Truth, Fear, and How to do Better with Luvvie Ajayi Jones
Hello and welcome everyone, I'm Chase. So the service live show here on Creativelive. Hopefully you all know this show. This is where I sit down with the world's top creators, entrepreneurs and thought leaders and I do damn near everything I can to unpack their brains with the goal of helping you live your dreams and career and hobby and in life before we get to the reason that you're really here for our esteemed guest today, I want to welcome you from wherever on the planet. You might be tuning in from, uh, and let you know that you have the ability to impact our conversation today. If you've got questions, comments, thoughts, and you'd like to share them, just type in the comments there. If you are at creative live dot com slash tv, that's gonna be your best viewing experience. That's where I see questions and comments first. That being said, if you're on Facebook, live instagram live YouTube, live periscope or any other platforms that we live stream to I do see your comments just li...
ke 20 seconds delayed. Um, but in any of those cases, I will do everything I can to bubble them up to inspire our conversation with my esteemed guests today. Um, and start off by Let us know where you're coming in from around the world, uh, broadcasted yesterday. And I think we had all of the continents except except for Antarctica. So I'd love to see you all shouting out where you're coming in from. And while you're doing that, it brings me great pleasure to introduced lovey Ah, gee, Jones. She's a New York Times bestselling author, sought after speaker who thrives at the intersection of comedy, justice and professional troublemaking. And I know this first hand, having shared the stage with her before, uh, in San Francisco. It was an absolute treat. One of the things that inspired me to have her on this show and that was three years ago now and having her today has been 2.5 years in the making her debut book, I'm Judging You. The Do Better manual hit The New York Times best selling list on As a year blogging veteran, she writes on her site, awesomely lovey, which I cannot recommend enough covering all things culture with a critical and hilarious lens. Hilarious. I can hear in the background there. That same razor sharp voice is what spurred her wildly popular Ted talk, which last time I watched it. I've watched it many times. Now it's called Get Comfortable with being uncomfortable. I think it had, like, 5,500, views or something like that. Um, she's internationally renowned speaker, take stages all over the world. I've seen her at South by. She's also done Twitter, Google, Facebook, Amazon, uh, and has received a pile of accolades, including being chosen by Oprah as one of her inaugural Super Soul 100 list of someone who elevates humanity. I don't that is that is a very that is a tall order elevates humanity. I think you're starting to get the picture of the level of guests that we're having on our show today. Um, she's also been featured in New York Times, NPR, Forbes, the Chicago Tribune all over the place. I also love her podcast called Rants and Randomness, where she shares her most pressing rants, raves and faves born in Nigeria, bread in Chicago but certainly comfortable everywhere. Uh, I heard from from her bio, it says Lovey enjoys laying around in her plush robe and her love languages Shoes Please give a warm Internet welcome Tap your desk Tap on the keys wherever you are anywhere in the world for lovey in the house Welcome to the show, lovey. Yo, chase, that is arousing intro for real like, Yeah, it's it's still feels incomplete for those of us who know you or have shared a stage with you Um, it really does feel incomplete. And I just You are everywhere lately and rightly so. I mean, you're the work. I bought the hardback when it first came out. Um, was that in 21 2017 2017 When the hardback came out, the paperback came out in 2016. Yeah, and and I just re acquainted myself with the book in the Kindle edition, and I was fascinated Thio as I as I love this, all of the things that people have highlighted and and your timing, you know, you wrote this book whatever. A couple of years ago, you've been, you know, sharing stages with the likes of Richard Branson and owning stages all your own for the last, you know, three or four years since we Since we spend time together. And yet now you are the tip of the spear for a very important conversation. And I'm wondering what you can share with us about what does that What does that feel like? To have, um, the world come around and just connect with your work in an all new way in, You know, two years, three years later, it's gotta be, um, empowering and inspirational. And I'm sure there's a host of other things that you'll share with us. Yes. So I wrote this book five years ago. I wrote, I'm judging you five years ago. Have my copy here. And I wanted to write the book that was both timely and timeless because I wanted this book for people to read this in five years after I wrote it and say, like, this is still relevant. But one of the gifts would have been where some of my words here would have expired can actually one of my some of my words expired yesterday. So in on page 89 in Chapter eight, my privilege principal chapter I wrote about Let me see, I'll just read it for you. I said, It's not okay that there's still a sports team called the Redskins. If you're still reading this after 2016 and you're like, No, there isn't, then it's because we all finally got our lives together and stop being jerk wives and change that offensive name. You might be living in a better world, or at least one that it isn't so bold in its awfulness. So as of yesterday, that is a least something we can say. Okay, I'm hoping there are other things in this book that I'm gonna be reading in a year and be like, I'm so glad we did that too. It is, uh, far, far too late to be checking some of those things off and cultures arc. Um, but yeah, that is a huge, huge step. And can I read something else that I've highlighted from Chapter eight? I'm not interested in living in a world where my race is not a part of who I am. I am interested in living in a world where our races, no matter what they are, don't define our trajectory in life. I'm wondering. I'm wondering if you could comment on that. For me, it's just so oppression. It's so timely Yeah, that that chapter that I wrote was about privilege because I feel like so many people under misunderstand what privilege means. And when we talk about what it is to be a person of privilege, often times people think it means you're pointing the finger and saying You never worked hard for anything you never went through any hard times. When privilege is really about the things that we have that we did not earn the things that push us forward in life that we did not work for right, that put us in a better position than other people. So for me, as a black woman, I am a part of to marginalized entities being black and being woman. But I am also a privileged person because I am not poor. I've never worried about where my next meal is coming from. I'm not Muslim, so I'm not worried about who I worship being the reason why somebody attacks me. I am straight. So I'm not worried about whether the person I love is gonna be offensive to somebody. So those are the pieces of privilege that I hold and all of us hold hold a lot of privilege Because if you're listening to the show, you have a smartphone. You're you're in the Western world in modern era. You Yeah, correct. And being white is one of the biggest pieces of privilege in the world that honestly, it puts people way ahead just because of the very fact that white privileged white supremacy is the biggest like system of oppression that actually holds people down. So when people say, Well, you know, the thing is, I'm colorblind. I don't see color as a way to affirm that they are somehow not a part of these harmful systems. I'm like, No, no, you're not color blind. Like unless you're literally colorblind, which Mark Zuckerberg is like he can only see like he can't see Redd's, Apparently, which is why Facebook's logos blue. But like you, he no, he can see somebody and be able to see that. Well, that person is darker than me. So being color blind is kind of like a cop out. Not kind of it is a cop out because I want you to see my race. I want you to see that I'm black because I love my skin. I love my culture. I love all the things that come with it. My thing is, we cannot be blind because this world, our skin does matter. But it matters in that. It shows us kind of like how we move through the world, the culture, what we hold dear. However, our skin color should not be the reason why we can win extra or should not be the reason why we can be held liable for something that we never did, you know. So I want people to recognize my color. I love it, but our race and our ethnicity should not determine how far we should go in life. Spoken the whole book is it? Is this amazing? Um, I wouldn't even call it a tap dance because that makes it seem precious. It is like a bulldozer moving into all these different areas of life and saying the things they often go unsaid with humor, with wit but with, like cutting accuracy. And I just don't know how you develop that skill like, Is that a gift? Is that from writing for 10 years on your blogger? Is that because right now there's so many people, one of the things that I'm trying to do with show. Is there so many people who have something to say? Whether it's, um, because of the time we are in culture right now, whether it is because the, um it is we're trying to shine a light on new voices trying to amplify voices that may not have been heard. Right now I just I'm looking for and I'm trying to be a shepherd for those who are listening and watching right now, and I'm guessing that there Well, I can see right now they're people from San Francisco, Detroit, Minnesota, Dallas, Uh, another Texas another. We gotta Seattle fellow Seattleite Another Chicago. Ah, London. So what's up? Your your fellow Chicago in, um But there are people all over the world who have a voice and don't quite know how to use it. And as someone who has not just found their voice but perfected it and has been able to carve out a platform for themselves and make their voice heard, I'm hoping you can give some advice to those folks because there's a lot of people out there. You've got something to say and don't know how to do it. Yeah, everybody's voices matter. Some of us just happen to have big platforms like you know, you and I Chase. We've been privileged with these big platforms from our work over the years, and the work that we do is to talk about the things that we feel the stories that we want to tell. And it's not that our voices matter more than others. It's just that we now have these big platforms to do it. I am a huge fan of encouraging people to use their voice wherever they are, because here's the thing. You might not have a lot of money to donate to an organization you might not even have time to go volunteer. You might not have access toe like move a big lever, but in your place, wherever you are in the world right now, what you have access to is your voice, and I always want to say, like it's not about even the big platforms that we have, right? I wanna go beyond that because my platform is big. But the people that I know I can acutely affect every single day are the people who I know, who I work with, who I love who are my friends? Those people are the people who I can use my real voice and my ability to touch them, to make them do something because I think we can peer pressure each other into good behavior. We can peer pressure each other into leaving this world better than we found it. So what I tell people is you have a voice. It's not about. I need to find my voice. You have the voice. It's already there. This it's not like out in the world for you to go seek. I think the problem is that the world teaches us to doubt who we are so much that we feel like we have to go looking for this person. You don't have to go looking for them. What you have to do is not question that person that you already are. So I've been able to build my platform. I blogged my book, my podcast, because I've doubled down on who I am. I did not spend a lot of years doubting who I was, because here's the thing is when I started blogging 2003 17 years ago, blogging and being on social media was not a thing right. It was like nobody was considering a career. Being an influencer was not a category of career. It wasn't even a thing. Everybody was just like you, just playing on the Internet. But the gift of playing on the Internet is that because I didn't think of this is anything but a hobby I wrote in the way that was most true to me. I wrote as if nobody was reading because really, that was probably nobody reading in the beginning. But what it did was it formed that muscle in my head of just writing honestly of using my voice honestly, without pretense, without deceit, without strategy, without expectations. And that gift meant when people started paying attention to my blogger. I was already this person. I was only writing like this. So when people stumbled upon my site and other people would share my post because my platform has grown organically over the years, I wasn't the person boosting stuff. I wasn't the person like Okay, if I do this thing, this thing would come from it. I was just writing with that pure intention of this. Just what I feel like doing when people found my site. At that point, it was too late for me to be anybody different because this is already who I am. This is who I have put on paper. This is how I think how I write is really how I talk in more structured format. When people read my book or read anything, I write and they say, I hear your voices, I'm reading it. That is the big compliment because it means that whether you're sitting in front of me or not, whether I'm in a room with, you know Richard Branson or not, or Oprah, the person you're gonna get is gonna be the same person, and it's because I spend less time questioning myself. So my number one tip to people is, It's not about finding your voice. It's not about finding who you are. It's about doubling down on who you are and do. It is thoughtfully. It's possible. So it's not keeping it. Riel goes wrong. Just be who you are already there. Just don't think I'm not good enough. Or should I say this. Just do it thoughtfully, but do it in the way that is most true. to you. It's so true. And the part you said about, uh, so many people, I think, wait until they have a platform or they think they need to wait to have a platform to say something meaningful. And I was just wildly inspired by what you said about changing the people that are closest to you right now. Your peers, your friends, like I think there's a belief just in sort of dissecting pop culture here for a moment that it's on Lee. When you have 100,000 people watching that, you can have an impact. And you know my experience, I'd be curious to hear your take. My experience is that it's actually just the opposite. It's the way you actually create a platform is by affecting the people closest to you. Correct? Correct. I You have to be who you are, whether people are watching or not. You have to say what you have to say, whether people are watching or not. You have to be who you are in the dark and in the light. So before you looking for the 100,000 followers before you're looking for this giant platform, what are you doing and how you operate in the world with the people you love. You know, how you holding the people in your sphere accountable to being better than they are. You know? Are you in the room where people are making the racist or homophobic Islamophobic jokes? Transphobic jokes and you're like, I didn't say anything, but then you get on social media and then you post It's not okay to do this, but it happened in the room that you're in and you didn't challenge it, which is the room that you can affect. Change the quickest and easiest. What are you saying on social? Which is why I'm like, don't worry, about 100,000 people don't worry about that platform. You everybody has a platform. Your platform is the room that you're in currently. So how I am holding my friends accountable? How I'm holding myself accountable is what matters most before I can worry about my followers. My followers are people who might never meet me. But if the people who trust me in real life I can actually make them think something different, I could make them grow along with me. I'm doing my job. I just happen to tell what I'm telling the people. I love what I'm telling people on social media, and I think that's the power is. We all have a platform. You do not have to be a chase, Jarvis or lovey to have something important to say. You do not have to be us to make impact. An impact doesn't have to be in the big things in the big checks. In the big moments, impact comes in the small things that we do consistently, like every day that somebody might never even know you did. That's where we move mountains. That's where we change hearts. And that's how we elevate spaces that we end up in mhm, remember? So just to go back, retrace thing we've we've touched on. But having gone deep on So we were we were both on a panel was, um, and with Sir Richard Branson and it was in San Francisco. We dissected this for like, 60 seconds before we went live this morning, and I remember in advance I always love to know everything I can about people that I'm sharing the stage with. If I'm doing a panel or whatnot and so I bought your book and I laughed out loud, and I'm I laugh in the course of life pretty easily And yet not when I watch films or or books and my wife's sitting here laughing out loud. We just just happened last night. She's like, How come we're not laughing? This is hilarious, I don't know. But confession. I laughed out loud at your book so many times, and when I refreshed, I went back and again got the Kindle versions a couple of weeks ago, and it made perfect sense to me when I read this line that I wanna I wanna feet e that I read from you in The New York Times. It says, humor is the great equalizer. Yeah, What do you mean by that? Yes, no matter where we are, no matter who we are, no matter what our backgrounds are, no matter what our struggles have been, our stories have been we can unite and laughter. Making people laugh is a universal love language. It is a thing that, like instant, even if it's a momentary chuckle for that hot second, there was joy infused, and humor allows people to bring their defenses down. So if I can make you laugh for that hot second, your defenses are down so that when your walls air down If I could not tell you something important, you're more willing to receive it because I just made you laugh. I just brought joy to you. My writing has always had that humor in it, because I just I'm naturally. I'm not a goofy person that I'm still very serious in real life. But how I think humor is really telling the truth out loud, like the world is absurd enough to where you don't even have toe, add anything extra and it'll be funny, right? So as a person who is straight talking, giving you the world as I see it, there's gonna be some funny in it because the world is weird. Well, it's weird. Weird, weird People are weird. We're all strange. I things happen every single day that are even better than fiction, so I never set out to be funny. I don't even sit down to write and say, I'm going to be funny. I write honestly and people are like that. That made me laugh because I'm like, yes, because everything is weird. That's why I made you laugh, because everything is weird as it is without pretext. So the gift of my writing is that because I make people laugh and because I bring this certain charm to how I create content, people are able to receive things from me in a way that they might not be to receive somebody else because I truly right, as if I'm writing to my best friend, because I want the person who's reading it to feel like they're talking to their best friend because I don't write at people I write to you. How I write is how I think so. I'm having this conversation with you in my head is I'm putting this down on paper. So Maney made up words in the book. It's amazing. Yeah, Having having written a book myself and have every people who haven't written a book might not know is that you have to go to bat for every one of those words because you know, there's an editor at the publisher who's like That's not a word any like, Yep, but it's going in the book and you're like, I don't know and they provide some water down. Bullshit. Alternative. And you're like, Nope. It's gonna be bullshit. ID nous. That is what's going in the book and what I need in the book of bullshit. Yes, absolutely. I have a whole lost me because again, language. I know the rules of English. I know language. Once you know the rules, you could break him. So I break them, right? Because how we talk in real life is not just in the king's English, you know, we used the same way the slayings. We use the weird, weird words that we make up, and I'm like, in my writing, the value of my writing is that you are hearing me talk. So if I'm talking, I'm not using these words. That's true. So my editors had to admit it would be like, Yes, So I put a little glossary that was like, Here's what this word actually means. Here's a breakdown of the word, but yeah, that that is extra true. And it makes that's why it makes it feel like a conversation. It makes it feel like, ah, conversation where you might not realize you're being pulled to the carpet and called to task, but you are. And because you could receive it because you laughed a few times. You're more willing to be like I hear you. Okay, Cool. Cool, cool. Cool. And I think that is the value of just really doubling down on who I am. I want to retrace your particular story. You know, I said in my you know, a couple of questions ago I asked you about, um you know how you got into writing? You talked about starting to write on your own blogged. And but there's a bunch of bunch of steps in there between starting to write in the dark when no one reads it and you're scared to share it and getting, say, a book deal. And that is the black box where people do not know what's happening. It is dark in that box. People are scared in that box. People are uncertain and afraid. And what I know to be true is that every person has gone through who has ah, platform or who has a book or ah, podcast or something that they've all gone through that and I'm hoping you can share with the world again. The people who are watching and listening tuning in from all over the planet now. We just got South Africa in the house. Yes. Um, we want to know what this messy middle looked like for you. That's the middle. I like it. I call myself a 17 year overnight success because people see me now everywhere, and they're like, Oh, my God, it just feels like I'm, like, joke. This was not fast. This is not a shortcut. It I went through the ropes and learned a lot of lessons, and I'm like, Oh, my gosh. Now I want to share with people because maybe their journey would be easier because mine was not that easy. So I started blogging in 2003 when I was in college, I was a freshman in college. I had just gotten a D in chemistry because I thought I was gonna be a doctor. And then chemistry wanna One happened and I was like, You know what? Never mind on people like hospitals. I was like, Let's drop that dream. But so my friends, friends, peer pressure being starting a blogger because they had started one, and I was like, Okay, cool, cool. You know I'll do a weblog because, you know, back then that's what it was called a weblog. You're going on a log. Um, so I have my whole college career documented in my first ever blogged. When I graduated in I deleted that old block and I was like, You know, I've grown it. I'm going to start something new So I started Awesome. We love you dot com August and six with my psychology degree with a love for marketing. So I had a full time job doing marketing for nonprofit, But I would go to work full time come home and blogged. And, you know, my site started getting more and more, um, attention. Within three years, I won my first award, and it was for the best humor. Blaga Ward in the Black Weblog Awards, um, April 2010 I sitting on my desk at work, kind of bored because really, I was restless. You know, I would actually be blogging at work. Sometimes I was probably a trash employees at this point because I really felt this urge to not be there, but I wasn't going to quit because I'm like, you're not a writer like you. Just you just have a block. That's cute. What is gonna actually pay you? I got laid off my job because they said budget cuts. I really think I got fired and they did me a favor. E got fired because it was ultimately, like I wasn't being great at my job. I definitely wasn't bringing my all. I definitely was not giving 100%. I think I fell asleep in a meeting even one time, like so. I feel like they they fired him, but they were like, Let's just laid her off. Um, And I panicked because I should have been like, Oh, my gosh, yes, This is the opportunity to really hone in on this writing thing and really give it some real energy and give it real credence. No, no. Maybe in the seven person I waas, I was like, Well, I'm gonna just going monster dot com and go find other jobs so I would look for other jobs. But in the meantime, I would do what I was doing for my, uh, my old full time job, which is helping people tell their stories on digital in real way. So I started consulting for small businesses and other bloggers, um, to make money. So I started making decent money with that, but still looking for a new job and I won't put almost quit. The blogged almost deleted it. And I remember, like, the day before I deleted that. I got an email from somebody who said The reason why she wasn't crying as she was sitting in the waiting room as her mom got chemotherapy was because she was reading something that I wrote on my site. And it was like, God was like, Ham, stop, stop, stop. You should not believe that site. Um, so I just kept writing and I was afraid to call myself a writer because what would come with saying this out loud? Right? What would come with now owning this thing that I thought was a hobby, that I couldn't fail because now I could feel it if I said I was actually taking it seriously. But every attempt that I would try to make to be like it's just a happy I would get another type of note from somebody who say something just incredible about how my words had impact on them. So still look for full time jobs. Still doing this consultant to make money And then I got credential to do press coverage of the Academy Awards. Who? Yeah, usually people get get credentials for the red carpet. I have credentials for red carpet and backstage Which wild, right? Was this just Was this just pure charm? How do you say? Well, a producer who reads my who read my blawg emailed me out of the blue and was like Hey, I love your site. I read your stuff all the time. I subscribed to everything. I don't miss it. You should come to the You should come to the Academy Awards and cover it. And I was like, Mhm the scam. No, No. So, yeah, I applied and got credential with her backing like so here I am. It was 2012 Academy Awards. I'm backstage eating Wolfgang Puck's shrimp and chocolates Because, of course, of course, Wolfgang Puck caters the Oscars, and all the other journalists are like tapping away. You know, BBC s right there. CNN, Entertainment Weekly all of that. And here I am awesomely lovey. Just in all of the room that I am in. But I got in because of my words. And I feel like that was a light bulb moment in my head that was like Your writer, you are supposed to be doing this because look at where you have made by just being yourself by just using your words. You've made it in the room where everybody else who's in here got here because they're part of a multi million dollar media company. And here you are, as you just tweeting life tweeting what you're seeing, what's the Let me just walk past you and who you just interviewed. That was when I'm bridesmaids first came out So I interviewed Melissa McCarthy and Paul things from the red carpet and and as your media listen, McCarthy that I still love to this day and I'm just like So I had that moment that waas a complete shift in my career because all of a sudden I started doing all these extra things is because my mindset shifted in that room. I finally was like, Okay, you've been afraid to do this thing. You've been afraid to take this seriously. You've been at this point I've been writing for nine years online, but it took something so literal, like me being in the room. So finally say your words matter beyond the high, Be of it all. You can actually move people toe, think critically toe, have joy with it, double down on it. That is what you're supposed to be doing. Stopped looking for full time jobs and focus on this. It will figure itself out. And everything that I was afraid of really was like, How do you make a career out of being a writer if you're not, You know, a novelists. You know, if you're not the Toni Morrison's, how do you make a career out of just writing essays and your thoughts about the world? Well, I got offers to have, you know, columns in magazines. Brand started coming to me to be like we see your audience loves you. They trust your judgment. We love the way you write stories. Partner with this. So all of those fears got moved out the way once actually committed to not being afraid of being who I really WAAS, which is this writer who might not have had a path that was set in stone. There was no blueprint. There was no manual. And two years later, I've had the idea for my first book because I got played drives by a journalist who took about three paragraphs of my work, put it in theirs. Did not give me any type of credit. And I remember tweeting. Is there not a limited edition handbook on how not to be terrible at being a human? And I had another lightbulb moment that was like, That's the book I should write The limited edition handbook on how Not to Be Terrible is really what I'm judging you to do. Better Manual is, um, got my agent agent came out of the blue like, two months later, an agent email news like I read your blawg. I think it's amazing there's a book here and I go funny. You said that I have my book idea. So this was November January 2014. I wrote my proposal in two weeks. My 50 page book proposal. My editor, My agent got it February. He started shopping it around. I got my book deal march. For those of you who don't know that is like that is like being shot out of a cannon. That is like overnight. But as you said, a 17 year overnight success, right? You've been writing for nine years before you even put together your book proposal. Yeah, but try putting scale my book proposal I've been writing for 11 years. So I wrote the proposal in 20 end of 2014 Beginning of 2015. Got the book deal March 2015 wrote the book itself from May to October 2015. So I wrote this in five months. The book came out September 2016. I grind it and pulled in all of my favors and and had to get over any type of hang up that I had about asking for help because I was like, I need this book to hit the Times list because when my book was being shopped around, it was considered risky because publishers did not think a black woman who is not a celebrity could sell books. Who was not a novelist could sell books. Oh, book of essays, and I'm gonna do that. Well, even with, I got a really low advance and I was like, Oh, I realized that the point of this book is to prove a point that one we can sell books, but also for me. I also wanted to be where this book became, the one that people would use somebody who looked like me would use to walk into a publishing house and say, Because this book did well, mind will, too. So I used all my power. I borrowed my friends power. I called in all the favorites, wrote the dope marketing plan. Just was like, This book has to do well because it goes beyond me And the book came out and instantly hit The Times, listed number five and changed my life and also change publishing and change the way people deal with black creators who come in with book proposals. They've taken more seriously. So yeah, that's how that is the Cliff Notes version of the journey to where I am today and now I'm writing, book to and book To is really based on the fact that I want to tell people that my story is a Siris of me doing the things that scare me shitless over and over again, things that have no guarantees, things that feel too big for me. The reason why I'm sitting with you today, Chase, because I've done that for the last 17 years and I will continue to do that. And all the things that have happened for me have happened because I have made it a point to not stop because something scared me. So that's why book to is called the Fear Fighter Manual So but one is the do better manual book to is the Fear Fighter Manual, because I want people to be encouraged to know that yo, like the things that you're gonna have to do, whether it's day by day, whether it's career, whether it's with the people you love, are gonna be the things that matter, because they're the things that scared you. You're gonna have to do it because it's difficult. That means you're actually supposed to do it. You're talking and the language of people who are tuning in from all over the world right now. New YORK, Cincinnati Karen is just she's hands up emoji. Um, Indianapolis. Um, Jerome says, thank you so much. So fair to say your message is resonating. I wanna find out those times where fear actually kicked your ass, Because in order to write a manual about fear, um, you had to have, uh, you had toe have received some good lessons from it. So can you share some of your some of the times where you didn't persevere? Yeah. Um I mean, there's a lot. There's a whole chapter on fail loudly in my book. Um what? So there's a time when I was asked to speak at a conference in Europe, they emailed me and invited me to come speak with the ted conference. Um and they said they don't pay people because, you know, after the emailed, me and my team reached back to them and said, You know, here's her fee Travel included blah. They're applied back to my team and said, You know, it'll be a great stage for love you to be on. We don't compensate speakers. So I'm a part of a group of powerful women in business who really value sharing information. It's called the list. Shout out to Rachel Sklar started it and I went in, and I was like, Hey, guys, um, this conference hit me up. Is it true that they don't pay speakers And within 15 minutes I find out that they do pay speakers, just not speakers who look like me. You know, I found out that hierarchy of pay that they do is like they'll pay white, white, white men to come speak. They'll buy books, you know, white women, they'll pay travel. And then black women who were asked to come speak were asked to basically spend our own money. It was a time where I was like, Oh, wow, So this is really a system thing, that they're doing their part that's not fair to people who look like me toe black women to black people and a lot of us people who live in marginalized identities already know inequality comes with who we are just because the world is trashed. So I went to my eighties and I was like, I want to speak up about this publicly. I want to tell the truth in this moment. But here's the thing. I am aware that if I tell this truth, I could take some financial hits, you know, maybe conferences will be like, you know, we're not gonna bet lovey too risky. Too risky was risky. My eighties were like It is very risky. Are you sure you want to do this? Because this could blow up and I was like, Here's the thing. I have to be who I say I am, especially when it's difficult. And right now it's really difficult because I know I can absolutely face harm because I'm doing this and my agents know me. They know that I if I am compelled to do something and I don't feel righteous in it, as I will. So they were like, Alright, we understand because I said, If I can't be the one to speak up about this, who can I am? At that point? I've been I've been a professional speaker for about eight years. I've been on some really grand stages. I've spoken at Ah, lot of big conferences. I get the feed that I asked for. I am one of the privilege ones. Um, I wondering in the my asking the intern to speak up. Am I asking the person who just started speaking yesterday to speak up and my asking the person who was like, Oh my God, I just got my first gig and I finally got paid $300 to speak up about pay inequality? No, because they wouldn't come with the same power that I do. So I said, Okay. I have to think through what this fail looks like of being afraid. What is this? What am I afraid of? I'm afraid of losing money. Okay. I'm afraid of losing money and afraid of, like, lose an opportunity. What is my worst case scenario? Okay, so if I lost all my speaking engagements for the year and have to change my business model, do I still have other skills? Yes, I do. I still have my marketing, communications, social media strategy, skills. I could do that. Okay, if I do get fired, will I become homeless? No, because I have a decent savings account. Okay. If I go through my savings account, can I end up on the couch of my mom and be OK? Yeah. I could buy. I can buy myself by six months on the couch. So I ran all those scenarios through my head, and I was like, You know what? The thing that I'm afraid off the failure is very much an option that might happen. Can I move past it. If that does happen, I was like, Yeah, I think my I think my name could stand up enough where I can type of my friends like, Can you find me something that I could make good money at while giving value? I probably can. So I spoke up about it on Twitter, and it's bird other people to speak up about. There's like people started those big conversation around other people who face similar things in different industries. Funny enough, The thing that I was afraid of, which was like me getting the hit didn't happen actually was the opposite. That happened. Forbes ends up picking it up. Uh huh. The guy who runs the conference end up sending an email to Forbes that doubled down on his dog whistle. That was like he said, he said, whether yeah, he was like, you know, maybe if our conference wasn't a more urban demographic, lovey could command a feat. Oh, I was like, Wow, Well, thank you for saying, saying that proves my point that I'm not here and yeah, it really it was a gift because the times when we will fail the lessons that we will tell each other. The lesson that we will learn are much better than sitting back and not doing anything. People pulled out of his conference and it's a conference that made 12 million euros a year. So it's not a conference that small. They had the money. They just didn't want to pay me. I think in the times when we are afraid of failure, failure really is moving out of an experience that you learned nothing from. I think that's real failure. Failure is when you you do not grow from an experience. Falling on your face is not really failure falling on your face. We all gonna do with a different times. It will happen. What happens when you pull from the face plant, right. It's not a failure if you can grow from it. It's not a true failure unless you face planted and stay there. So I'm always like if I face plant, I'm not staying there. So what really is failure? Mhm. Well, I also want toe just to point out to anyone watching and listening right now that you did this idea of just just push through the fear. No, you didn't. Actually, you were thoughtful about it. I think you said something about that earlier. Like approach things with thoughtfulness even, you know, the raw, great parts of you. You have to be thoughtful about it. It's not like an excuse not to be thoughtful. In fact, that's a great reason to be extra thoughtful. And what I heard you say about your fear is that you actually did. I think, uh, my my buddy Tim Ferriss calls it fear escaping were you, like, what's the worst that can happen? And you actually did the work and walk through And like, Okay, do yourself this. This is like we had a discussion about this. We we ran the numbers, we ran the soul searching. We checked our gut and all systems say we are clear to proceed forward. Yeah, that's on. So I created a truth telling guy because people are always, like Okay, like So what? How do I really figure out if I'm supposed to say something in the moment or even maybe afterwards, about a situation that does not sit right with me? I actually create a truth telling guy that people can download if they go, Toby, the domino dot com. Right, And in it I put my process in doing the hard things. You can download it and read it and use it printed out right down the time when you're like, Okay, I might have to do this meeting where I have to tell somebody the truth, right? It walks you through the process that you should use to say whether you should do this or not, because, ah, lot of times we don't tell the truth because we think we're being impulsive or we don't tell the truth because we think we're somehow tripping, like maybe I'm just being hypersensitive. There are a lot of times when we're supposed to say something that we don't strictly because we're not sure and have not quantified the decision making process of it all. Quantify that decision, and I actually put my my my process in doing this because being the truth teller and being the person who's doing stuff that's hard, it's still hard even for me, right? So it's not that I just wait. I'm like, Oh, today I'm gonna do hard things. It's gonna be great. No, it's a commitment moment by moment to do hard things and each moment you're making a different decision. So it's not like you're gonna be brave one time, which means you'll be brave the next time you know you're being brave. The next time is a decision you have to make for yourself. So I'm always like people need the tools to do this. So that's why I created the truth telling guide. And I and people have been downloading and being like this is actually really helpful. I'm using this before my meeting is my meeting with myself beforehand are meeting before the family meeting. You know that needs to happen, but yeah, figure out the worst case scenario. Can you actually move past it? If you will end up homeless and your kids have nowhere to go by speaking the truth? Okay, maybe be quiet. But here's the thing, though. That's why the people who are who have the power and the privilege needs to be committed to speaking the truth. So the people who have so much to lose don't have to put that stuff on the line. We gotta put stuff on the line so this person who's looking for their next meal never has to it is our jobs to stand in the gap for them. It is our jobs. Use our voices to, um, interrogate systems that are bigger than us. So the people who are really at the margins who are really suffering have advocates who have less to lose. Like I don't expect people who have everything to lose to put, to continue puts up on the line like black women, for example. We're constantly profession. Troublemakers were the ones who have constantly been like guys. Everyone get together. And then everyone looks at us as the people who cried wolf. What happens if everybody else starts using their voices in that way? What happens if people start putting themselves on the line and allow us to take a breather? So the whole point is that everyone recognizing their power and using their power, So the people who don't have a much don't have to continue to lose constantly and creating some type of equity in that way. So, yes, I can put my name on the line in my voice on the line, so the person who just started last week won't have to if I can speak up for her so I can insulate the harm that she will feel. That's when I'm doing my job. Mhm truth. You could just hear how the truth sounds. It just sounds. It just sounds clean. It sounds clear. Thank you for speaking the truth. Christopher from Maryland. Shout out. We got the Ivory Coast in the house. Fabrice, Thanks. So much for the truth. Jerome just said, uh, I started my photography business at 61 years old because I did this fear exercise. I just signed up for your for your be the domino. And if you all are out there in the world, then you're watching on whatever platform on if someone could tap in there, be the domino dot com so people can find this, uh, later today and tomorrow, when this thing's REBROADCASTING. That'd be a big favor for for lovey and for this show. So thank you. Thank you. In advance for doing that. Um, I want to shift gears for a 2nd. 1st of all before I do again. Thank you. For, um, your lasers. Um, you talk. Speaking of plain truth, your Ted talk a zai? Sure, Really? I've watched it several times, and it's about being comfortable being uncomfortable. How do we do that? It's in knowing that things will not necessarily feel good. Like we live in a world that puts harmony over justice. We wanna be in the room where everything seems cool. I don't wanna be the person to ruffle the feathers, rock the boat because it's uncomfortable. But usually the thing that rocks the boat that you feel like you need to do is the thing that is necessary. So knowing that the discomfort is okay, just know that it is okay. You will be uncomfortable. Because if you're in a room where the truth is not value, Lord, if everybody's supposed to say yes, that's great. Without challenging something that doesn't feel right, of course is gonna be uncomfortable. If you're the person who was like, I don't know about that, Guys, I don't know. So us being okay with that and charging forward regardless, So I don't believe in fearlessness. I think fearlessness really just means that I know I am scared, but I'm going to do that thing anyway. I think that feels thoughtful and necessary anyway. So us sitting and the feelings that don't feel that good in the lack of harmony, knowing that what we're doing is for the greater good is absolutely necessary. Mm. And there's there's probably a bunch of language in everyone's mind right now because we've all been that person, right? We've all been the person that says Okay, when we didn't mean it, that went along with the thing that was the wrong thing. And, um, whether it's from privilege or from ignorance or from, um, well, any, regardless of where it's from Right now, so many people are sitting where they're at, looking backwards and saying, I've done that, Yeah, is there. I'm trying to get people to go from 0 to 1, like just Okay, now how do you go from being that person who says, Okay, who? I'm going to use this word. It might be a little bit loaded, but betrays yourself or betrays the truth. How do you go from that comfortable existence to being uncomfortable? What's what is the 01? How do we do that? Because right now there's not a not a cell in my body that what I'm speaking for, ah, generic person who probably fits the bill of lots of us who are listening. I'm scared shitless. How do I go from 0 to 1, going from a life that has been either comfortable or I have painted a picture that it's comfortable to being uncomfortable? Is it repetition? Is it some words we say to ourselves? Is it we read your be the domino dot com before we go in tow. Quote battle. How do we go from 0 to 1? That's a great question. You can start today. It's not. Don't hold the shame to the person who you think you were. Don't be labor. The I should have stepped on something that in that conversation three years ago, that's a waste of time. It's all about charging forward. Starting today, you go from Georgia one in your next conversation, right the next time somebody says something to you that does not feel okay, you pausing before you also nod your head or you pausing when you would typically be like great all. It's fine and saying, Hmm, I really want to rethink that before I can give my okay. Or maybe even that does not sit well with me, and I really think we should go a different direction. That is how you go from 0 to 1. It's just in the next time you have the opportunity to tell the truth and you do you choose the truth over the comfort. That's how you start and literally it's a moment by moment thing I at any given time can stop telling the truth. And I would not be a truth teller if the next conversation I have, I don't tell the truth. I didn't honor myself in that moment, but then I can make up for it in the next conversation that I have that I'm like. I'm being called to tell this truth now so you can start today. It's not about, Ah, grand life changed, and all of a sudden you become this person. It is in the moment it is in the conversations. It is in the day by day things that we do, because at any moment we do, we can choose whether to be brave or not. So it is when you first choose to be brave. You just went toe one the next time you just went to to, so it's a constant movement forward. It's a constant decision that you have to make. It's not a one time thing. It's a everyday thing. It is a every conversation thing. So you know, be gentle with yourself because a lot of times we don't have the muscle for the things that we haven't done or practice. So it's gonna be really hard in the beginning, where you're like, I'm about to make something that somebody uncomfortable. Here's the thing, though. A no never killed anybody and discomfort never killed anybody. So even the discomfort is momentary. Everything is temporary. So whatever discomfort it is, let it hang in the air. You know, let it hang in the air. They'll be OK. You'll be OK. You'll have a conversation having difficult conversations. It won't kill anybody, you know. So just you could even say to the person you're talking to. This is kind of tough for me to tell you, because I'm not used to saying this. Be honest. The truth is the truth, right? So even be honest with your discomfort. Say this is kind of comfort for me, because this is like new, and but I want to make sure I'm honoring my word. So if you see my face distorting. That's why I like you can even tell people the truth and how you're feeling in the moment and walk them through your own discomfort and say, Listen, you know I love you. You know, you're my best friend. This is not easy for me to say, but I feel like I have to call this thing out. Hey, boss, you know I respect you. You know, I really take your word. Your mentorship is important to me. So this is not easy for me to challenge this this campaign that we want to do. But I feel like it is my obligation to tell you this. So tell the truth. Even as you're telling the truth, Yeah, This the my wife is a mindfulness teacher, and what she coaches is to get into the body. Because what does fear feel like? Fear is largely a big story. And then when you translated to the body, it's like, Oh, it feels like a tightness in your chest. It feels like you're a little short on breath, it feels, and then you start to realize, Well, that's a lot of excitement. Feels like that's what a lot of other feelings feel like, but it's really we got the story in her head. I love your idea of sort of qualifying it and as a vehicle for still getting it out there like I don't I don't know quite how to approach this. I'm uncomfortable. I'm trying to be honest and being comfortable in my discomfort. I just saw a comment coming from Jose just saying Thank you for being an absolute truth teller. Love this conversation in your posts. The question that Louise has is sorry Jose has is, is humor the vehicle to get this done? Is it more important than anything else in this case or do? Are there lots of options? Know lots of options. If you are not funny, don't try to be funny. Honestly, don't even try to be funny. Even if you are funny, unless you know this is gonna land. We'll just say it in the way they once that you want to say. And if somebody finds it funny, okay, humor is not the only way to do it. It's not knowing where to tackle it, which is why I'm always like it's more. It's more important to be authentically you than it is to try toe force. Some type of, uh, result, right? So if you're not somebody who's known for humor, or if that's just not how you think, don't force it, I think the truth can stand by itself. Even without humor, right humor can help. But the truth is the truth. And it could stand by itself without human. I think what is just important is you try to be a thoughtful is you can be. That's all you can do. What happens once you tell it, it's out of your control, Don't think. Even with your being thoughtful, that is gonna land great. You have to be okay with knowing that everyone might not receive it in that way. But that's why I always say like three questions that I ask myself before I tell the truth. Do I mean it cannot defend it in my saying it thoughtfully. If the answer is just all three, I say it knowing that it may or may not land well and knowing that because I can defend it, I can still stand in it. And if I need to apologize for it, I will apologize for it. But Yeah, don't worry so much about the reception. Don't worry about the humor of it all. Just worry about. Am I being as thoughtful as possible? If I am? Let me say it. I think that's amazing advice. Also, Elaine Favor reminds us that humor is super cultural. So but the truth isn't that the truth cuts through all of that stuff. So if you're not a if you're not a master with humor, don't don't rely on it. I think I'm gonna say it like you said it. Which is, if you're not funny, don't do it. Yeah, don't don't know force nothing. How did you get funny? E mean again? I've shared the stage with you and it's just like laugh out loud and it's like it's just it's such a treat, and it's a joy. You're always funny. Is that something you worked on? Is it's just standing in your past like what's going on? I think the point of human being cultural Nigerians are really funny people. Just because we are very straightforward people and I'm Europe specifically and you're about language is very metaphorical like it's very descriptive, and a lot of that humor actually translates to how I write. So when people are like, How did you come up with these words? I'm like, I kind of thought about it in Yorba and then try Toe translated in English and then English is automatically funny just because of the way the languages work together. So there's a lot of that my family's money, like we spend a lot of time just roasting each other like we will make fun of each other just for the sake of making fun of each other and like capital and be like laughing for days and my mom, even though she does not think she's funny. My mom is hilarious because in her super seriousness, like she'll she'll say something earnestly and me and my sister will be crying, laughing, and she's over here like What's funny? So, like, I just come from a long line of shady people who don't realize they're hysterical. Yeah, that's that's basically a lot of it and that my friends are funny, like we we used to be in high school, just laughing at the cafeteria in like looking at the world and pointing out random things. So it's just all around me. It's just funny people. And I think, um, that just comes in my writing and my the way I talk, It's It's but it's also, yeah, the way you just you just exuded its's. It's really joyful. It's really fun, Um, shifting topics slightly, but the same vein Ah, there's a title of a chapter in your book that I love. And I'm hoping you can share a little bit more about the meaning behind it, which is really GS Move in silence. Really? G's moving silence like gnomes. Okay. And that really is from a little Wayne, uh, a line from a little Wayne song. He said religious moving sounds like lasagna. So I used it from the title of my, uh, chapter where I talk about how social media is like everybody thinks they're in a reality TV show. Everybody thinks they are in a reality TV show and in this world that everybody looks public. I even seen very public. What does it look like to actually keep something sacred? As as Publicas? I might seem I still am very private, Like when I got married nine months ago. A lot of people, even though I had I was in a relationship, right? So it was like all of a sudden they found out I got married and they're like, Wait, when was she dating anybody? I know y'all didn't know because I was a real G who was when in silence, Because I think it's important to also keep something for yourself in a world that is very like show body as and very like. People are posting moment by moment of their lives. What's happening? What does it look like to still have a sacred space, even as you are a public figure? So and yeah, given now everyone's a public figure, right? Everybody is now. Everybody's an influencer. Everybody's a public figure, but I'm like, you know what? Some things don't need to be shared with the world every day. It's so smart. It's so simple. And yet I think that's, um, let me ask a question that I'm hoping to get clarity on. Then, if doubling down on you is the way that you stand out the way you show up, it's the most most authentic and powerful that you can be, and yet you still have to reserve some aspects of yourself for yourself. And some things aren't private. Some things aren't public. How do you reconcile those two things? Here's the thing is authenticity does not mean 100% loudness. Does that make sense? I'm truly myself, even when I'm not telling you every single thought I have for every single thing I'm going through. But if you ask me, even authenticity could even say I'm not ready to share it. That's still riel. We think that authenticity means people need to know every single thing about us or everything that we're doing. No, it means that the things that we choose to share were being true about, You know, authenticity is being proud of who I am and who I am is the same, no matter what room I met, who I'm talking to, who I am a super versatile, too right? So in one way where I am the person who's really funny at other times I might be the person sitting in the room saying nothing much and just like observing what's happening that's also me. And authenticity is not trying to act like I am anything but who I am right now, so oftentimes people would meet me and expect me to be bouncing off the walls because they see my energy online. But I'm really kind of I'm really very even. Kill very kind of like calm person. Just in general, I do have energy. My energy is not is more obvious when I'm talking, but when I'm just kind of like sitting there and I'm not the person that's being interviewed, I'm fine not taking up that space. So a lot of times people will think, Oh my gosh, I met lovey. She wasn't high energy. She might have been funny and I'm like, No, I was actually just kind of enjoying not being the center of attention. I have no problem being the person just in the room that I don't have to be the one you're talking about. I don't have to be the one whose voice you're being hurt on panels. I even try to be cotton, some of it where I sometimes I'm not great on panels because I will sit back and just listen because if I let it happen, I can dominate a space very easily with our panel. That wasn't a problem. There's a whole lot of strong personalities on it, right? Another panels. I'm really hyper sensitive to making sure that I don't take up more space than I should. So I actually sit back and just be like, Okay, I'll make sure I'm not the first person jumping to answer every question. I'll make sure that, you know, if I answer the last question, I'll sit this one out and let other people and have their voices be heard. So that's authenticity in that I'm very aware, and sometimes my energy and my my energy is best used. Being quiet. Mhm. Yeah, you don't have to. You don't have to be something I have to live up to someone else's thing. I think that's the the nugget that people get stuck in right. It's like if you are, it's not your human being. You're not a robot that the only runs one program I'm seeing. I'm seeing comments right now. People are thanking you for articulating this because they feel stuck in there, Um, in their program. Um, I'm aware that we're getting short on time and there's a really cool project that I want to ask you about, which was inspiring to literally millions and it is I I saw it from afar, and then I just looked under the hood and noticed that you were a huge mover and that and that was shared the mic. Incredible. So just I want to give you a shout out and saying That was like, so crazy Inspirational. And it's a huge swing. And for maybe you could articulate Um, I think it was your yourself and was on the ST John on DSA. Mothers got together, uh, share with us the the nature of the project and the why behind it. So sure, the mic now waas Anak Shin that I founded with both men ST John Glenn Indoor Stacy Bend it because we all kind of had to some ideas around the same time, which was like, How do we harness the power off prominent white women at a time when people are like, What do I do? How do I make sure that I am a part of having black women's voices be heard? So we came together and was like, you know, Well, how about if we actually let it be literal? How do we How do we get white women who were prominent to share their mix with black women, so black women's stories could be heard black women who typically would not be heard. So Glennon went to her little corner and was like, I'm going to ask the white women friends who I know who are prominent Thio give up their instagram accounts. And we were like, We will ask the black woman who we trust whose voices are amazing. We typically don't have these big platforms to take over these accounts. In eight days, we got 54 prominent white women so hand over their accounts to black women who have amazing stories. And for it was on June 10 it was a complete takeover. I'm talking. It was it was everywhere. It was so boss. It was the most badass move, like and here's the thing is, they gave us their passwords. So we were in their accounts. It wasn't a we were sending a post to post. They literally were like, Here's your Here's my password for the day. My account is yours. My INSTAGRAM account is yours. Do what you would like and I had Sophia Bush's account. She's brilliant. I love her, so I was you know, I was basically really encouraging her audience. Who won? I started with who I waas and like this who I am, you know, and just talked about why it was important to honor who you say you are. Just tell the truth. But our intention was really to magnify the voices of black women and for white women who want to be allies to put some skin in the game. Right? Thio, move aside for the day. And it was brilliant because the people who we matched up we matched up all the black women with white women who we thought would be great for them to also being relationship with Everybody came with such open heart open minds. It waas beautiful. We learned a few lessons from it. It was wildly successful, but we learned that these platforms the problem is still that our voices not being heard partly because who gets amplified is already something that's skewed. Who gets censored, is already skewed right? Who gets their post taken down on instagram is skewed so we know that there's deeper work that we have to do but cheer the mic now was such a moment of Hope Trust because it showed what it looked like for sisterhood in action. For the people who said yes to us both on the white women side and the black women side. Without question, it was everywhere. I think it got something like 20 billion impressions. It was. But what we really want is that people who have power once again at the at the core of it is to say, like people who have power, how can you loan your power and loan your privilege to people who don't have it? How can you actually make moves that will allow somebody else who typically would not have the platform to be heard by the people who were typically not hear them? It was such amazing, um, take over and I didn't know that it happened in eight days. That's even more baller. That's crazy town. It was actually wild. I was shocked that we were able to do it like it was bonkers. And I, um, follow you Bahama Roxane Gay Um Joma Lulu Uh oh, uh and burn A and Glenn and Sophia and Eva division. And so all these people and I had this came it was amazing. And and, um, I just want to know how do we keep that concept if it was a proof of concept that, um, sharing power is powerful? Yeah. You know, at the risk, I know enough Thio get myself in trouble. And I don't want to ask you to solve the problems that culture has presented us with. But I also want your input. Like, is there advice on how to respectfully and tactfully um, give up this power in the same way that you and Osama set that up? Is there a Is there a analogy? Is there a eyes? They're a vector. Is there a guide? Any any guidance on how to continue what you all created on June 10th going forward? The point is to center the stories and the lives of black women people in the marginalized fronts, like disabled people, trans people who are trans like we want people to really figure out how to center. Those who are typically not are. A big part of our action was to make sure that the black women were centered. I mean, down to how we did our graphics down to how we make sure press new our graphics. The black women came first in any of the pictures impress. None of the white women could do press without their black partners, because when you start getting really intentional about the world, you will start seeing how whiteness is constantly centered just as a default. It's no one even notices it anymore because it is so centered. I didn't give you an example. Chase. I speak. I'm on stage is at least 25 times a year, and you know, a lot of times I get the over the ear mix. I remember doing a speaking engagement at it was in San Francisco for a book festival, and I go backstage and they put five microphones on the desk and said, Pick the one that matches you and my jaw drops because I was like, Wait, This whole time these microphones was just to match my skin. I just assumed, I don't know. I just yeah, there. And it was the first time I had ever been offered Braun microphone. They were either black or tan, so they were like, Yeah, pick the one that matches your skin best, and I was like, Whoa, I didn't even I didn't even know what supposed to match me. So thinking about how just in the world we moved throughout, whiteness is always centered. How you can get the band aids, That mattress skin tone. We just got brown Band AIDS like last week. That's crazy. I remember that in In What was that like? Yeah, like not literally last week, maybe four weeks ago. And how long has a Band Aid been around? But that's privilege. Right looking, you know, like people. Now there's now brown bandages. Imagine being able to have a bandage on your skin that does not pop out to stay hand and arm. There's a scar here, you know, even that. So our point of our action is toe like, How can we think through the different ways in the world where whiteness is always centered? How could we flip that? How can we for once, make it somebody else's story? The one that's important somebody else's skin tone, the one that's match somebody else's voice, the one that's heard So in your whatever space that you're in, start trying to think through the intentionality and being like Wait, how my centering the person who does not have the power. Typically, how do we make sure the black voices come first? Black faces come first. How do we make sure the black stories that coming first? Because it's so unequal. But we don't realize it because we just moved through the world because this is the default. So that is what we want people to do. So, yeah, I think through, like, voice is being heard in the meeting. Can can you actually make space for the interim? Say, Hey, I want to hear what they have to say. Can everybody hold on for a second? You know, how do you make sure the person who is up for promotion, the two people who are up for promotion, who equally qualified you're not just going with the white person because they're the culture fit right? That's the way people get passed over when promotions all the time now. Oh, this person is a better culture fit. What does that mean? Because they went to more happy hours. Well, maybe the person who couldn't go to Happy Hour have to go home because that's go relieve their baby sitter and couldn't pay extra like So all of this when you start thinking about the layers of it, artificial intelligence, even how I have a hard time getting the faucet toe work because it's not programmed to recognize my skin. First, it's programmed to recognize yours, so I actually have to, like, spend extra time trying to get it. To recognize my skin is I'm rubbing it under for automatic water and I'm just like, OK, it's not working. Even that is something that people don't think about. Even our artificial intelligence is skewed to center whiteness. All of that in all of our spaces. We got to start thinking about and start figure out how we can undo that. I could talk to you for another four hours, but I promised E again for sure. And, uh, it's important for us to recognize that you've got a book coming out another one, and you're definitely coming back on this show when it's time to do that. What kind of lead times are we talking about? What is this happening? The book is actually coming out in March 2021 boom, nine months. You heard it? Well, her first. You might have actually heard it here first. This might be the first time actually, publicly saying what month is coming out. All right, all right. I can't wait. I'm gonna be working out between now and then getting ready for that day. Um, it was a long time coming, but I could not be more grateful for your time. Uh, we've pointed to a lot of different things with the book and, um, your social handles, But is there anywhere in particular besides Instagrams? L u V I e Twitter is the same, right? You're just lovey. Yeah. One word love everywhere on that's what to v s one. You and to V s. Because thank you for calling because people love putting my name. L u u v And I'm like, bro. No, no. Maybe my visa to for victory. Okay. Anywhere else. You wanna You wanna point people? Hopefully, you also shared the domino dot com. I think we saw some folks shout that out in the comments anywhere else. You'd like to steer people before we let you go. I'm just easy to find online. I want people to follow me. Continue, Thio. You know, just follow what I'm up to I'm always upto a whole bunch of things. I always have something brewing, and I am committed to continue doing the work that I need to see in the world. So I basically end up writing the books that I want to read, and I end up creating content that I want to consume. Um, and I'm gonna keep doing that with as much joy as I can because we need more joy in this world even though the world could be trash. Um, And then I'll do about wearing some cool hats from time to time. You are. You do crush the hat program and the shoe program. I've seen your shoes. I've been on stage with you shoes. 11 out of 10. Jerome says I love this. It's my first time watching you. Um uh can buying everything I can of yours. Creative live, Of course. Want to wait for levies? Next book. Um, Karen, you have taught me so much. Thank you. Capital T capital. Why? Thanks so much for being on this show. Love you. Grateful for your time. Um I look forward to our next one coming up here, probably in nine months. Here in March Chase. Thank you for loaning your privilege in this way by having me. Thank you so much for being on this show. Everyone go check out lovey and we'll see you again. Hopefully, Tom. Uh huh.