Working with Modeling Agencies
I am very excited to welcome our first presenter name is charles lucimar. He is a wonderful and amazing fashion photographer who I have actually been following for a very long time. So this is a personal excitement for me to welcome him, to teach us about working with modeling agent these girls. Come on. Thank you. Really come on and good to have you. How you feeling today? Pretty good. Pretty good. Excited to teach. Yeah, very excited. We are excited to learn audience from you, and I'm going to turn it right over you. Take it away. Thank you. Appreciate it. Morning. All right, so you guys were here for working with modeling agencies? A topic that I came up with about two years ago when I was first starting to want to work with agencies. Actually no timelines a bit off. But it was a question that I had for a very long time because the difficulty is I don't know what they are. I don't know what they do. I don't know how to get in with him. And the biggest question was I was so scared to...
botch it all up, you know, I was scared to to ruin that relationship, so in order to proceed correctly, I wanted to just when you get through the agenda really quickly. And just kind of look at what we're going to talk about today in the very first thing is give you a little background and tell you my experiences with them and and hopefully understand them a little bit better and it's and understanding than we really want to know how they function and how we help them function that's the real key in understanding how we function and how they function of course really boils down to what our value is to them and I think that's one of the biggest problems that photographers have with modeling agencies that is they forget that they play a role in that entire operations and so understanding how you are valued as faras agencies concerned will help you integrate yourself and your image is more so for them to be able to use him of course we're going to talk about how to engage with them will you only want to say what you're going to want to provide them on your first contact with them what they're going to ask of you of course and of course we're going to talk about how to deliver the results that they want to see and my favorite part of this entire presentation a bunch of pictures that will a bunch of pictures of mine that showcase what I did right and what I did terribly terribly wrong so I think that would be very, very interesting to look at so the first part of this is just the background on my experience with asian season again about three years ago I wanted to be agency approved and this is after I shot pictures of myself, family, friends, all the people you would normally have in your portfolio before it's time to really engage with models and that's the thing as a fashion photographer, your portfolio is only as good as the people that you work with that's ah, and at some point in time, you have to recognize that the agencies are huge gatekeeper for that kind of access to good models, better, better models and in my first experience with the modeling agencies, I called up a local agency in l a because I live in l a and there are many, many agencies in l a and I called it a pretty reputable one, and I think I made every single mistake in the book that we're going to talk about not to make seriously. I did I did everything wrong, and I think I could have changed all that had I known how to look at the entire engagement had I known they're a business and I need to help them perform in that business so that's really function, but as time passed my role in my interaction with agencies change over time because in the beginning I had nothing to offer them if you think about every photographer we start from virtually nothing right? You have no clients, you don't have any any you know large networks or resource is so to speak that you could provide them and therefore your value proposition is limited, so to speak but over time as you have cloud as you get clients and you could bring work to these agencies that dynamic starts to shift and that's something I want you guys to pay attention to as that as we talked throughout this entire presentation so if I look at the main difference between two thousand ten in, say, two thousand thirteen now I used to be petrified if I ever had to call an agency because I'd always be afraid that again they would shut me down or say no or whatever but these days I any time I call I'm almost one hundred percent sure they'll pick up the phone because I'm usually calling because I have a client and so as castings our revenue for the agencies they will pay attention they listen so quickly what I've talked about testing and I wanted just to cover what what the test is um testing has roots back to when there were only like ten great photographers they all lived in new york and they're all things and these agencies would bend over backwards to provide these photographers with models because the photographers were testing for projects, jobs basically, big deal photo shoots, and but if you fast forward tio forty, fifty years now, there are a lot of photographers as a result, partly as a result of the digital age, and all these photographers want and need good models in their portfolio. So the result is that now there are a lot more photographers, but the agency's, the number agency's air roughly still to say so that dynamic between the agency and the photographer has changed significantly, because I think in the in the way that before, when a photographer would call in, the agency would bend over backwards it's kind of shifted. Now, when the photographer calls the agency has to qualify whether or not you're even worth, they're worth their time, whether or not they want to work with you based on your either your clients or either based upon your pictures. So that power has shifted significantly, and to understand that, I think will help you really be able to track the agency's better and understand how you are valued in their eyes. I keep I keep harping on this on this idea that collaboration card requires mutual understanding, because historically, as I've spoken with a lot of photographers, I think that that's where the main the main problem arises from just that they don't see you don't see this is a mutual mutually beneficial relationship photographers always look at it from their perspective, and they go ok, well, what's in it for me with it for me, I just need models I need to be able to build a portfolio, but really you've got to understand where it's coming from and what they're seeing out of you. So this light follows on that idea and it's a very simple side, but it's the one that I think most people misunderstand photographers must understand that the end of the day, a modeling agency is a business appearance symbol it's a business, and when you forget that resemble, they're not in the business of charity, and I'm here to help you. In fact, most of time, they don't need you specifically, so if you remember this part of the equation, you'll get a lot farther and you'll get to understand how to work with him. So again, as as we talk about this it's very like charles, of course their business, of course their purposes generate revenue, but I think if you look at it in the grand scheme of things, you'll understand that okay, if their purposes generate revenue than how can I help them, and obviously the product or their services to provide working models to their clients, and in doing that, they have basically three main job duties, so to speak, they find models, they develop these models, and then they connect these models to their clients. And I used these three procure developing connect terms over and over again throughout the next few slides, because that's also what we do for them, as far as the agency is concerned, when they look at us, what is the photographer good for? When that? Well, basically, we bring them clients, we connect them with clients, we can develop their models by either shooting them by giving them images. Um, and then, of course, I've done so for several of agencies I work with, and I found I've connected some of the girls that I've worked with to the agencies, so I procure models for them. And that is, if you think about these scenes that I'm doing as a photographer, or that any photographer can do for them that's doing their job for them, that's what they do normally, and if you do that for them, they will love you for it. And so if you keep that in mind, the relationship works a lot better. I had this conversation with with some people yesterday, and and I'm not saying that agencies are are inhumane or anything, I'm just boiling it down to the basic method bolts I'm not I don't want to talk about how they treat treat their models or whether it's socially responsible or any of that that's not part of this conversation here all I want to do is just be able to shed light on as as far as how they function and what their functions are and to the agency and model is a is someone who generates revenue and the goal is to just make us much money as possible in the shortest amount of time but because we're all you all models well most models are human the result of that is there's a short shelf life so to speak right shelf life being how long a model can work and in order to to capitalize or to take advantage of that limited shelf life agencies will typically try to find models that are young you know you have seen models maybe even at fifteen sixteen start to model and especially the ones that do really well they're they're on covers of magazines or they're in the campaigns so earlier is better especially when it comes to development because there's a whole legal issue of if you're eighteen if you're not eighteen yet you can't sign legal documents by yourself so you need parental supervision are sign off so a lot of what happens when you're a model before you're eighteen is you come to l a ce even if you live somewhere else you worked the whole summer basically you shoot you shoot in utah astor and you you do as many jobs as possible so in hopes that by the time you turn eighteen then you can move out here by yourself and sign sign the contracts and then you're off writing there's no down time so all that development is frontloaded before you're eighteen so of course that being said to the agency they want models obviously with more experience they want models with better portfolio and and of course if they can get him younger that's that's what they seek to do ok, so obviously this is this is kind of a moot point we're not a moot point but is obvious, but as far as the agency is concerned for us it's very similar it's also to help us find models because they're they're a hub their network of models is also to develop our skills because as we're testing as we're doing our own portfolio development it's absolutely paramount for us to have these type of experiences and it's also to connect our network just says nobody everybody in the industry is connected somehow if I have this agency that's a ford or or l a models if I have their network at my disposal that increases my reach, it helps me connect my clients better with with qualified candidates for their next campaign or their next project um and of course if I get to say that I worked with the top agencies of the world that improves my own brand value that makes me better than let's say someone else another photographer that doesn't work with the same agencies so to us it's the functions of the same to procure developing connect and also the bonus when it's to validate our are worth or our brand value. So just out of curiosity does any my timing question so far that will specialize in working with underage models the point that they are well known in I guess given the best experience to energy models that they are promoted to the best ability the photographers that work best with with newer models and they're not always underage but there definitely there's there's a category of moderately calm new face I would say I mean the ones that are doing it consistently because working with new faces is or a new model is very different because it requires a significant amount of hand holding of understanding that it's very intimidating that it's very you don't know what you're going to get I've had two experiences completely opposite with new faces that are totally totally contrast it for example I shot am I shot a fifteen year old who you know given what she told me about herself she was very introverted she was like she was the president of the yearbook team or whatever and and very good grades and whatnot and she was just but the kicker was she wasn't sure she wanted to be a model that was one of the things that I think I saw between the difference the main difference between the two month this this girl she was very introverted and very, very stiff in front of camera which is normal that's what you would expect of a new model who has never been in front of him but then I had this this thirteen year old who again you would think thirteen even younger she's a five foot eleven eight grader you know giant absolute giant but in front of the camera she was just magic and you can't teach that and you don't know where it comes from sometimes it's there sometimes it's not so that variance is so great when it comes to working with new models. So to answer question I really do think that just that experience over and over again if the agency knows that your constantly testing especially with newer faces they're going to want you to be the person who's going to shoot the next new girl in your face because you have experience this question charles from fashion tv and seen or who's a regular here and awesome guy in your experience what are the must have images for a new agency model and what approach do you what approach see you adopt shooting these images for them the images in general s so if I look at kind of the overall looking for you all of the images or the type of portfolios that new faces are new models must have the first thing that comes to mind is they have to have a set of polaroids and what we call polaroids don't necessarily actual polaroids it's just it's just a basic set of images that aren't done up there not made up they're not, um style, so to speak they're just very basic images of a girl against the wall um with maybe a point and shoot they're not retouched and what they are is usually a few face shots and then a few body shots and usually they're in they're in swimwear because the client or the agency themselves need to be able to see that but ok, so that's the first set of images with second after then after that once you get the polaroids then it's about ok how do I make this girl that good? So beauty shots, head shots very basic fashion shots as we're going to see later on and typically against also against very, very clean backgrounds. So if I were toe underlying the theme that runs throughout these type of images, it is simple, clean and transparent I think transparency is a very big big part of that equation because and that's where photographers get lost because photographers think ok, it needs to be elaborate it needs to be different needs to be special is we concept based those air all opposite from transparent? And so as we move away from that, we move away from images that agency can even use so keep that in mind as we as we go through this and the rest of the presentation is a good question so anybody else? Yes, I mean you may be addressing this during your recitation, but I'd like to know from the moment the model walks into the end what's your process and how long uh ok that's a big question and a big question if I would work too keep it if I were to give you an overview of what a typical test looks like typically I'm looking at two to three looks and with average makeup taking about an hour from the moment she walks in, say, fifteen minutes introduction about our of worth of makeup, which gives you time to set up um and about, say, thirty minutes per look so about now. So you're looking somewhere about three hours um on the better shoots that are you maybe want to do more looks you're looking at them before you know five or so but I think I think one of the main things that are the main problems photographers have is they make it too complicated they often do too much on the first time, and so I think the point is to keep it simple don't overwhelm yourself with two hundred fifty images that you want to retouch because that's part of the things that I'll cover later you really only one bill over something like ten images ten to fifteen good images, and you need to shoot them with the intent of providing of the variety that the agency can use, right? Don't shoot two hundred pictures of her face because they can really only, you know, they can really only use one of them, so but that's, a great question is about I would say about three, four hours, so when you refer to a look, what is that going to between one weapon and others, like oppose difference? Quite awesome change typically it's a makeup wardrobe, and I like to throw in the background too, just to make it different because you could you could shoot three looks all the james one background I think that would limit that the variety I think he would just get three looks that are maybe maybe the wardrobe and makeup are different, but really stylistically feels looks and feels the same, so I like to go from maybe and I when I say background also mean lights to I'm changing the light set up so that doesn't look and feel the same now I don't honestly technically no what what other people define as a look but that's that's how I would define a look primarily makeup and wardrobe and then maybe maybe lighting and set miss when you're doing these tests because it sounds like you know that would be time consuming for you are you doing like sort of ah rubric that you have in place? Or do you like challenge yourself to do things differently with different model, you know, like, how does that work for you in your process? Does it that's actually a very good question because nobody does a test for the sake of doing a test, right? The benefit to us is we're obviously developing our portfolios we got better pictures, but on a personal growth level I'm trying to do something different, but I make sure I get the go to stuff the standard stuff first, make sure you get all the easy so in fact the very first set that I'll ever shoot and he used to be just one light rembrandt against against just a great paper now it's not even that now it's just open the studio gate, let the light flight in it's just supernatural she could move anyway now, whereas before she might have been only, you know, limited to, say three but three foot square foot area now she could move anywhere on the paper makes it easier for me be it's very natural and and I know that the agencies can use it and see I know I can I know what kind of results they're powerful they're striking they work but I get hauled out of the way before I start to get creative and when I do get creative I don't know necessarily that I'm going to show the and sees those pictures because you want to guess that you want to keep the story very consistent and so while why when you start to get creative you might get you know, do some lighting you've never used before or you might even let them make up go a little bit farther than you you know you would normally do and that deviates from really what the agency can use the agency wants really clean pictures, simple set ups and stuff that worse once you start to get creative, that might be more so for your own portfolio it kind of makes it a win win exactly like they're and they're ready so like exactly let's get something else for for what you're doing and that might be good for the model to in the future absolutely turns out that's awesome and also of course a lot of that is it's built upon what kind of relationship that you have with your agent it is a person a person relationship so when I say agency I make him seem like a corporation or some, you know, nine human kind of entity it's a personal thing that at the end of day that you work with the better the relationship that you have with that person them or that they'll understand hey, you know, I get that you're still growing that you're still you still want to push your own career so yeah it's ok, go ahead and do that that stuff as long as we get this so wait for right now let's go ahead and okay, we'll come back, there will be more chances to ask questions and so a lot of what we've talked about is that whole value proposition it's that understanding of what I am giving the agency, how they're seeing me, why they will want me over someone else the value proposition is and this quote I like the scope it as I get older, I hear it less and less in it's that famous one from jfk ask not what your country can do for you ask what you can do for your country if you use that philosophy in your relationship with the modeling agencies, you'll never go wrong because you always see it as far as what it is that you offer to them on a business level on a revenue generation love vall on a sustainability level why would they want to work with me over the long run so it's good to understand that because then they'll never say no do then they'll never shut the door on you and then you'll always be able to go from one agency to another and it actually transcends agencies I mean to be honest with you this is a really it's a fundamental premise of all human interaction right? This is negotiation one o one it is trying to figure out how to get people to like you all that good stuff so always remember what you are offering to them and it really comes down to a few simple things it seems like a lot of text but just let me explain really quickly money that's the biggest thing comes down to money okay if you can't offer them money almost as good as gold is tearsheets okay? And if you can't offer them money and tear sheets or tear sheets um give them images can offer them images you might not want to call him so because beyond that unless you say ok, I'm not I'm not even a photographer on the blogger and I have like one hundred thousand followers ok maybe the one talking because you can offer them exposure which is that last thing um but again, if you look at the three things that they do day to day connect developing procure talking about money the first thing that you can do with them bring in the client I had a workshop photographer say to me um I'm totally new at this obviously don't have many portfolio pictures to show for my work but my friend is the ceo of ceo of a vodka company I'm like that's you're in you're you don't even have to have pictures you tell an agency that you have a friend who wants you to shoot the next vodka campaign you're talking about national nash no commercials you're talking about, uh, royalties and all that good stuff you're a shoo in for to work with agencies so if you can bring them immediate revenue they'll be your best friend and they'll jump over the jump through hoops and through fire to get to you so they'll knock down and they'll be beating down your door and that's immediate revenue another source of media revenue a lot of photographers they say ok, well if I don't have clients, why don't I just be the client? You could but that would defeat the long term relationship and purpose of you ever wanting to test with the agency because once they see you as a source of income, why would they ever give away something that you were once willing to pay for now for free? They wouldn't so that you would basically shoot yourself in the foot by saying ok I can I can pay for the shoot I'll be the client no, don't do that we're trying to do that. I prefer if you didn't, um now of course not every day is a client wanting to shoot there and then immediately so if you can prove to the agency and tell him hey, look, these are the clients that I have under my belt cosmetics and women's where and what not and they shoot a couple times a year and I loved establish this relationship with you so that later on when we do to castings, you know, I'll be sure to reach out to you and see if we can find a model that fits that bill they'll remember that they remember all these things because they again this is revenue for them, they need to know who has what kind of clients and who needs to be casting went as a matter of fact, oftentimes I'll get e mails from agencies just regularly checking in with me say, hey charles, I haven't heard from you for for a while is sown so companies shooting again this year we just want touch base with you and that's just good business practice for them because they want to make sure that they're on top of my mind as I want to be on top there mike so if you can't give them money obviously give them images and as photographers I mean that's the foundation we have to be good at photography so we have to be able to teo teo to deliver the type of images that they can use and of course tear sheets are on the top of the image totem pole tearsheet is something that runs in a publication it runs in a magazine or exposure but it's not an ad okay and add would then require you to license basically pay the model have the licensing proper licensing to be able show those images and that's where we all start out everybody starts from zero every photographer starts off from the ground floor and so it's very important for us to at least have a great set of images to show show the port show the company showed the client and then of course show the modeling agency and say, hey, I can do this you know I may not have clients under my belt I can do this and if that this is what they want with what they can use bill of course let you test her models unpaid basis and lastly of course I throw this in there you are network you can always offer your network to them like I said, if you're a blogger with a hundred thousand followers they'll talk to you just because they know that with your network that you can expand their reach their presence it's free advertisement, so to speak. So so consider that these air typically the things that you have as a value proposition for the agencies, any questions about that? That was a heavy slide, so I just wanted to check questions about the money making process and you're walking into the agency and you want to turn a revenue revenue opportunity out of testing. What do you you're taking pictures of bringing pictures back to them and then where and when and when are you making the money after that is what I want to know? There was a time when if you are, if you're testing mario testino and you for whatever reason, find yourself you wanting tio test with an agency, I'm sure there would be all the agencies would be willing to pay because he's mark mario testino um, how I'm understanding the question is basically, how do I get paid to do these tests and good? And there was a time when it was easier. The reality is if I look at it from every business perspective, there's virtually no reason for an agency to want to pay you for tests, depending on what their alternatives are, okay? And so that is the caveat this the one caveat is depending on what kind of alternatives they have. Most of the time I would say ninety nine percent of time they have no reason to pay anybody for tests because right behind you is a long line of people who are willing to offer free and justus good as you. So unless you offer something that's so spectacularly different that is so consistent and unachievable by any other photographer, your chances of making that relationship which is just I'm paying relationship into a paid relationship is going to be very, very difficult it's hard it's not undoable it's doable, but I have only known a few photographers have done it, and if you look at it from the photographer perspective his story I'll tell you this historically the pay tests that have shot I've had a discount, my rates I've had to work harder, you know it's a lot more hoops to jump it's one more middle middle man in the middle in the trying to negotiate what type of looks when, where and it's hard. I'd much rather shoot my regular rate work directly with the client or the model and not have to jump through so many hoops. So it behooves you as a photographer actually not to pursue that because that is such a it's such an uphill battle, right? And so it makes a lot more sense to actually just shoot pay test directly from the model or from outside agency so, but as you're working with agencies, the first contact is really important. Obviously you want to be very clear, I think that the point of this slide is the clarity of how you want to engage with your modeling agency, and typically the first thing that I'll say is, look, this is what I this is why I'm calling everybody wants to know what what it is that you want, and I'd like to cut to the chase, I'm usually in my e mails, so I tell them, hey, look, I'm I'm looking to establish a testing relationship with you agency, and then very quickly, after you follow up with what you're what you've got to offer, because if you don't, you quickly lose their interest, they've got thousands of e mails in their in box, you've got about six seconds, so you better get to the point, make it impossible for the agency to say no. So in your email, in your interaction with them, I want you to lay out everything. I want you to lay out what it is that you want, what you have to offer, when and where you want to test all these all these questions that they would otherwise have for you, and just make it very, very easy for them to work with you, because um if you make it impossible for them to say you say no, you show them pictures that they would definitely want to use in their own website it's it's a foregone conclusion that they would say yes and that's what we're trying to we're trying to open that door or stick your foot in there and keep it open property so we want to make it as difficult as possible for them say no and I keep going back this but it's a human relationship you're working with another person if you become their friend if you know their kidsbirthdays if you know what they've done this week and you ask them how they're doing there remember you all things being equal I'd much rather work with someone who's pleasant someone who's, who's nice and who cares about how I'm doing then then someone who's just very inconsiderate in fact, I've used, you know, models make up artist a stylists that may not even be as good as some other person but there's just much easier to deal with because sometimes crazy isn't worth it. You know? So and you don't want to be that difficult photographer that oh here she has create images it's so hard to get him from, you know that person or it is just not worth it because some at some point it's not worth it, so don't get that and your first interaction, they're going to have a lot of questions for you and this latest prepare you just to know what you're going to be asked for when you need to provide them, and how to feel those questions, because some of these questions are a little tricky there, not exactly as they would seem or as they appear, obviously, in the day and age of the internet, you're not gonna be mailing in your portfolio. There's, there are still walk ins. I don't know if anybody's done a casting open casting where you walk in, you can present the person your portfolio. May they have a look at it, usually a very quick look, because there there are other people waiting after you, but still, at least you get to find someone on a real person. You get to talk to a real person. I have found more success, typically just being able to work from a phone and email, because I can reach a lot more asian. This is all in one afternoon. I can only be in one place at one time, so if I were to go in person, I can only be here and I wouldn't be there's, um, you have to pick your poison, there are tradeoffs, but you definitely need a presence online somewhere where some someone can look at your poll portfolio quickly and just a quick note on that you don't want to overwhelm them if you overwhelm them with, say, two hundred images understand they're only going to look at the first ten and after ten they pretty much made up their mind about you so sometimes you gotta you better point them to a place where they see only what you want them to see that's a very, very important the second question is very tricky what is the concept? It's? Um if you say my concept is it's got feathers, scott often guard makeup in fact, the makeup artist is going to draw a cat eye on her and then with little like rhinestones on the face in fact we're going to do face painting on their on her and we're gonna layer her with twenty articles of clothing and we're going to take her out eight hours into the desert um no yeah so what is the concept is a trick is a rhetorical question meaning you have to tell them what they want to hear and the right answer is it's a simple, clean it's all about the face all about the body basic background may be seamless paper in the studio or even if you do if you shoot outdoors fine it's just a basic background that's not intrusive it's because it's all about the model okay, if you throw that line in there, that's the key it's all about the model it's, not about me it's about my makeup artist, you know, it's, we're not getting carried away, and if you can provide example images to showcase that, then they'll feel absolutely love you for it. They'll definitely say yes, yes, so what photos would work best to put in my portfolio and showing an agent to start testing for them? Great did walk in for well, I mean, in shutting my portfolio, and they seems like more the simple photos of girls outside, like you're saying that my beauty work is beauty work, not something that is important to agencies now. So when I hear beauty there's, a quick economy within beauty, the type of beauty that makeup artists love, doing that kind of conceptual stuff with the rhinestones, feathers and elaborate cat eye makeup, that kind stuff and then there's a more simple, clean beauty that you would find in, say, most of the cosmetic man magazines like, um, you know, just loreal or something like that, okay, my fear is, unfortunately, the images that he has a beauty are going to be too elaborate, and that is the problem is that if you have pictures that basically they obstruct the client from seeing the actual model if it makes it hard for a client to actually be able to determine ok is this model which she looks like what what does she look like if she does she fit my campaign that's the type of mitch that isn't going to work okay? So clean beauty so I mean even with the dark I you don't want to go to too dark and that's how simple it should be it should be just very, very clean it's all about the face nothing that makes it hard for me to figure out what she looks like um and to really back up one step and answer that question the type of images that you want in your portfolio should look exactly like their website that's the easiest thing to do go to the website of the agency that you're trying to or you're aspiring to work with just find pictures of in your port that looked like that cause that's what they want it's very obvious and was taking the time to actually filter through all of this girl's images and then put these specific ones on the website we're contacting an agency like if you usually have like more verve a variety of work where you go through and pick the ones that were specifically in the salvi and see what you put together like a pdf or something and then send them that with those images I would send them I would create ideally, I would create a part of my website that is just here towards the agency, you know and you don't have to call a ceo, you know, website slash modeling agencies, you can just call it a website so simple or something like that, just it has to be a folder and the reason I want to move away from pts is sometimes pds get lost in the transfer that get stuck in the junk mail they take forever to load because they're like ten megabytes, right? So no transfer well via email, but a link will always transfer a link bacon bacon click on their end and it'll just load up properly. As a caveat to that question, though, I do want photographers to provide a quick sample of images in the email, so the thing is nobody's ever you will never know for sure that the person will click on your email or that link they may not click on the link they may not ever see your website, but if you attach or if you're in bed actually the image a set of images you force them to see something that you've done, and I'm hoping that something is strong enough for them to then remember you or at least get them to want to click through right it's a little it's basic sales mission you are trying to get them too to to move on in the next step kind up, sell them basically, but start with some basic images what's that where and when will you test? Obviously tell him when somewhere because they want to know so that they can fit your schedule with the model schedule. What kind of model are you looking for? That's a question that throws off even me to this day because if I'm testing for my own portfolio, I'm not necessarily looking for not usually looking for a specific look, but it the legacy question from back when they used to actually test for may needed a blind that was five eleven that with strong cheekbones for a specific, you know campaign and lastly, of course they want you to send him a call sheet they want to know you know what it is that's definitely very important on dso the next slide we'll look at the call sheet and all it is is basically gets everybody on the same page it's just all the information that you will provide to the agents so that here she knows what's going on he can then or he's here she can afford it onto the model they know what's going on. I think for me the most important part of this caution is the are the notes because it breaks down what I want the model to bring if there is not a stylist, president, and typically for me at least, there is not a solid present because I've learned over time, as I've said it, the stylist can complicate matters, right? So when you work with stylists that want to layer or that you work with, stylists have a very specific taste, I would say, maybe almost all the time it's, it's never that agencies taste because agency all just they just want basic things so that's boring, that's, terribly boring for a silence, no style is that ever going to want to put a model in a tank top and became that's, not smiling because it's not stylish, but more more often than not that's going to work for the agency because you can see her if asians, your body and its uncluttered it's simple and we talked about the the emails and really the point of the e mails are to get all the questions out of the way. I typically like tio lead with an email, and I'll lead specifically ran say, uh, say like, ninety nine a m in the morning with an email, and I know everybody kind of runs through the e mails around nine a m and they look through and find out which ones are important in the last year. But I want to make sure it's sitting in their inbox with that they do see it even though they may not read it and in the email I want to cover all the all the bullet points, all the questions that I know that they could potentially asked me um and so that I can get those questions out of the way so that then they won't ever have to write me back or called me back because the reality is they may not they may have they may not have time to call me back they may not have time to write me back, so answer all the questions that you can possibly answer here. Um this was literally the very first email I had ever written to an agency, ok? And in it the the order of operations is a little bit different, meaning that if you read it, you'll see that I called her first and then I followed up with the email and the problem with that is if you call him first and followed with the email now you expect them to call you back or write you back and you'd rather leave the email in their first then call him because they're more likely pick up the phone and then once you haven't wanted phone, just run through the bullet points and then have them answer yes or no right there and then because after this it's kind of like ok, well now I'm waiting for a yes or no and that yes, you know may not even ever come now I'm just sitting there works best without sounding too spammy like photography for your agency might sound a little two months I always lead with you just won the lottery you know, fifty million dollars or whatever what's more it's only like a prince, right exactly and I get to the point I usually leading with my name charles newsome a um or I actually think that most of my e mails have been so simple it's been just rg cole in charles listen, um I think that's it just just my name or charles was from a fashion photographer or something like that something simply just gets to the point and really I mean no matter what the subject says, I still need them to open this thing up but we talked about that very basic embedding of images. This forces them to see pictures whether or not they click on that link at least I know that they saw three pictures of mine you know, and I prep hopefully chose three good ones that represent images that they would want to see or that they would like me to be able to shoot for them um I also led with my previous experience with one of their models right, so that's any time you talk to someone who is like just a total stranger cold calling you trying to create report you're trying to build report right you want to you want them you want to have something in common with them and so what I was encouraged for my photographers is find a model that is agency represented after you work with them then use those images and then email the agency because there's a lot of there's a lot of ah of sub context type of foregone conclusion type things going on because it basically says if I can work with this model and these are the images I've got then I'm good enough to work with you and so without saying that is without saying it exactly in those words that's the logical conclusion that you want them to get to and charles that squid wants to know who specifically should we be directing our queries to at the agency? Great question general email on the website someone specific I hate the general email generally I just hate general emails on websites and journal because I never know home address I don't know who's reading them uh I don't know if they ever get red so it isn't hard to ask around in fact one of the agencies I usedto that I used to work with a lot actually they put the people who for example of the new faces department the runway department they actually have very emails on the on the website they've since taken it down in this so it just made it slightly more difficult for you to find them isn't hard for them free to find that you see a scene to do that I've done in past call it the eight hundred number or whatever the main line and be nice, the receptionist and actually this ask them, hey, jewish who's the contact for new faces, and then they'll say, oh, it's so so oh, is it okay? If I if I get their email, I would like to contact them? I mean, they'd be more than happy to provide you that information because that is there is a job and that's the thing with agencies is they're they're easy to reach because that's their job if they're hard to reach the camp book work, so to be able to reach them in agency and find the right person to address that should be fairly simple. This next email is this is typically what I'll send out now, ok? Because after you get one agency and yuri about it's a lot easier to then go to the next agency and then find out, just say, hey, I'd like to work with you, I've worked with a b and c agency, and this makes sense, I think, on a lot of levels and I'd also gotten better with getting to the point I stay who I am, what it is, I want where I live, I have a studio, and these are obviously still in there, the images, um, I tell him when when I want to test, I hit basically all the possible questions that they would have. I have hair and makeup ready on day model should provide some basic wardrobe if you do that, it gets the concept and the concept question. Now, the way gets the hair makeup question out of the way gets a styling question now, the way when and where wish him where's your online portfolio and basically shows them, you know what you're talking about, you know what you're doing, so this is going to be an easy, easy process for them. So after you shoot and we talk very briefly about shooting, and I don't want to get into the specifics specifics of it, because each photographer will have his or her different process, but when you shoot, obviously you're going tohave to deliver pictures and that the pictures turn around. We're talking about two weeks, and in the delivery of the images were you shot two to three looks, and you want to provide something like three or more pictures per looks, so that again with variety we're talking about face shots, close props of the face, then full length body shots and then maybe some three quarters or something in the middle so again variety so that the agency ten can use that even if it's from the same look so it's not like three pictures of the same of the face from the same set these days it's much easier for you to use your drop box or you send it or something to send across internet rather than some large zip file or are you know one of the things we used to do with ftp which is talking about client transfers and having to download software now with dropbox it solves all of that all the problems that would come with transferring files and the hardest thing to do is actually try to get feedback for them from them that's the most difficult thing in my experience I hear nothing ever unless it's gone horribly wrong and that's really bad thing if they ever call you you should be nervous because that means something's so I've had a couple phone calls and I think I get to talk about that later so I'll save the stories but they're they're terrifying they're really bad but no news is good news let's put it that way, but no news doesn't tell me what I did right unfortunately so what you want to do is follow up with an email and just say it went really well. I'm hoping, like the images let me know if you have any questions or concerns or anything that you see room for improvement, leave it open ended cross your fingers hope their answer, they answer, but if not, check the web site because they probably won't so, but they will need to use your images for the website. So if you start seeing your images on their portfolio, the model portfolios online, then you know you've done a good thing, you know you've done a really good thing. If your image is thie cover shot for the model that's basically like, ok, that's there they're leading now is your image. They like it that much where that's the main picture that they want all clients to see when they look at them low that's the best thing that could happen, charles, we had a question. Another one from fashion tv models frequently asked for the images that you've shot of them. Do you give images to the models that you're shooting or just directly to the agency? Historically, I've always provided the models the same link that I give the agencies and again at the end of day it's a human, human, person to person relationship that I am forming with asian and I haven't had any agent told me that oh, this, you know, don't don't give model the blood link to the images and primarily for the reason that models move around, they don't stay with one agency forever so they may want to reprint their portfolio for whatever reason and, you know, it's nice to develop that relationship with them. The other thing is also that models and agents in agents don't always agree on which images that they like for their portfolio, the agents typically get the final say, but if the model were to leave, um and then you didn't give them the pictures, then they wouldn't have the ones that weren't chosen right, although all the ones that weren't used are now gone, so they don't have access to that. So it's it's nice that they have access to their own files or to the pictures that you guys have shot with? Yeah, that's a great question, I like them. Any other questions regarding delivering the results? I mean, this is, um I know people traditionally asked format size, resolution, all those sorts of things, yeah, there's, there's a good ones too don't send them raw files for wanting ok, nobody knows what to do with the raw file or a tiff or psd, definitely not layered in psd flattened and j peg and if in whatever native resolution so you you're shooting, say, for example, with my nikon d three it's, twelve megapixels, I send them whatever all twelve megapixels of that image as a j pic file, it doesn't take much space. I'm looking at about two to three megabytes. I'm sure if you have, like a d eight hundred, that zika meal a lot larger, but make it easier from easy for them to download because typically they're not printing large prints from it. At most. They're going to print model portfolio size prints up to, say, eleven by fourteen, but more often than not, they wind up in the ipad on a you know, just a digital portfolio, but yeah, that's so this is where it gets really fun, because now when we talk theoretically and have argued with myself where then I wanted to show pictures, you know, in the earlier slides, I didn't I wanted you guys to kind of lay down. I want to lay down the foundation for how does I want you to think about working with agencies? But now we really get to kind of get specific about what kind of pictures were what didn't and why these are all mine, someone will hurt. Hurt really bad because I like some of them and and then you know but I learned the hard way and I learned the hard way and I want to pass this information on the use of that you don't have to learn the hard way okay? All right one of the big questions that comes up is always black and white ok but why is typically it is ok is very classical form photography I've seen it I've seen black and white images probably just as often as I have seen colored images in l a being a rather commercial market still still accept black and white images all the same but really I think it's more what's in the image not so much the sea you have to understand the state agencies and agents aren't photographers right? I don't know anything about retouching they know no lighting per say they don't know um they don't know the technical stuff so don't don't get hung up on a my using the right lighting is the contrast on the light side versus the shadow side you know correct eyes thie crop correct you know it's all of that is lost to them what they look at the first thing that they look at it's just basically can I see her you know is this again image of her and then more than more often than not I get caught uh you caught making bad decisions on styling and it's probably just because I'm a straight guy and so no fashion sense to begin with but seriously it's more off enough I do I just slapped on the wrist on hey you totally that was like really bad styling or the makeup was terrible and that's that's the other thing it's make up and styling if you stick with the script keep it simple she's not wearing him that is fantastically style yet it's very obvious that you can see her and her body through the image right we talked earlier about beauty shots now beauty shots vary from whoever is going to make up to whoever shooting and obviously but if you give them just very clean beauty very simple makeup you can see the face see the eyes it's not weirdly lit right it's not have split lighting or it's not really dark underneath the ice more often than not you'll find they love these type of images in the first couple years that I started or I was shooting I shot more of these and even a lot of them in black and white that wound up in the agency's portfolios or the models portfolios and even as cover shots for these for these models so it was my it was my go to so to speak because I knew that I could do simple beauty really well and I knew that it would be widely accepted black and white simple um a quick note on styling is that you don't want it to be too heavy ok, so there's a reason why luxury bikini free, simple and maybe not even to clothes so more skin sometimes works really well because you can see obviously you're doing the work for them, you make you're helping them see through the clothes, so to speak. So for example, if I if I have bree here clothes in this top, I wouldn't want to put her in equally black bottoms like long pants for, for example, because then I wouldn't be able to see her legs. And so a lot of times that balanced to me, I think is very important. I want to make sure that there is enough it is just not too much wardrobe and there's enough skin to offset the wardrobe so that the image comes through. The figure comes through that's really what's important here and that's her hair that's where national here and that's basically natural makeup, this styling never gets too complicated with the with agencies we talked earlier about tank top and shorts or even this case laundry bottoms um, simple and again as you've seen in earlier backgrounds, all these backgrounds up until this point haven't wiped even though they've been kind of skewed a certain tone blue, green gray obviously I think we had green here they're done on a white background so you could do a lot on just basically white seamless gray, seamless black, skinless even a brick wall. Um anything that's just consistent and just doesn't get in the way of a shock, the worst thing would be to do would be able tio would be to shoot long depth of field in like a farmer's market something like that, you know way just be just like, you know, you got like, fruit everywhere and people running around and just everything's and just tax sharp focus that'd be the worst thing to do. You can shoot a no farmers market and maybe out like f one point for, you know, everything else has blurred out, but then you've got people watching you, I shoot and all these this other crazy stuff going on so again, there can't be enough to say that I can say about simplicity a little bit about lighting now, ok, the how many of you are familiar with parabolic umbrellas? Okay, so this is just a large umbrella that focus is all of this, like kind of like a magnifying glass into a spot the one on the right was shot with a large umbrella, nothing fancy about the lighting. I think one of the pitfalls that most photographers get into is that they try to overcomplicate things and a lot of that is just a result of trying to injure entertain themselves because they don't want to do this, you know, over and over again there's only so much you can do without parabolic umbrella and basically it's that it's that just won a little bit above your head and just on them and I mean the shot after this this is a pop of flash can you get any simpler than that? No, um but they liked it because really and this leads into kind of the topic of expression right? You want your model too emote and to express and to be able to give you an image that will then allow the client to connect right? The point is for the client to look at this image and be like, ok that's striking that grabs my attention that makes me want to look mohr and digging deeper into her portfolio. So the more evocative images where there's a connection between the the viewer and the image better that's not to say that every image has to be the model looking directly into the lens it's to say that the viewer has to be moved that the person looking at this shot has to be has to feel something because you know we're all inundated by image is just just too many pictures that that exists so yours has to be something that just has to be something about it but it doesn't mean it has to be complicated lighting it doesn't mean has to be photograph photographically or technically um I'm just different right simple usually works better kind of photograph like how to use a retired particular responsibility for this kind of a morning is it something where hey when you try and eat your hair now you know or is it that she's doing something and you're just capturing it is a mixture of those how how do you do with that relationship? The obviously with models is there's a fair amount of responsibility that lies on them on their personality on their skill set the ability to do this what your job becomes then is to then bring that out so and every every person is different sometimes what on one hand, one person is a lot of hand holding a lot of you can do this this is you've got it, you know, a lot of encouragement another person might need to be totally like, pushed and challenged and almost the opposite angle like, hey, you know, I don't know if you can do this, but you know, you know let's see if you can step up to the plate so for example so it comes down to you as a person be able to evaluate the subject you're working with and what kind of button pushing works for that person now, in a broad brushstroke answer of how did how I would do this, um, I put the onus on them a lot of times because again typically the malls I work with these days at least they're not the new ones anymore, so they have a little bit more experience, little bit mohr ability to absorb some challenging right? So what I would say to say christian would be, um, this is a blank canvas is the backgrounds white, the camera throws a hard light onto you, it's all about you and your personality so you can make this as interesting as you want, and I want to see all facets of your personality and I might start just throwing out like different emotions. I should be happy, show me, show me seductive show me, show me sad and just because this is also supposed to be very fun, being able to shoot with a pop of flash means a lot of freedom, a lot of range of motion and I can move around, she could move around, we're not tied to be in one place, meaning it can be very dynamic and going into the technical, I like to keep the fact the flash recycling quickly faster that recycles, the faster I can shoot, the more dynamic this little dance khun b and that means I can get that energy so that she can give me that extra you know, you know, biting the hair or throwing the hair around or tossing and turning and spinning and stuff so but yeah to sum it up I like to put that pressure so to speak on them and challenge them and say, hey, what do you have? You know, what do you got to show me what kind of personality have a question about the simple versus like create because lindsay galleries on and she's saying she talked a bit about modeling agencies as well so if you are going to do something like more creative with um I would you like we e mailed a molly and you're like, ok, I'm going to do some simple shots on quite a few for you and then I want to do something creative once a swell would you not really mention that you're going to be doing things more out of the blocks and then just say you're into simple shots? It depends how how out of the box I think and again I think it goes back to the whole relationship that you have built up with your agent um I mean typically like to be very transparent I don't like to to keep things hidden, you know, especially if you're going to do more elaborate things I think if it gets very elaborate because it means that she'll be there for longer and then the asian might be like well it only tastes three hours to do these three looks how come you're asking for like five or six hours or whatever? Um I always default to just transparency and just tell them because the last thing you want to do is to botch that relationship because everything is a long term plan everything is a I had this one question where someone asked me hey, is it okay to lie to an agency on your first contact? They won't know the difference you know what if I just say that hey, I've got clients that I don't have and I say yeah, that works and I might believe you you know and and they could they could basically prove you based upon that lie but you have to remember that that's not the only time you're ever going to work with them unfortunately this is a long term relationship and if they ever found out it would just come back to bite you in the butt and so as far as doing more creative things absolutely because you're still delivering to the agency images that they would want but to be transparent and to be just honest about what it is you know I have this great idea it's a it's a little bit more conceptual it's a little bit more makeup heavy and but I love to be able to do this with so and so is it okay after we get the standard trusts and with you on, like, still show the agency the extravagant shots even if you weren't expecting them to use it, would you show them so they could see what you have done if it's something that took prep right? And it wasn't spontaneous let's into into sin ears? I maybe if we just finished one shot, are this one look and we just made this quick eye makeup change, then we shot in ways I didn't work or you didn't quite work it was just spontaneous. It wouldn't matter if you showed them or not because it's kind of built off of the other look if it's something stand alone and very specific and conceptual and you've already told agency about yeah, I would definitely give them the minute images just so that they can evaluate you, but as a relationship I would say that kind of stuff for later on once you build that relationship, just start with simple tests and then as the relationship then start trying todo so I mean that's I think the pitfall for tarver's go into it on the first shoot wanting to do you crazy stuff and more often than not they get shut down on the second shoot because the agency goes, oh, well, ok, that was too much um he or she do you then you're didn't give us pictures that we could use or they were just too crazy and we don't want that you know and some of the other pictures that we have coming up I should give them good reason to not want to work with me on the second or third base air occasion outdoors hopefully it's not too distracting in the background obviously any close crop of the face will alleviate that kind of background issue but again try to keep it simple so it's not cluttered in the background so I mean I have a few black and white shots and as I looked through these there's nothing again nothing specifically different about them the the stallion is fairly unusual the black and white conversions fairly neutral and again the background is very, very simple and I think this one wound up as brand is her comp card her composite on the front again legs I think when we talk about body and obviously figure most of time models are off like they have legs great legs so one of the biggest problems would be then to just hide the legs either in a along like pants are dresses and whatnot so for the most part I think agencies appreciate the fact that you showcase their assets obviously very, very simple the motion or the expression is a little bit more evocative this I mean photogenic ce specifically is more editorial as an agency, and they are the new york agency in l a so to speak, so the images that bill they'll take on are going to be a little bit more editorial and that's how also something you need to know you need to know what kind of agency that you're working with. If they're totally commercial, you probably don't want to give him images like this, they can't use it, it doesn't work for their clients, but if they're totally editorial, then the happy smiley, you know, summer sun surf girl look isn't necessarily going to work for them in this case. So yeah, profile your agency and know who you're working with. So the last couple size air, these air the's air even more fun because this is what didn't work and these are their learning lessons. I want you to not have to learn the hard way, so I'm the left on the left side, this image or shot literally within five minutes of the model walking through the studio she's wearing what she came in with she her makeup is exactly the way she walked in the studio with on all I did, if I remember correctly, was I brought in a beauty dish just set it at forty five degrees and she's against the white wall in my office, okay? And that image actually wound up to be her cover shot when like when I was going to the website after I shot her that was a shot that they used the image on the right took three hours to do and they hated the hair the makeup all of which I thought were spectacular at the time were every bit the reasons why it wasn't using any not even in the night even the last page of her portfolio did this image show up so the feathers the braiding the weird I make up those are all kind of the checklist things of things not to do right in fact if there's one thing I've learned is that kind of hate feathers hey is that you don't like fetters um and I don't know what first face painting or feathers probably face painting but then feathers is a close second because I've literally heard this like stated like the feathers have to go so these to the one on the right quickly it was she styled okay it's just those eyes and the eyebrows this is what happens when you let your makeup artist do what they want to do because again they get bored with typical makeup with the dark eye or the smoky eye makeup and if you let them do what they want to do you want to put something like this which is great on a conceptual level terrible on a modeling agency level because the agency looks at this and it goes what happened? Seriously, what did you do to this girl's face? The one on the left? I think it would have been a fine shot outside of the hand in the little veil. Because again, behind that shot is really behind. The veil is just a simple beauty shot of the face. And that would have worked, it's. Just the strange veil in the front kind of throws everything law. Ok, two stories to true stories. The bottom was my very first test. It's also the reason I never called him again, because I was so scared after that experience, because what happened was, first of all, I bit off more than I could chew by asking for two models at once. Okay, um, in retrospect, I'm better with just working with one at a time, because it helps me build report. It helps me stay on track. Okay, that shoot on the bottom was based on some natural I think we called like a tree frog concept. So if you look at the crazy colors of the oranges and the greens of of what would be on a tree frog, we took that color palette and tried desperate onto onto our models somewhat unbeknownst to me, the makeup artist translated that as face painting, and so by the second look we wound up with partial face painting by the third look we wound up with half of our models face painting the next day I get a call from the agent and she was livid not because of pictures could show and seeing the pictures she said what did you do? Our girls face she's going to a casting and her face is stained okay and I was petrified I was like, I don't know I don't I don't know you know what make up our make up our shoes but I remember she told her to wash it off as soon as possible and so I put them into contact with each other but um the short end of the story is that basically I never called him back and never worked with him after that because I was so scared that I basically I basically weeded myself out and just basically said ok um there probably never answer my phone my phone call anymore so I'm just not going to call him but later on it was ok because you know, being a time had passed and uh and I'd learned from my mistakes obviously but the hair not so great either I mean great fantastic for concept but just too strange for her agency type stuff um actually think there were drops ok? It was in the words of was the least of the problems and see you know photographically and you're talking about the the crop or the the angle that you shooter from the lighting that there's nothing wrong with a photography but yet there's all these other aspects that we have to mind as photographers because we are the project managers for the chutes if we don't manage it we take the blame for everything stuff beyond photography beyond lighting is all your fault girls faces stain is your fault okay, so that's why I that's why I go after the simple stuff that's why I tried to remove components that aren't necessary maybe solace is unnecessary let's get rid of the stylist and it's not because I don't like the styles I just think it makes a simpler and when it comes down to make up I'm very strict about makeup now I tell them, hey, this is you know, I have a very, very low tolerance now for going too far with makeup the story on the top is what happens when you let a model tell you how to shoot? Okay, so I don't know if you've ever worked with a model who's who challenged your know how challenged your knowledge and then told you hate you know, I think this lighting is better and my take on it is basically and at the time he said I said, yeah, you know that's a great idea let's do it your way what I didn't realize is that by saying that I'm basically saying, yeah, I have no idea what I'm doing, so you're totally right on this and we'll do it your way and even though she didn't really think that you don't know what you're doing now, she definitely knows you don't know what you're doing because you just took her up on her suggestion, and she knows she doesn't know what she's talking about. So you're obviously in a world of hurt and that's what happened in this scenario is that the model kept asking for lighting that was darker underneath eyes and in order to generate that kind of darkness, I just move the beauty dish or that light higher and higher and higher into the point where he gave me this this lighting now it wouldn't have been such a problem if the agency didn't call me the next day and say or the after, they saw the images and say what happened? And and I'm left with few choices, basically to say it was my idea, you know? And I don't know howto light, which wouldn't work, or I could say it was her idea, and I listened to her even though I should don't have which is also bad, so I guess the moral the story is to stick with what you know and these days, if models challenge me as far as the photography they want some sort of lighting I typically try to reel them back a little bit and I try to say hey lets them you see those pictures on the wall on these walls these are what I do and I do very well and so let's stick to the script and let's try to get these solid images first and then if you want to get creative afterwards we can and usually I say that a little bit more directly but the point is clear that you retain control over your chute right don't let that control get away from you and that that is something that underlines every shoot it's not just the ones with agencies so that concludes my presentation portion I love to hear if you have any comments or questions everyone's loving what what you have presented but we do have a lot of questions I'm going to kind of summarize a couple of the big areas that people are asking about first of all model mayhem getting started what do you think about working with folks from model mayhem or other sources like that to develop a portfolio that even can then take to the agencies it's a it's a resource use it and treated as a resource there there there stigmas with model mayhem because it is such a free and open resource that anybody conjoined and I remember hearing and even thinking myself I live for the day I'm going to leave my model mayhem account why why be like that just take it for what it is it's a free and open resource there are agency models there I've shot plenty of them from them from there now do you want that to be the only source for your portfolio no I would say you need to have a such and such dot com that is yours that you showcase in your own presentation because I think you want to as much as you want to use that resource in leverage whatever it has offer you don't want this stigmas attached to it and I think unfortunately as faras agencies care there is a little bit of an amateur stigma attached to it so it's fine if you find miles from there and use them and whatnot but showcase your images elsewhere I love it it's great on then the second biggest topic is the subject of trade work and finding people to do trade makeup artist stylist what maybe even doing trade group with more experienced models can you talk to trade a little bit? Well everything that we've talked about so far as as far as working with agencies is on a trade basis right nobody's getting paid there's no monetary compensation that's all I give you these images you give me your time this is exactly what trade or tf ptsd whatever you want call it is there is someone out there for you okay when I first started I sent out probably one hundred messages I model mayhem and I think I got maybe five to eight people write me back and of those five hey, I think I got two to three actual shoots out of it so even with starting with nothing I mean I'm talking about pictures of me pictures of my dog as my portfolio I was still able to get two to three shoots from oh mayhem and I say this because at every stage of your career you will find someone who is right there with you on your level whether it's a makeup artist alice or a model who is excited to work with you okay obviously we want to reach higher and higher and higher and keep going for talents that are better right but I can't I can't say I can't stress how much or how important it is for you to find the people who are going to be excited because that level of excitement in that energy and that creative collaboration it's not replicated by just hiring a giselle or heidi klum like the supermodels sure I could hire them but what if if they don't see that I'm bringing value to the table other than the money that I'm paying that kind of energy is is incompatible okay so I would say try to find someone who's at your level who's still growing who wants to test and if they're excited about us as you are about them then that's going to work the best maybe one final question from the audience makeup artist and stylist the models bring clothes or do you are you paying you're artists your makeup artist your order of silence what you're doing if you again going back to the last point tried to find the makeup artists they're willing to work with you on the trade basis because they're still building and you're still building and then you can both benefit from it's a win win situation and because it's not a great long term proposition to be shelling out cash you know for something that isn't paying you on the back end so um I typically in the past I work with makeup artist for trade that's why I shot so many of those tighter crops of the face the beauty shots they take a lot time to edit but since you know the makeup artist is providing me her work for for free, I want to make sure I give her something that she can use a ce faras styling is concerned I've almost always asked the model to bring their clothes through the asians as agent to hate tell tell the model make sure that she brings stuff that we can work with tank tops somewhere lingerie crop top stuff that you know can show her body off right and almost every model has a bag of pre prepped gear or shoot stuff. Shoot wardrobe that they would probably carry and having their clark, because at any given time, they might be asked to go to a casting. So that's. Not difficult for them. So that's. What I would recommend.