Photo Week 2015 Panel
Hello and welcome to creative live this is photo week two thousand fifteen it is the largest photography online conference of the year my name is ken klosterman and I am your host and where thrilled to have four leading industry experts to talk about the state of the photography industry so I'm thrilled to have with us here chris robinson who is the former editor of outdoor photographer magazine for nineteen years barney britain who is an editor at dp review we have jared schneider who if any of you were watching our west coast bus tour had joined us daryn is from resource magazine and we have pie jirsa who just finished up his class here on creative lives photo week who is winning the founding partners of slr lounge thank you all for joining us today really, really great to have you now this is this is really the time of year where a lot of new announcements are made new technologies air coming out left and right and we just wanted to invite you all here to talk a little bit about new...
products and technologies things like four k drones you're hearing a lot about hearing a lot about that manufacturer may have been in a back seat might be taking a leap forward eso will also will marylise be replacing dslr so lots here to talk about so we're going to go ahead and just get started eso once again welcome welcome, thie first thing that we wanted to talk about was about new products, new technologies and talking a little bit about something that you're excited about or something that, you see is moving the industry forward. So why don't we just start with you pie? All right, so if we think here, um, let me think, but actually have it written down so ah, one of things that I thought was just it's just kind of crazy the rate of, you know, the pace that technology is taking in terms of the change in sensor technology. What sensors are doing these days in terms of the dynamic range of bacon capture in terms of isil sensitivity and doing it in like smaller and smaller form factors. It kind of leads into the next point that I would timei later on, but it's basically democratizing production like it gives everybody the tools to create professional images and in ways that are so simple and affordable. So I think, that's the my thing sensor technology transfer technology. Well, I think you had a little bit to build on that. I agree with pie entirely. Yeah. Agreement, um, it's going on specifically about sensors I'm like a couple years ago, I was kind of scoffing specifically at sony. Because the cameras that I was seeing out of them were like either ridiculous or something about them didn't make sense or many some things about them didn't make sense when you picked him up and shot with it, and in the last two years, I went from being someone who would never think of ever owning us on camera, too like wanting to buy at least three, and I think it's been really smart what they've done, and they kept saying and like their annual reports, whatever, we're going to keep investing in emerging, emerging with, and I don't understand what that meant, because I wasn't seeing it yet, but that meant for them, like building sensors for everybody except canada in fuji, I think that maybe in a couple others, but the main guys all are using sony sensors, and now they're all sort of relying. I'm slipping for that, and now sony is releasing stuff before they give it to someone like nikon, and that, to me is a big deal, and I think that's really cool for sony to be pushing the envelope the way that they have with both megapixels and sensitivity, fourteen stops and forty mega pixels nearly forty people in these tiny little yeah, I'm crazy and it's it's just awesome that we can have stuff like that, and you you on sensors as well, like the new iphones ridiculous to like I love the new one's going to be like the one that comes out on friday I think is even better than we currently have. You're getting the new one a good question what do you have my one that I had just died? I have the six plus and it just died and just got replaced on like, hold on, but I'm also of the boat of, like there's, so much amazing technology coming out at any point time that I feel like it's very easy for us to, uh, get gas your acquisition syndrome? I don't don't know yeah, yes, I've never heard that before. Yeah, I've got gas, so like we get into these faces were like, we just constantly want to upgrade and upgrading upgrade and like, I kind of find myself just holding it back a little bit just kind of saying myself look like photographer were using, you know, they were doing what they're creating amazing images with literally nothing compared to what we have today for decades. And so I find myself kind of saying, like, you know, just because the latest in grace thing comes out doesn't need metzer me nothing to go home and buy it, so I'm kind of trying to read it in a little bit so let's, talk a little bit more about the sony, because that a seven to our is seems like so many a lot of professionals are taking that on, which, which does seem a very new thing. Do you think that's something that the math sort of consumer market will understand, that sony is, is somewhere to go? Or is it? Do you think it's going to start sort of top down? You wanna go? Well, the city's dominance of the life center market is is really quite incredible on actually just a minor correction. Sony does supply senses to canada, does supply senses to fuji film the the basis of the extra sensor is also sony, so I think a lot of people might I don't want to turn this into a sony fest necessarily a lot of people already used some your senses and don't even realize, you know, and what happens in the professional end of the market does tend to trickle down very often things like the requirement for faster, more accurate focusing and usual speed. All of that trickles down is processing power becomes cheaper into lower and cameras. It was like the cannon strategy, I mean, that's, why the rebel is so popular, because everyone has, like, they want the five d three, but then they'll go get the rebel because that's a little more affordable and portable and part of it is marketing part of it is simply that technology becomes more readily, well, cheaper. You know, a time as time goes on, so when a certain amount of processing power cost you a certain amount of five years ago, it costs a fraction of that now, so enthusiasts now could have professional level performance like everything I say, it would be more meaningful, but you're totally spot on like like you look a like what professionals were using twenty years ago and I don't think it's comparative tio even like a five hundred dollars dslr today. So it's crazy, how the drink talking of the new iphone? Just a little bit of tension before k video in your pocket, you know, no androids have that for a while. Come down in this answers. I mean, this sensitive becomes so very good and it's the rest of the cameras and all the ancillary accessories and lenses of all, you know, really stepped up on dh. Sony really has done some extraordinary things with these new, newer sensors and actually building cameras around them that are more more capable. Um, you know, we've all heard stories of professional photographers who have traded in, you know, canada, an icon and and onto a sony a seven system and it's, because the image qualities air so good and the rest of the package, the rest of the system is not keeping up. One of the tricks that sony again not a sudden had advert, but one the tricks that sony is pulled off in the a seven r two is third party of water focus support so almost doesn't on accident of design if you use for now, I think I believe only canada if you use a cannon e of lens on a sony, a seminar to with a certain kind of adapter, it'll actually auto focus using phase detection or focus so it's not wobbling. It's, not hunting, is actually pretty much coming in the lens it's up there with your expectations of that glass on native cannon body so straight away there is just there's no pain point at all, and assigned spending three thousand dollars on the there is there is really no energy barrier to actually shifting systems with regards to f so we want you to buy sony lenses, but you can if you need to continue to use the current glass. For however long I feel like that's going to be a huge reason why people would actually shift, because it seems like so many people stay true to a particular brand because of their lenses, not a body. And too many bones is huge in this and now that they're actually thing we'll do out of focus to just about every single one of their adapters now auto focus is pretty darn reliably so I'm not familiar with many bones what tell me oh so they're these little adapters you can get I use pass ideas for for a lot of my filmmaking and it allows me is all of my old f glass directly onto it and it actually makes the field of view slightly wider and makes it slightly faster so my one four lenses becomes a one two lens and been in most cases that's much better and if it's the only problem is it kind of shifts everything down so I can't stop down and super bright lights I just get a filter for that andy filter its adapts it but some of them like the one expansion has a have a condensing lenzen effectively so you no longer have to deal with horrible field of view crops if you put them on michael four thirds or a psc cover stuff coal company so what are some of the other new big you know technology things that are or products that that we're excited about? Britney well that's a new one this's this is related to sony again not a sonya but I think just talking about what we talked about about mirrors and almost we need now is a credit to people like something end indeed simpson that way talk when we talk about marylise that's really who we mean now, but there are some things that marylise as an adulteration of technologies allows you to do, which are actually having a really significant impact upon photographers, even if they don't necessarily realize so as pixel counts of increase of the past few years to serious problems with dear solares emerged which always bean there but not really being fully study recognized by enthusiasts for beginners warner's autofocus accuracy which honestly, above twenty four megapixels I can just be a crapshoot and the other is shutter and or mirror induced vibration, which had very high resolutions like twenty four thirty six you know in above can have a serious impact on a resolution because it shakes checks, picture and actually, if you're shooting test chance like we do a deeply review all the time nailing that down almost literally actually in the studio, we have to await the tripods down and put them on special services everything else to dampen the vibration from a shutter. Whereas marylise cameras obfuscate the entire issue, you can have fully elektronik first guest electronic capture there's no mirror flapping around on because the focusing is done on the sensor you don't have to have a second focusing sense there was a sort of tolerance is and everything else you don't have the f and accuracy issues started micro gesture lenses didn't really matter ten years ago is hugely important now and anyone who shoots cannon five d s five years are william cameras but you've gotta focus than like medium format cameras you really really do and the nikon d eight hundred eighty eight ten of the same where is jason up another problem is all done in the senate so I mean so what other people think about that notion of the marylise camera is taking over dslr I thought you're going to talk e was thinking can I talk it's impossible will go a while ago I was all about the crowd who was never going to go mere lists like I was a huge cannon dslr guy and it was because the center focusing you're talking about with so wildly inaccurate and the hunting and the missing was just too much for me um over the years they've gotten a lot better at it I like samsung they do a really good job with it so I'm not going to listen to a sony advert anymore samsung does an excellent job on center not a hijacked but samsung deserves a huge amount of credit for a lot of the same technological developments of the last couple of years uh so yeah I agree with you that I think now I'm totally on with ditching that mirror because it's kind of holding us back now yeah, I agree completely it's a couple years ago, you would have, you know, contrast, detect a f systems and you'd have these companies would come out and say we have the fastest a f system. And sure enough, from infinity to close focus, that thing would go a ce fast as any other a f system that was wouldn't find anything on the way. But it would go there and, you know, in low light and and all sorts of conditions the's on focus or rather on sensor f systems are just becoming so, so good, and it really is going to be the thing. I think that finally does put the knife in the back of the of the mirror. But also on sensor phase detection system is a crucial difference. They're not just being speed of acquisition, but there's no hunting it's essentially a similar crime almost off what the deer slayer is doing with a dedicated censor. It knows how far I know something is out of focus because it's too far away versus how to focus it is because it's too close. So contrive a lens straight there normally, if anyone use has used the first generation muralist cameras. Two thousand eight nine ten they hunt a lot they wobble the very quick if you wanted to go straight to someone but you can see right at the end they go back forth they wobble whose face detection systems given enough light don't need to do that so the advent of phase detection systems on sensor is is amazing and nick on entity deserves credit for being the first people aspire to recall the first manufactured to get there but it makes a huge difference makes a lot of sense no I mean I was going to say on the marylise point that the crazy part is that it's only been a few years like since marylise was introduced the way it has come in when I first got I think the first journalist I used was a panasonic and then it was a sony and I could still see like where the dslr was need like it's necessary for my work and even now they're still like certain comforts that I like um like I still love the way that you know just the dsr screen interprets and image especially when you're doing flash me doing a lot of like things with adding light and so forth. A lot of times the live previews and sensors don't have like on the wireless cameras the graduation of color isn't as detailed and so like a look at an image and I'll be like do I have detail there's a blown out or what is that can't tell so they're still certain things but like every one of these benefits of a dslr like have just been whittled away and it totally makes sense in a few years why would take over because it's it's a simpler system in terms of like mechanically you do have as many things that are going wrong and so forth and but by the way, if you have your marylise the first mistake I made was I had hospital lenses all time ideas a lot and I used to do it on my marylise when I first got one with it on and if the sensors on so it attracts dust so like I got my marylise and in thirty minutes later why they're dust spot everywhere in my photo because those protect turn the camera off turn the camera what they recommend, but I just recently saw that they're certain drones right now that can actually take full marylise cameras up with them and and I wanted to move on to that topic of the new drone technology and what's coming with that, you know, well, drones song that I want to talk about because I'm incredibly excited about what's happening in the drone business I mean drones have been revolutionary past years we all know but we're kind of entering the next phase of aerial photography with the drone, which is now you don't have to be an accomplished pilot necessarily I'm saying everyone shouldn't practice and become better it flying these things that they are essentially, you know, flying lawnmower flying machines but you know we're developing systems now that are more and more making the the pilot's skill less and less important and the drone itself is becoming more of a photography platform so that you know you without a whole lot of practice without a whole lot of of skill you khun great really interesting images and really interesting video I'm particularly excited about it because I'm a terrible, terrible pilot and I've tried to be good I've built my own drones and partially because I keep crashing them and you know, kind of the new developments that are happening here are really I think in a change photography and I'm talking about sort of on the aesthetics I we talked about about the technical side of getting deep into pixels in this panel I'm really excited about what's happening on the aesthetic side because this is going to create a whole new way of seeing the landscape you know, I came from outdoor photographer where, you know just getting out be able to trek to some far off places was a really difficult thing to dio a drone now I'm not talking about so much as for creating fine art imagery, but as a scouting tool it is also an incredibly powerful tool so I'm really excited what's happening in the drilling business right now, the crazy thing about drones is, I mean, can imagine, like, so all these tools are becoming so insanely affordable, and we're talking about just before the panel that, you know, legislation is going to come into play and it's going to have a major impact, and I agree that I don't think that legislation's going toe kind of say that nobody can use drones by the same time if you imagine, like, if this many people have drones now and in ten years from now, let's say you can pick up a four k drone for two hundred bucks everybody's gonna have these things and there has to be some rule in play for, like, when there's two hundred these flying up above your neighborhood like and there's kids around and like, they're just crashing everywhere, and so it'll be interesting, like where that interest that industry grows from a legislative perspective. I don't really see how that plays out because that's, you know, that's happening right now the you know, there's been the noticed recommendations that were issued earlier this year, and we're expecting some final rulings, maybe later this year, maybe next year on dh. It is possible it's conceivable that drones will be, you know, shut out of, say, the u s market I don't think they'll be shut out worldwide and I wrote a block post actually on this some time ago and one of the things I really concluded was just common sense if everyone would just apply a little bit of common sense it's asking a lot but you don't fly the drone into the white house it's that they don't fly the drone into the schoolyard when kids are a recess, what is it that people should be looking for in the future? What are some of the other directions that the industry is going about the drone industry just just just industry yeah photography industry uh, you know, when I was asked this question before the panel and I stand by my answer, I have no idea, you know, in the years that I was with the warner titles outdoor photographer and digital photo pro especially I was constantly surprised by, you know, new technology would come out and someone would be using it in a way that I hadn't thought of that you know, and I'm not the smartest guy in the room, but it's there's always a new wave of looking at things and technology feeds the aesthetic the aesthetic then feeds the need for new technology and so on and so on it's like it is like that e e oh, they don't know what the giggly and dialectic is I don't know what change I didn't really is the only real constant I think everybody knows that right that's easier to understand e that's all right, I think what? I'm curious what you mean exactly by though that aesthetic is changing and therefore the technology is changing I think about the early days of photography when we went we move from, you know, glass plates to have to film and film was ortho chromatic and you'd have these big blown out skies and everyone was no more michael could shoot photos, but you had this problem with these black and white images where the skies were really, really white, so then the manufacturers got involved and they said, ok, let's, develop feelings make them better so that we don't have these blown out outsize and so then you have people that say, oh, now I have a new material to work with I could create different kind of image with it yeah, we keep going forward this way because you said it also works the opposite boy around. I mean, you know, no one would have thought I've seen some drone footage, which I think in my might be enjoying what it is genuinely a new aesthetic and it's only possible because of technology and as soon as you give people the tools they'll they'll use it you know, it's fantastic even smartphone cameras he builds to have a camera in a device that's small that portable for the charge can use images have been taken that could never possibly have been taken anything other than smartphones is wonderful when you and I mean and not just the stills also but from film perspective as well on those devices the film's being shot on the spot friends now it's honestly survives on the stuff I've seen I wouldn't know I wouldn't know it and I don't think it matters but I think that's that's beautiful and I think a lot of that started as a gimmick but now it's genuinely ok, well, wait a minute I can actually use this tool in a very close environment can be shooting very close like this and I'm I'm creating a different look creating different kind of a scene that I couldn't do before change your engagement with subject which is actually one of the number one barriers to any kind of successful flogging documentary photography especially the more you khun breakdown ideally remove that barrier of trust or of intimidation the better your images will be, you know it's it's genuinely revolutionary is it's not you know a lot of us here you know professionally face of this challenge of the smartphone industry is actually does destroying the low end of the camera market. But it's it's really hard to be to be too dismissive? Offthe um, you know, fantastic pieces of technology because it's there's a segway on this, one of the things that I wanted to talk about was that because I found photography or and any smartphone photography at all it's so easily accessible it's actually not taking that just the bottom out of the the the the actual camera mark taking the bottom out of picture market it's, very easy for you to have your photos undervalue that a client who actually said this to me that he was able to get this show he wanted a shot of, like, a train wheel in san francisco, one of the trains, just like I just got it on my iphone, and you could do that, right? Just get it at a higher resolution. It's like e I mean permits and that, but I also know folks who have heard someone say, why would I pay you five thousand dollars to take these pictures? When I could take? I feel like I could take on myself. So the fact that these air so easily accessible and usable it's taking away the fact that what we do is more complicated than that and it's hard to convince people of that when suddenly the camera is doing everything that is true. I think that it's fair to say the bottom has been falling out of that market for a while, that I mean, I signed up. Thank you for shot for picture agency for a long time in the u, k and I signed up in two thousand, two thousand five and already the writing's on the wall then. And that was whatever you know year and a half for the iphone. Actually, the internet is another part of that of that as well. It's probably it's reasonable to blame the smartphone to a degree, but just the the speed with which it would just be disseminated and the low quality the minimum now represents in terms of resolution, not aesthetics. Uh, yeah, that took the bottom out the markets. Stock photography, too, is also really hurting, like custom made images like it's, not uncommon to see someone pay at most eight hundred to a thousand bucks or something that years ago. And it would they they kind of wanted as customers possible, while still being stock years ago would have cost a lot more than that and to actually produce something good. Would still cost a lot more than that, but they don't want to pay anymore because they've been so used to paying stock market prices, stock photography, market prices I still have a country with a big peach library now my most my average sale is this innocent? Yeah, it's ridiculous on images taken along admittedly a while ago, but it's it's because I think the market has changed to a this is the subscription model. Yeah, big media companies just pay a subscription fee per year, so everyone does brilliantly well, except for the photographer who shot the image in the first place. If you take it like, so, let sam someone I'd buy that subscription, I can download the fifty thousand images a month or something like that if I have a subscription and I buy his image, he makes at most three cents if I don't have something, yeah, if I don't have a subscription, you make three dollars, so the amount that he could make is wildly fluctuates and the only person, he said, who benefits are the stock people, the actual company that's still very good, it's very good business to be in this long is, you know, you think you're exactly the struggles of the industry's been facing for for decades, though I mean the smartphone didn't create this you know, it's it's been going on camcorders when they first came out. They undermine, you know, a lot of filmmakers, people that were making I'm talking about industrial films and wedding videos and things like that because suddenly someone could say I could go to the, you know, circuit city at the time and by a camcorder for a thousand bucks. And I could be shooting that's just as well as you can. Well, of course they couldn't, but that's, because photography and and filmmaking has a certain amount of I can buy into it. You know, the prerequisite for being a photographer is on camera and it's a it's, a struggle that the industry faces and will continue to face. Um, that's. Why, I think it's so important that, you know, new photographers now, you know, go to business school, you know, take business classes. You learn how to manage your business because otherwise you just get swept up in this. And you know what you're making today is guaranteed on the same kind of work to be less tomorrow. So you got to find a way to adapt. You gotta run yourself like a business. You have to value your own work. That's a problem pricing for some people that so they don't realize how much money they're leaving on the table. I had a friend who was bidding on a very large commercial job and he bid I think it was sixty, sixty five thousand was in, which is really fair for what they're asking was like for boats, the person who lost to bid fifteen thousand, so even if he had just come up to forty, he still would have won, but look how much money he left on the table, but the thing is that, like, so what we're talking about right now is basically that point I want to make of the democratization, democratization, that's a long word. I don't like big words, the democratization of production yes, gillian, will you explain that to me later? So I need to figure that out, so but basically the point is that it isn't anything new. It happens across every single industry. I mean, lookit, when cars were, you know, first release of the public, how many people could afford cars versus today, what you can buy for ten thousand dollars, you know, whatever it is, every one of these industries is always going to go through this phase of just democratisation, where everyone, the tools of making these pieces of art music films, whatever it is, are going become wildly available to anybody who has one hundred bucks on and it's only gonna get worse and if that's what you're relying on is the gear to make yourself a professional the tiger, then that is exactly why you're going to fail, so I kind of I feel like it doesn't matter like democratization is a great thing. It makes tools readily building it's no it's, no longer a question of like having the right tool is choosing the right tool, it's it's now we have a smartphone that can go anywhere it can get us these close up angles on a film that were nope, they weren't possible ten years ago, and we can get that um so for an experienced filmmaker that's fantastic because it gives them all these new perspectives and things that they couldn't do before and what's gonna happen is is that differentiation for the professional photographer is no longer going to be about your gear it's going about the experience that you're delivering, whether it's an experience to a client whether it's the storytelling component of your final feature film and believe me, it is so easy to tell who can deliver a good experience and a great product versus the average the only difference is the average is just getting the bar just getting raised a little bit higher each year. So let me about photographers walking around really good cameras was something we could still sleep safely in our beds at night, I think you and despite sensors being ableto pick up fourteen, I mean, our eyes do like what twenty twenty plus stops of light could eventually, I'm sure sensors going get there too, but being able to interact with somebody being able to pose them be ableto like them to be a little put light into a scene dealing to create something of value that's, something other cameras never gonna be able to do and that's, we're going, you know, those that can do that are going to really excel and those that understand business and so forth he actually mentioned sorry, no, because lighting is becoming sort of a lost art of photography and it's it's crazy cause that the quarter photography you know, with cameras, we talked about sensors earlier on the highest arranges and everything else on what's happening there there's this disconnect for a lot of people that, oh, I don't need lightning more well and certainly do because light isn't about, you know how much I wanted your throwing it's about balance and whether you can, you know, play with your eyes so arrange or what you've actually got to understand how to balance the light that's in your scene what are you doing it with a candle? A match flashlight you know big ten k you've still got to balance it that's actually always talk of marylise my if I reached for a camera I tend to reach for d a salon one of the reasons I still do actually his light is because it's the optical light path so I'm seeing the color temperature this candlelight I'm seeing candle colored light I'm not saying the cameras attempt to neutralize it through electronic finder and actually that's what keeps a lot of people still using do you think that there'll be a lot of new gadgets or what have you created them for things like the iphone for take to bring people back tio thinking about light or I certainly hope so um you know, certainly there is no shortage of gadgets being created for the iphone and it's a great thing about iphones and smart phones with cameras and in general is just that it's creating this whole new path of technology and people thinking about how to make a better photograph so I hope so. Um I would say that with lighting I'm sort of skeptic because it really does seem to be this this one aspect of a target for the people don't want to learn it feels too much like learning you have to learn how to light like you had to spend time and figure it out and I think that's really creating a certain hindrance, whereas the iphone in general seems to be really pick it up, shoot pictures, throw on this quick accessory and shoot, you know, a wider angle, picture, whatever it's going to be, so I hope so, I'm not I'm not really optimistic about lighting for camera phones was that then the thing that can differentiate people theobald city to, to understand lighting techniques and how to go about using those cameras supports to mean, you know, it's tripods and sexy lighting isn't sexy, but I've see unless you really know what you're doing with, you are limited on, you know, that is that is a barrier to entry, right? I mean, no one wants to go and spend two or three thousand dollars on camera supports and riggs and plant something out there's some things that you can't do unless you do that. I was buying a new camera, buying new lens. That's, fun, that's, nice a lot of this, like, I think in our heads for watching television, we see, like, a really bad local commercial that's, because there was a level of good enough that they're willing to settle for, and that level of good enough is what we're fighting against, so even though we can make something truly more beautiful, are they willing to care enough, I think, for as clients do they care as much as we care and I can't answer that question I want them to I want them to care as much as we care see, I feel like, um, way always talk about how easy it is to get into the industry and we keep kind of like comparing that averages stuff and I feel like if you set the bar so high for yourself and for your studio that there is no comparison like you're up here, you're down here like everybody, I mean, like, how many of us the iphone, inexpensive phones, these air like cars, right way all have an iphone, we all have cars we all drive from place to place, but I don't think any of you guys would say that you're a racecar driver, probably not, but yet we all are pretty intimately familiar with a car and how it would work and so forth, but the level of difference between a performance driver versus a just one of us is so vastly different that there's no comparison you made, and I think the danger that we fall into is not realizing that our images are too close to that average and that's the problem, like the image that we're creating are so close to the average that if someone cannot distinguish it that's an issue and that's where it's really going into differentiation? Because, like, opposing and lighting and all those kind of things that, frankly, they're not the sexy part of when you go buy a car, you don't go, I might have to fix this car myself like, like that's, not you, like you want a car that just works, and it takes you from point a to point b, and I think that's, the majority people that buy a camera, it just worked, it takes pictures, and so to compare yourself, there is really shortchanging yourself, because there's such a vast amount of in between that could be gained and it's gained through education, and that kind of brings me to my last thing, which is that more than any piece of technology that you could possibly purchase. The most effective tool for successful photographer is your education like that's, that's it, bottom line, give me, and we did a professional shoot. I know as starters did this, too. When you're back with them a while back, we did a professional shoot with an iphone, we published it, and then we told people after the fact that I was done with an iphone, and it was after that stoppers, the bears and people had no idea that it could be done with a knife, but it can't so I feel like people are focused in the wrong areas of where they're putting their time, where they're putting their money and they'd be much better off putting it towards educating and practicing. So what do you think are the in terms of education you talked about business, chris? Because I know when we talk about that a lot here on crete alive, that a lot of people maybe get into photography because it's their passion and what have you but then realize quickly that it's maybe ten percent photography and ninety percent business on dh they don't necessarily teach you business in art school in photography school. What are some of the other areas is that you think people, you're you're seeing people not getting educated in e e e first question, what are some of the other areas that you see people are not getting educated in, and therefore sort of not being able to compete or or be at a level that other folks are? I really think what chris said, like lighting is ah, is a lost art form, and so is posing so is like the most basic thing of just learning how to be a human being and talk to somebody like we are it's crazy like we spent our entire lives on the internet. And talking on the internet and showing pictures on the internet that when I see someone in person you're like how do I show them and talk to them things without this being awkward and it's like just be yourself like just learn how to communicate and those things are it's difficult to tell how do you teach a course on I'm gonna teach you to have charisma there's actually really good books on have you heard the christmas really good president the crystal meth is a fantastic book you guys want to learn howto have charisma good luck okay, so letting lighting is fantastic posing is fantastic giving a client a good experience the funny thing about it is that it has very little to do with photography um of course if the images are not good that's a big issue but most clients if they can't tell the difference between ninety percent one hundred percent the only thing that they can tell us how did you make them feel? You know how was their experience? Was it easy? Was it fun? Do they enjoy that? Most of my guys I put a big focus when I go out with a couple put a big focus on the guy making sure that the guys have a good time because I feel like girls in general fraser hand no you're with me I'm not a girl but my wife would disagree that sometimes so girls in general they like taking photos I know that guys really don't. So when I go out in a couple session, I put focus on making sure the guys having a good time and if he's having a good time, she automatically loosens up, which is a good time in the first thing that the guy says to me, is this so much easier? I thought would be and those kind of things are things that technology will never even touch. And so when someone comes north studio we go are you professional or they go? Yes, I have ah, find a mark there and I go great. Let me show you how to use it and let me show you how to be a photographer that can work in the studio and that has most people that come into our studio. They know we have forty photographers, we do it. We're nearly a thousand client commissions a year, um and it's a multimillion dollar business and it has ten percent of that foundation is, can you take a good photo? And the ninety percent is can you take care of your clients? And so that is, and that falls in the lighting and it falls in opposing impulse and everything sure, I mean that's again, that's what people remember to your point, I don't think there's enough emphasis, and I think that there's a reason it's not a lot of emphasis put on this because there's a lot of money and what I'm going to say, it's, not the right thing. Um, if you go to any of the trade shows, we got a w p p I r p p and you see these big crowds of people around, like three specific moves would be canon, nikon sunny, and those crowds of people I think there's a mentality and a lot of them, which is if I listened to this person and tell and by what they're using, I am just like that much closer to actually being that person on that stage talking to people, and I don't really think I'm in a minute by not saying don't really I absolutely don't think that's where you should be aiming as a photographer, you should be aiming to take to do what you love doing what should be taking pictures. If your only goal is to be that celebrity on stage or not, you'll never get it right, and I just I see it all the time and had a conversation with a friend of mine melissa knew about this, and it's just was really weird for me to see that happening. Because it was never a goal of mine to be sitting here talking about this sort of thing that just happened because I'm doing something I love your passion the other yeah, I couldn't make it thanks for britain britney so just don't don't focus on on stage don't focus on being that person that you idolize focus on being you like you were saying earlier just be you it's tough because like you get it's a really strange thing about her industry where you get like all these people that go up and they speak and they talk about it, they personify this rock star lifestyle of a photographer and it does not exist it's not riel and it's something that people are looking for that doesn't it's not present and so like it's always like, you know, we we're trying to focus like try and focus on just your understanding aircraft and being passionate about what you're doing because it takes there's a study that takes about ten thousand hours in any field before you can actually add a contribution to that field. So ten thousand dollars. So are you passionate about photography to spend ten thousand hours to get there? And if what you're looking at is the lifestyle that these people have, I can tell you that you're never going to get there because it's going toe if not enough on by the way, that's if you're working forty hours a week that's five years, so five years, forty hours a week before you can make a contribution to whatever industry that you're in. Um there's a downside to that because that's the malcolm gladwell thing I think is that when you get to the point where you have put that time in, that might be the point where you stop making mistakes, you stop experimenting and there are plenty of photographers out there who stopped being creative because they got too good a pretend side too. There is no, there is no point in the biggest skills deficit that I see isn't it, sir, is actually post because that's something that you never had to worry about with film? You know, if someone messed your film up, they messed your film was if you mess your picture up, you've messed up that picture of people don't really realize this necessarily and clicked with me a while ago is all I have to I have to do this now all of this you have to take an image, take a role far work on it, find the colors you want everything else and actually that is something that's what if investing a lot of time in because it's his stream lee hard and there is no right or wrong answer with it there's no wrong answers in the practice of photography either, really, but there are a few more rules but post you have almost infinite control and that means you have almost infinite possibilities to really, really mess something up and it's very often you spent a lot of that's. What? Yeah on you'll never know what's wrong, and I find my post too. Is that it's that's almost part of the problem of replacing the lighting thing? Because it's, I'll fix it in post all this picture book, but like if you're shooting film, you could dajun burn with simple placement and flagging and doing all those things in camera and that used to be done. But now it's all this fixing a post there's, a very good reason why photographers on the whole beyond a certain level of success used to pay someone else to do that, you know, a lot of them still do it's because it's it demands a very, very different set of skills and an enormous amount of patients well, and I think that and that that's ok, right that's ok, if it's not where you want to be in it somewhere you expertise is to be someone that outsources because it is it's a hugely skills that pictures like I just realized like I'm not getting any better at this, I decided to start making movies instead it was getting better at that, but I knew when to call it quits, it's something that I was terrible and I usedto sit forever editing a picture badly, and I'd forgotten, like my eyes, I start going like, I like blind to it, I don't know what I'm looking at anymore, like, I can't remember what I wanted it to look like or what it started as and at that point, that's when I just, like, go like this, and then I sent it to a friend like, like critique, who does something in, like, four minutes that is mind blowing fresh eyes, you know, we're all writers, and we certainly I avoid editing my own work beyond a certain point, because you can't see it clearly anymore every writer needs medicine, thomas raines, these fresh eyes on their stuff, if they're really going to, you know, and obviously you can buy the filters like everyone else went on, but if you don't go down that route, if you do do it yourself, it's, a very different set of skills, absolutely well, let's, kind of move on to our we've been talking a lot about things for that is advice for photographers, whether your new or your current let's kind of finish up with that topic of what is some additional vice that you have for photographers out there as the industry is getting more competitive as it's harder to perhaps stand out what are some things we could start with you? Barney, I was making oh, no here hang on. Storytelling was the no way we've talked a little bit about valuing your work that's very important on I did I was a fields chock full time for a very short spell because I was afraid to ask for money and that we'll never got paid that's what's being told to get the next one, this one was my portfolio don't do that do something that you really, really love because if you're done it shows I think one of them you can get surprised on the most fun shoots ever had was shooting mirrors, which is technically extraordinarily difficult and that's why I was really thinking, but on the whole there is a very haunting pictures of find a way to compose the picture backwards you gotta put stuff behind you that's gonna look good in the reflection. I know I get the camera, but on the whole if you have a real passion for this, you're taking pictures of it shows, and it will also drive you through, because regardless of have burned that you are the photography if you still have a passion for the activity then you're gonna you're more like to hang in there don't punch down because they're often is people that get you jobs not your portfolio shockingly the more successful you becomes as anything any professional field you realize that it's referrals so don't be nasty on dh until stories you know if you it is really, really hard to become a successful professional photographer a lot of professional photographers in sheer money terms are not successful and that's always been true and that's fine, but the ones who do really well the ones whose names you know a really good at storytelling so find this story and follow that that's great advice I mean I think you hear a lot that its people there they become known for their personal projects and that those are the things that actually stand out tio future people that air hire them more so than any of the jobs that they've done for something at any particular image yeah, absolutely something you mentioned like I brought something up before I get to the point I was going to say was like if you work for free make sure it's something that you love um before I was a full time writer and video maker I worked in finance I was a typical and I didn't take a vacation for four and a half years because every single time I got vacation I would use it to make something beautiful I would may use it t work towards what I wanted to do, which was to make movies full time and I didn't charge for any of these things because every time I did it was for a project I wanted to do and I wanted to make something beautiful because I knew I made something that we're that my passion showed through in it I could eventually use that to sell work later and the one film that I made that did that was the one I made for the thunderbirds about one of their photographers who was in the jets taking pictures of other jets that I was we like madly passionate about making that film, and I think it came through in that video and that's the one that eventually let me leave and do my own thing because I could use that to sell my work. But back on that what I was actually originally going to say it was a lot of people will tell you to specialize in something like pick something you want to be good at. Um I think that the answer is somewhere in between specializing and diversifying you don't want to be an animal food portrait, wedding and architecture photographer, but you can be a video guy, food photographer and our architecture photographer because the concepts are the same so you can try and find that middle ground and don't diversify too much, but be able to do multiple things, and I think you can be really successful in that I think that's why a lot of wedding photographers can do portrait sessions to really well, because it's the same concepts and they khun brought in there, mark, get that way and not just shoot weddings and engagements, you know, I don't know, I'm making this up, I'm not a wedding photographer, I'm looking at you because you are. It sounds like it's logical, so I would think like, I mean, touching back on my my whole thing is tim ferriss, if you ever read the for our work, we can I like that book alone, there's a lot of things that I pick up from it's not like I'm a forward aholic type person, but there's a lot of good key points, and they're one of my favorite quotes was if you want to be a world class educator first, become a world class. Lerner and I would flip that and say, if you want to be a world class photographer, be a world class. Lerner um, there's, you know, like, if you guys compare what you're doing on a on a daily life I'm doing about one hundred shoots a year means every every three days I'm doing something basically, and most of them are client commissioned when I'm not be inclined commission I'm doing at least every other week, if not every week, a conceptual shoot for myself, we're doing education, we're doing all those things, and so if I'm if you kind of compare yourself and you say, hey, if I'm jumping into this, not only do you need that education, but you need again, do it, because if someone else is putting in one hundred shoots eight hundred hours a year and you're trying to catch up to this person who already has fifteen thousand hours in the industry, you got to be dumping in the time to do it. And so I love the fact that you guys mentioned of if you're going to a free should do about something that you love, and I do the same thing I dio like I started shooting fitness, I even brought this up in our class like that very first, my very first finish, whatever the whole class we taught, you know, we talk about lighting and understand letting how much you could do with just a simple on camera flash, hopefully, you could learn something, yeah, all right, so, um I talked about like, if you just understand the basics of light and you can approach anyone these areas and I showed my first fit in issues that we ever did and novelas stairmaster came in, bought the images, they paid ten thousand dollars for seven images from a shoot that was just for me wanting to do it, basically, and then it opened up a whole new side. Now we do fitness, like commercial fitness work, and he was just doing something passionate about I I went and did a, uh, conceptual shoot with james automotive, and now we're going back to do another one. We're hoping that we could get into audi, so these things that like, like, go out and do these shoes don't go on work for free there's a very big difference of working for free, right? Um, don't give away your emissions in terms of don't let someone else take control the images for nothing in return yeah, absolutely, it's it's just it's a little corny forever, but if you're if you're smart about any, create the strategic relationships with other people and you go create them images they you know, use those images in their market matures, but they leave your water marks on it, it spreads you, khun, be extremely effective, doing marketing basically for your business and branching the new areas by just doing conceptual shoots which basically you're learning on this at same time so that's one of the biggest things is get out and shoot and even if like you don't have a client then find something you want to do and where you want to be shoot what you're interested in shoot what you want to be hired for and go out and put together conceptual shoot and do it I think it's really great advice I think it's also it's that balance between the importance of education but then the importance of actually going out and doing something because you can sit there and be educated over and over and over but if you don't go do the thing you're not going to actually learn it would add to that you know, for a new photographer starting out just tryingto break in you're going to get some hopefully get some jobs that may not be all that excited helping to get jobs some of those jobs may not be all that exciting you may be tired to photograph pens and pens made it very easy where your former there may not be where your passion lies but you have a real responsibility to bring your artistic eye to all that regardless of whether you think it's mundane a zit subject your client certainly doesn't and you know a lot of these you know projects that may not seem all that exciting bring something special to it it becomes part of your portfolio you know when you can really do that and you get a lot of these smaller jobs suddenly you start to have a very broad and very interesting body of work on it really is the photographer's responsibility never to have her phone and and, you know, say oh, this is a boring little little job I'm not getting paid that much for it I'm just gonna, you know, shining on now bring something special to bring something unique on that note to like I know so many I feel like I supported it over like being bring being creative and finding the beauty and things sochi as a photographer and if you're dealing with people one of the biggest things that we talk about in our studio is that I the easiest way to get on my bad list and to get out of our company is to say anything negative about a client um it's it's so easy to like get in the mind so she's just you know, bridezilla or oh man, did you see my bride today she's not very attractive or whatever it is it's so easy to fall into that mindset is a photographer and it's my biggest pet peeve is that easiest way to get out because I feel like if you can't see the beauty and somebody or in whatever it is that you're photographing how in the world would you possibly bring it out in an image like what? So uh jerry yang aside every time he's in town to try and make a point to go see him and he has like the best quote ever, so I'm not even gonna like try and stay put in my own terms, he said, if you want to be a better photographer, be a better person and I felt like that was such a key thing for anybody that does portraiture like be a good person and see the beauty and everybody because that's what you're asked to basically show and you'll find that when you do it you literally can change lives you show people abuse that they don't see themselves and they'll walk out of the room being a completely different person than when they came in I think that's great advice I think we just have about five minutes or so left this is an often so I want to open it up for some questions if anyone has any questions in here in their studio audience there's a mike you've been grabbed one of the great in the meantime there folks at home that have been asking some questions coming through we we have talked to one of the big questions was about whether, um today, people who aren't yet known can make a living and sort of what I've heard is education practice s hustle are some of those seems what do you guys think about film photography? This question had come through it is film photography making a comeback? And do you think we'll see sort of any innovations within that arena? I just had my engagement session done entirely in film why? Because my photographer who I love her work names lauren jonas, you know her work is spectacular and she shoots in film, so I wanted her to shoot my my engagement session like that and that meant she was in the film and I still think it's beautiful and I don't know if there's going to be new innovations made around it. I mean, it seems like very because much of that here people taking back a film, we hear about films that's no longer going to made anymore, it's getting discontinued so I don't know if that's going to change anything, but I do like that people I think you should learn film before shooting digital I still think that's wildly important, maybe not the zone system. I don't know if that's still necessary, you know there's it's, it's absurd, but now, but I think learning the process of shooting film and then the process of developing your own film you should do at least once I think that's a big deal, but I don't know if it's going to make a comeback for film I think you touched on the barriers, the materials you know, it's, a film film stock and chemicals like food, you know they go off and they have to made in large batches and it's not economical to do that unless large numbers of people are buying it. You know, it's unfortunate, but I don't I think beyond the large format I suspect film will probably continue to die just because the numbers of people using it are too small if you want, go and buy it and shoot it and prove me wrong that's brilliant, but I don't think there are enough people probably making that leap I could be wrong, but it's somewhat hang out, I think will become a very routine products that do I think it's gonna hang out and have a lot of friends that still share hybrid um that's one of the greatest ways of differential yourself if that's part of your style and what you do and everything like I mean, how many people are shooting film versus having collision in digital so like right off the bat you've automatically separate yourself from, you know, ninety five percent of the other tigers out there shooting it now does it fit your style is a fitting way to do it I don't know, but I think there will always be that small market there for ah for purchasing filming for buying those things I don't think that's going to leave necessarily just haven't figured out to make it small enough batches that they thank you that's that is a concern thanks so I think we have another question in the studio audience if we just if we decide to go with a mere lis um camera body what's the availability for speed lights at this point um well it's almost infinite really between third party and legacy flash guns because even if even if you have concerns about a very old fashioned giving a dangerous trigger, what it you can still trigger off camera I mean you can put anything almost reading this one's got a hot show, you'll find a ton of stuff to work with it, you know, wasting film right? So far six some really good stuff I think that you work on just about anything with a hot shoe is that you pronounce it wrong photo ever just always say politics and get yourself a liver talk to a three from goodwill that e have one in the back of my truck actually, I don't know why what is it teo? You never know when you're right I have a top. You also never know. Lines on the slider in the back. I have got a lot of weird things back there. Well, let's, take one more question. Looks like we have one in the studio audience. Go ahead. Great panel. Great discussion. It's, I guess emphasizing the difference between chasing your passion and taking up photography is a way of hoping to bring about some change in following your passions may be from, uh, photographing something that we need to improve in our communities or helped bring about change or awareness of storytelling is really important in that, but also share your thoughts as faras. For those those who are inspired to use photography is a hobby and maybe communicate the importance of transitioning into a business as well. A ce salesmanship. Can you speak on that for a little bit? I know I probably touched on a couple of points there. So this talk radio has a hobby. But the question is as faras keeping, keeping photography important or buyable in terms of chasing your passions and helping bring about changes in the community. And how can you do that as a hobby, but also for those who want to take the step further and say, okay, I'm not wanting to be a hobbyist anymore, I want to do this professionally and can you speak on thie importance of running it as a business and maybe focusing on the marketing and the salesmanship as a photographer is a skill set and not just, hey, I have great gear because I think we talked up way touched on how important the gear is, but it's that and you spoke to beautifully because faras creating great experiences for our potential clients in the salesmanship behind that I couldn't talk about the business side, but I think from the helping the community and stuff that's going to fall into where your passion in photography lies, my passion is and showing people kind of their beauty, if you will. I love portraiture, I love weddings, and I've photographed my closest. I'm gonna have to a little sister just about a month ago, and she comes from a family where, like they don't, you know, very typical asian family, they don't praise each other, they don't talk about anything like her self image is not the way that I perceive her, and I took these photographs on dh showed them to her, and she was like, oh my gosh, I I look beautiful, I look like a woman, I like, yes, that you are like, this is what you are s o I think affecting change is a matter of choosing the area that you're passionate about and focusing in on that, I think, from the business side there's really no other way to make the transition into being a professional photographer unless you do understand the business. And the thing is that me, justin and chris, the partners of linenger's fiery, we are former cps and accountants. We had nothing to do with this industry. When we first were were like jared, we work, for instance, young, we were in our cubicles, that's what we did for two years, we became cps, and we said we had enough of that let's go become the doctor that was kind of a weird story, but anyway, we became the divers and that was the business back and help us to do what we do today. And so if you don't love business, I hate I don't like business that's where I rely on justin, chris because they're incredible in that area, they're also incredible artists as well, and so I'm able, tio, we kind of segregate those duties of I focus on pushing forward like I'm kind of a mad scientist in terms of lighting and brand and what we're doing, and so I'll go create these different recipes, and I'll create these different things that we do from a post production side from a lighting side from everything I'll give it to justin, chris, and just like they would on a you know, if they were, if we were a franchise restaurant, they would take what this chef does, and they say, ok, we're going toe incorporate this going to take that out, we'll do this and they build it into the business of what we do, so they allow me to focus on the areas that I'm most passionate about. And if your passion is not business and find some good business partners because otherwise there's no way to really step into the industry. The guy who did humans of new york is another example of how he followed his passion. And now he's doing something that was on this day today. So, like, if you want to see someone who loves just people and taking pictures of people hearing their stories he's managed, I'm pretty sure he's making money on it now, like he's sent places to tell the stories of other people he raises money for people he cares about. So he's doing both of those things he's a hobbyist who is doing what he loves and it's also a business he built it slowly over time using social he's in social media and just continually doing what he loved repeatedly well and having an also thing is we just hardest capture having a really good idea so obvious that every other photographer in the world's been kicking themselves that's a burning passion you I feel like I'm I know we're a little bit over time but when raising my kids I feel like the one thing that I want them to understand is that money is a byproduct of passion if you do what your passion about the money is always gonna come uh but if you don't pick what your passion about its more than likely you're never gonna become successful enough to actually make the kind of lifestyle you're gonna wanna lead I was abusing persons we'll talk to people make friends that's how you get and so you get trump's communicate communicate network but you said don't punch down I never heard down down yeah don't be nice to people in need because you will meet them when you yeah because I was like yeah, coming up you'll meet them again when you're coming down so don't punch down this one saying if I had your accent well thank you all so so much this has truly been our pleasure to have all of you here, talking about not just the gear, but truly the passions, the business and what it takes to to move forward.