bringing eight people to summer school, I don't know, maybe we ought to change it to share his summer school instead of skipped summer school. You you're going to know more people there? Well, I was say, going to know more people there than I do because you're going, you're gonna have your whole staff, you go to jared's page jarod's done something very similar, by the way, this is something that I also suggest a lot. Two photographers show a picture of you with the camera. It can be very dramatic like that, but it can also be a siri's of shots you working with a client? It might be a shot if you were children's photographer it might be a shot of you with the camera and the child sitting on the ground doing something I still believe that images that show what you do are more exciting and more interesting to your client base then and you see it in l a all the time every realtor has got this glamour shot of who they are and that's part of los angeles that's part of hollywood and they've got this almost cheesy glamour shot it's like who can be give you the biggest cheesy smile in a real estate ad? And I still think that somewhere out there there's a realtor that could do a really great job with a picture that showed them working with a client even if it was staged that it's going to be something that shows the work better and yet they'd come back and say, well, no, you're really judged by how you look out here and blood blood loss that's that's fine. I just think that when you do a shot if you use an image of yourself which I think everybody should show an image of you working showing image that ties you back in with your camera with what you do for a living, I just think it it's fun it also it shows more of what you're doing now jared took a little different approach um jared had some some great humor on the front end with talking about all these things about he picked up his first camera when he was only eight months old and then he gets all the way down to the bottom is no, no, no that's true but it's so fabricated that jared's humor comes across and when we did your website review, I suggested I keep that it's funny it shows you got a sense of humor and then jared goes into different kind of detail on his ability is an artist um you did use my part of my suggestion on through their eyes I think that's important, I think of more photographers used it I don't think there's any such thing as too many photographers saying it that way because the reality is everybody talks a good game but they don't follow through a lot of the time. The point is that you brought in your personality and who you are and then finished with who the client wants to be or wants you to be rather so don't talk about your awards don't talk about how you got started don't overdo it on testimonials I was on one side and that had nothing do with summer school and I can't think of why but the photographer must have had hundred testimonials in eight point font think about all of us as consumers do we believe testimonials I don't know it's like it's like there's no such thing as a bad reference. I never used to do a reference check. When I was hiring somebody I would call the company they worked for and asked what they knew about them. But if they gave me references very rarely what I call because there's no such thing as a bad reference, harvey mackay wrote about it in how to swim with sharks. I mean, it's a great line, it's I mean, you'd be a fool if you gave somebody a reference that said no, they were terrible, they stole for may they they were terrible employees, so you would never talk about that. So there's no such thing as a bad reference, I don't believe there's any such thing as a bad testimonial, so I would really pared down the testimonials. I don't think they really do a lot for people that take up space on their website. I think you're better off when you, when you're talking to a client to say, if you'd like to talk to any of my previous clients, I'll be happy to give you some references that you can call having some albums there to actually show previous clients that you worked with show different events you photograph. I think would really be important. I think that will carry the message a lot, father for you, then a lot of testimonials, plus, nobody ever can put in the first name, last name, phone number, address of whoever gave that testimony to you. And most important of all, don't let your ego drive your presentation that's, where you get that horse's ass shot from before, when you let your ego drive your presentation, you miss things you miss, really understanding. They're giving the client an opportunity to really understand what you do. There it is again, if I can see the world through my client's eyes than I can sell my client, my client buys, just remember that.