Selling a System
We're gonna work on lead conversion, otherwise known as the sales process, right? Most small businesses I don't like to sell most small business owners, you start getting over into that creative class of business owner at all, and it's, like the most insulting thing you can ask them to do, is to actually have to sell their work, but the reality is free scales to infinity, right? Right. We've been talking about giving away free stuff that's been a huge part of how we're going to build know, like and trust? Well, at some point, we actually have to have a process that turns people who need what we do and can mutually benefit from what we do into a customer, and it very much is a process like everything else we've talked about, and I think I talked way back in the beginning about most businesses that I've worked with over the years. This is the one place that could drop me, and if they said, look, you've only got a week or two weeks to try to make some improvement. This is the first place ...
I would go, because most people leave the entire sales process either up to chance or up to whoever answered the fun that day, or just, you know how they felt that day, there's no riel set process that they control and what's interesting is that I found your prospects and your customers they want you to actually control the process they actually want you to deliver them great value, but if you don't have a process that does that, then they'll take it over, right? And the problem with that is have you ever discovered realize this? You're going to kind of say, well, I'm here you know what? What do you need, right? They don't know what they need in many cases they don't know the right questions to ask, but they know that they actually if if you're not going to control the process or direct them into how to get value, then they'll just start asking questions. Have you ever gotten in that position where where you've gone into two theoretically make a sales call and you all you ended up doing was defending yourself, right? What I heard I supposed to do this or what about that and you just bouncing back and forth, you know, basically defending what they know or don't know about what it is that you do, so a sales process is really all about control that allows you to actually deliver value, or at least explain the value that you deliver their five components to it, as far as I'm concerned there's a discovery process there's actually a presentation process, and that could take many, many forms there's the nurturing process not every single person that comes into that hourglass, you know, immediately becomes a customer many cases you sell things that might have a very, very long consideration cycle. In many cases, people are doing just initial research, and they want to see what everybody else is talking about what all their other options are. So there is a a step in there that has to intentionally make sure that you're staying top of mind or that you're staying on option. You're staying in the game, the transaction? I believe that in many cases, the referral and the repeat purchase happened based on how smoothly the transaction, when and so many people in so many cases with small businesses, we want to get him to say yes on dh, then we kind of just let the thing unfold from there, so we don't create we don't intentionally keep the experience as high as it was when we were trying to woo them, right and again, the process of getting more business from the same customer because the process of getting referrals really happens in in many cases in that moment, you know, people use the term buyer's remorse, right? But I think buyer's remorse many times happens not because somebody actually made that decision, and now they're worried about it is because we don't do anything to keep the decision, the excitement, the expectation at the same level it was before they said yes and there's some little things that you can do some little steps that that that I want to discuss and keeping that customer experience all the way through justus high as all of the things that you do to get somebody interested in your business, the review process or the results process again, I believe that I've said this before that another one of those tweeted ble moments a sales, not a sale, as far as I'm concerned, until the customers received the result, so not necessary, the product or the engagement or what you said you would do, but that they did they receive the result, and in some cases, in fact, I would contend in many cases we can do exactly what we promised we could ship what we promised we can do the engagement exactly like we promised, and they may not get the result that they thought they were going to get on but may not be from any fault of our own. Other than we didn't stay with them. We didn't monitor we didn't measure to understand if they got the result I'm going to talk about, you know each of these steps as a set process that you need to build into your sales process into your lead conversion process, so first one discovery first step is to have a plan what what are you going to do when the phone rings you know what are you going to do when somebody refers somebody to you? What is your actual next step in many cases it's about gathering information but there has to be in my opinion a very set next step so that you can actually deliver the value that you deliver so if you get if you get that phone call if you get that lead if you get that referral that you're not simply I work with a lot of contractors and so I always use this metaphor you're not simply drum jumping in the truck with a tape measure and running out to give him a bid, right? Because that's you know that's that's what contractors do all the time and a lot of a lot of cases regardless of what we're selling it could be a website could be photography a lot of times all the ones they're trying to get a price at that point, right? So even if you've done a great job in the know like trust once somebody comes to you, you need to have a process that actually starts your experience from the second that they said they want to nome or the second that they really have said they want to engage so it needs to be kind of you're branded experience at that point chris uh, mark is shared in the sales lion? Yeah, he wonderful block post about he saw that after people contact him to get it was when he had a pool contracting company. If he were able to get mohr information front of in front of them before they got the quote, they were more likely have agree into the quote because of the build like trust, like, well, and what happens to a lot of times when people are out there doing that initial search, they essentially a lot of times, you're all a commodity still, right? There's still, they know kind of what you do, but they think everybody else does the same thing if they say that's what they do, and so if you remain a commodity, you know, jump in the truck with the tape measure like everybody else, then you know, they're not gonna have any way to differentiate what markets is talking about is actually putting up a bit of a hurtled, if you will, so that that that person that's so did you make sure that that person's educated so you make sure that that person understands and appreciates how you're different and what your processes on dh that's, you know, absolutely, I think a given because in many cases, if you don't have that step in the process they they really won't understand well first off if they won't take that step in the process they won't read that material or they won't fill out that form there's a good chance because you've made that process not as a hurdle you've made it about how you start the process of giving them value in many cases if they won't take that step they're probably not really going to be a good fit or they're going to be really a tough client to work with that might be the the first red flag in a lot of ways so we really recommend that that business has come up with some process and again you have to really balance that is this a hurdle? Is this an inconvenience because you don't create a process that maybe you know you we see this I see this all the time cos creative process there's more convenient for them right but is really inconvenient for me so this has to be this process has to be about the way to start establishing how you're going to get value tracy I just have a little a bit to add and there's two ways of thinking well probably more than two but um I almost always insist on a consultation before the photo shoot because I want people to know what they're going to expect how much is it going to cost we're talking about this yesterday um that if you let's say you take someone's pictures and then but they don't know you're priceless and so then you show them your got your get their gallery and they love it and then you're like bam, this is what it costs they're not they're going to be mad, they're not going yeah there it's a bad experience so and consultations are a pain there I mean, to get people schedules together and a lot of people don't want to do it they just want to know how much do you cost? Yeah and that's it so, um, it's it's important to get that information to people well and I think that it there's no question getting that information out getting surprises out I mean, having you call it in consultation, you know, but a lot of cases but you're really what you're really doing if you do this step properly is you're demonstrating you have a very professional process you're demonstrating that there's more to this than perhaps, you know, you thought at the time, right? And so having some of these steps that that kind of demand education, if you will I think or something that you need to put really in front of everybody, it can actually be a tremendous differentiator imagine if they're calling three photographers there palling around, you know, three different people to get and they are just shopping price right when two of them say the kind of depends you know you have to do this, you have to do that and you actually have a process that goes through that it says, look, we could tell you exactly what is going to be we could tell you exactly what you're going to get we can tell you exactly how the you know how this is going to work on, by the way here's some examples of you know how this worked for others, you know, I would like to think that the person you want to work with is going to appreciate that very professional process. Andi I think that that's one of the two one of the things about this a lot of times, you know, people just view this is like a qualifying process and in a way can be toe have something up front, but I think it's actually a demonstration of your least an opportunity to demonstrate how you're different. I had a role modeling contractor I worked with years ago and that's where it came up with that phrase of jump in the truck with a tape measure and they said that's what everybody did they go out there and essentially it was basically I want a price well, it's impossible to quote reminding quite frankly, especially in old homes but that's what everybody wanted on dh, so they were basically pitting each other against price. And so we change the process to be anybody that called came in actually went through this process where they had to actually come to their office for the first meeting on dh you know, they had a really nice showroom, they had all these fixtures, so there was a really good reason for them to come in and talk about finishes and cabinets and countertops and all that kind of stuff that was really going to need to be discussed anyway, and nobody else in the industry was doing it, and they had some people that would balk at it, but they knew that their best customers wanted education, that they wanted to learn about the process, and they wanted to learn about what was available, and if they started the conversation there, they just blew everybody away because everybody else was just coming out and giving a price on these guys weren't the cheapest by any means, so they lost that battle because they were able to do such high quality work. So we have a process that we use. We you've heard us talk about this signature brand audit out there, internet land were actually offering free. Thirty minute consultation with the duct tape marketing consultant. And it happens to be our discovery process in a way. So when somebody actually encounters or wants to hire duct tape marketing consultant, this is the first step that we have them go through because we believe that we can demonstrate we have a questionnaire that they fill out, and we believe that we can really demonstrate we can understand their business. We can understand their competitors. We can understand a few of their challenge is what they're doing right now. And so then they can have a really fruitful meeting with a duck tape marketing consultant and learn not only kind of our process because it kind of the form kind of funnels people through our process. And so what we thought it might be kind of fun to do is take about ten minutes instead of we don't take the full thirty minutes but take about ten minutes and demonstrate on dh kelly is is going to play the role of the consultant, um, and kelly who's going to play the role of your student. Our student is going to be craig craig, r craig from, uh, am travel for business travel, all right, so you all are going to don't pretend like nobody else is here you and kelly are just meeting and she's going to walk you through a little bit of what she's observed it maybe give you I hope you got some tips up lined up for him, okay? And so take it away, ok? Come on up, craig okay, so thanks so much for providing the information that gives me an opportunity to kind of take a look at your business, what you're doing, what it looks like online, so I get to know you just a little bit so that, you know, when we when we meet, I can just kind of ask some clarifying questions, then I can give you kind of some feedback based on what I see. So you started the business in two thousand five and talk about your ideal client being a midsized company um and I know that there are other services out there you talked about a couple of your competitors and what not and what I'd like just a little bit of clarification on is why does that company want to go to a very specific agency to have them help plan their travel? Why not just do it themselves? Yeah, and actually it's small to mid size, so we're looking at companies from two to two thousand employees ok? On a lot of times this group either doesn't know this since he had been in the internet and what not a lot of travel companies that we're doing what we're doing today are out of business so they don't even know that there's an opportunity out there okay? That that is affordable and can save them time and money so there's there's an education play and I think a lot of the competitors that are out there are much bigger and have their eyes on much larger companies, so these small to midsize companies aren't getting the attention that they probably deserve and the truth is a lot of them need as much handholding orm or as a lot of the larger companies okay, so you're what you've done is you've tried to identify a gap in the market place, then the hand holding is how you're different from your competition? Yes, well, what we're doing is we're we're actually providing a unique combination of offline handholding support, easy access, no phone cues, direct phone lines. But with that we've we built our own travel website that's customizable almost to the to this small to midsize company. So if you think of like, I always think of a child in a football jersey like an nfl jersey that that's how I envision a lot of small companies using travel products out there and what we've done is we tried to create a a tight fit shirt for that that child ok so then what about that how do you make that shirt fit a little tighter and cater specifically to those types of clients that's one thing that you know when I take a look at the information that you communicate on the website that's the one thing that I'm trying to figure out is why do I want to use amtrak? What what what can amtrak do for me that either the big company can't or isn't or what is it doing for me that I couldn't do for myself what other information or how how else are you helping we're we're trying to simplify the you know, reporting for example ahh riel time reporting that are offered on so many travel sites are you know, there's drop downs and there's menus and there's all this stuff that you don't really need it just becomes overwhelming and way more complicated than it needs to be so what we are our solution to that customized to this size company would be we've can five basic travel reports a summary of all your travel or you know and those are the ones that we make available okay, so I think I'm getting closer to it and here's I guess the suggestion that I might have for you um we talk about one of the processes that we do with induct eight marketing is encourage our clients or work with our clients to actually interview their existing clients and sometimes what ends up happening is we're so close to the business that we think we know what we're providing, but if we actually asked our customers what they appreciate most about working with us, you tend to get cem phrases and some terms out of that and some themes that start to evolve that can help you kind of clarify those messages in your marketing communication and whether that be, you know, sort of the brochure, the marketing kit, that kind of thing or the information that appears on the website that's, maybe a process that I would recommend is sitting down with maybe six to ten clients and going through that interview process, you answer you ask him about five key questions, but what you're really getting at is helping identify and understand the problem that you and your company solves because what that does then is if you start to use those terms and those phrases in your communication materials, it helps other companies sort of identify that they're experiencing the same problem that and that if you solve that problem for x y z company, you can probably help come to yeah, that's a great idea. I mean, we've been so kind of nose to the ground just like developing products and trying to bring in new customers that that's a great idea, I think that we can gain a lot from just hearing their feedback what they a lot of a lot of remember there's a one list up there john provided of like four questions to ask the customer and each one of those I thought were perfect for for our customers the other piece that can come out of that is when you do those types of customer interviews you can take some of the information that they're feeding back to you and use that as part of either developing case studies or testimonials and you do have some of those on your website and what I think he could probably take them just to the next step in terms of what are the results and the outcome that people are experience sing because it's fine to say you know am travis is a great service but what I don't want to know is why were they a great service? How are they really providing what it is that I need solving? The problem is that I have yeah that's another great point we definitely talked about case studies for example because there's truth is is in our space there's not a lot of company that competitors there's a handful of major competitors and and what we've been doing now is pulling business from these competitors to us and that you know, having them talk and write describe what you know, why did they come to us and what's right about that is is a great opportunity for us right finding out you know what are you doing that the competition wasn't doing yeah okay, you you mentioned some of the areas in which you you know, marketing tactics that you're using free time trial offers low cost trials landing pages that kind of thing can you tell me a little bit about that because what I'm wondering is um you know, how do I learn more about your business before I actually have toe you know, give you my information and start using your service I want to know more before I go that that far one area that I've really been trying to focus on is make it very easy to test us or to try okay, we found that people that actually get in the door and use our services the percentage that they stay is is is very positive so what? The other thing I guess I mentioned with our nose to the ground philosophy, the other thing that we've that we've kind of we've kind of overlooked is uh is the fact that the a lot of these a lot of these companies are coming in and actually just lost my train of thought but um oh, so the so the model that we put together basically was one where we're not we're finally trying to align our costs with a price what we were doing before as we had this one package and our sales people would basically define whether or not they should be handled this way or this way, but the customer never selected anything. So what we're doing now is we're creating two separate bundles where one bundle would be free online and these services and then the next bundle would be a fee online and a higher fee offline and then we're making sure now that we're kind of aligning our so on the right side it's more account management at that level so we're providing a dedicated account manager and things like that um oh and then letting the customers select you know, hey, I'm not ready for this, but I'll jump into this ok? And then it would be our job to try to sell them up to this higher level okay, all right is that it makes sense I think it makes sense and if if I think about looking at the marketing hourglass you know kind of the seven stages know like and trust try by so you got a trial piece in there they get to the point where they're working with you what happens at that point that's where the account manager gets involved, we have a so regardless of what bundle they take, we have a pretty formal implementation process which is very good what john was just alluding to, which is like instead of just this is something we've gotten a lot better at because before it was all right we got him in now just you know, roll it but uh but now it's a very you know, set calendar dh process where were hand holding them we're collecting information we're getting them up and running we have set implementation manager that's actually calling them checking in with them how are things going? How are things going ok and then they get passed off to after the implementation process is over probably about six months we passed them off to a dedicated account manager. Okay, all right, one of the problems that you communicated in their signature brand audit you had mentioned that one of the things that you're trying to do is a better job of lead generation there's a number of things that you're doing in here um like website um paper click advertising where does pay per click advertising take them tio how are you doing with that? It takes them to a landing page that that is where was offering a free month trial they immediately went to a trial is well, yeah, yes, yeah I went right to a try alone now we're gonna try this, you know, zero dollar kind of option and see how how that goes the free trial actually wasn't, you know didn't really it was it not producing as much didn't okay night the energy that we were hoping it would ignite you know where we're saying we're waiving all started fees and things like that and it we did so maybe testing and it was not overwhelming ok? And I think one of the challenges there is that you may be taking from them from the point at which they get to know you so they you know it's the paper clip they find an ad they click on it and you want them to buy right away but you haven't dated them or they haven't dated you long enough to figure out whether or not they want to go down path yet so I think there's an opportunity there to continue the path but perhaps using some education and so this is where you know some information e books and things could be beneficial like you know why does a small to midsize company want to use an agency? What are some of the other benefits of using an agency? How does it solve some of the problems that they have like, you know, the guy who lives out of the suitcase and the abandoned traveler in the snow storm maybe talking about some of those things and how you know your company really provides benefit in that aspect yeah and I have a feeling my sales people will go crazy when I bring that up but I think that because now if I was thinking the numbers just sitting out in the audience today and if you have one hundred people that land on that page and then you get one lead out of it with the fill in forme basically converting to a lead if we were able to provide them to an e page or in a book that described our services in muchmore started establishing that trust and for those hundred people that came we got five leads. Well, then it would it would make everyone will be happier, right? And if you think about some of the research today, you know suggests that we do, you know, fifty to sixty percent of our shopping before we want to talk to anybody from a company. So we're doing a lot of that research online so helping and educating through that process with some of the information that may be on your website that that that would be the other place where I would say I think you could use a little more information on the website we talked about a marketing kit that's one of the processes or one of the tools that we use to help demonstrate the company's capabilities who they work with the benefits of working with them, so maybe beefing that up a little bit I think would certainly help that process where we are doing so much of the research online so give us everything that we need because when I pick up the phone, I'm pretty serious if I'm sixty percent of the way through the process and I'm ready to go when I'm ready to do the trial, you want me to be ready and we want to go for it right at that point so that we were already pretty educated about what it is that you do. The last thing I would ask you actually ask u boat is referral generation you mentioned that that that's something that you're doing, how are you finding? Is that working? Wait a minute, I don't think I mentioned that we're doing it mentioned there, it actually ticked off, I've got a whole new definition of referral, so I am definitely not doing that way, there's a huge opportunity there, I think, in terms of, er working with our customers to refer, and I mean, I'm still a little, you know, uncomfortable with the, you know, asking them for referrals, and I think john's provided a lot of softer ways and better ways I like that reverse referral, right? Uh idea, but I think we're not tapping that at all at this point again, we're like nose to the ground trying to bring in new business, and I think our hourglass I would describe it is pretty leaky. Okay, people come in, and they're leaking out the size, okay? If we could just keep them in there a little longer than maybe, though, right out of the bottom well and that's, how you can see, you know, using the hourglass to kind of fill out the customer experience and fill it with the education process. I think the other thing, one other suggestion I might offer you, and this is just from some dialogue about your business on dh referrals goes, you talked about your sales folks, and that they do have some clients that are very geographically close to them and some prospects kind of in the same areas. And I would say, if I could take advantage of that advantage of that opportunity of bringing some of your existing client base together with perhaps few prospects, and I'm not talking about anything extravagant here, because I think when, when we say that people think, oh, I gotta put on this huge event or whatever I think, you know, you take a handful of them and go toe launch and just introducing people, you know, having some interesting business dialogue, that kind of thing, I think that that can, you know, in many cases, take you to the next level in terms of developing trust that you know somebody else is using you you know, taking them down the path of the whole marketing hourglass in that regard and exploring you for the trial yeah that's a great idea appreciate that well if all those listeners air out there and they don't think this is help for come on this couldn't be better get all that thank you very much you're welcome hustle remind everyone out there in case you haven't heard over the past two days if you actually enjoyed what just happened here with kellyanne craig this is something that you can get for yourself for free by signing up at duck tape marketing dot com slash creative live one of the duct tape marketing consultants will contact you and you can get a free thirty minute evaluation with those one two three action points that you can actually go in and and implement and it's amazing that because everyone was really engaged in the terri really love that so craig thank you for being open and allowing us to do that in public and kelly obviously thank you for your insights but if anyone out there wants that opportunity for themselves go to that link and we'll have the moderators post that in the chat rooms as well thanks thanks guys and really the real reason to demonstrate that to those of you particularly you guys have spent time with us you know you realize that that was kind of a guided conversation that was controlled really by our our process, our methodology clearly it was providing value to the person that participated in and fully but it also allowed us to hit, you know, our seven high points I mean, it's the things it was almost like we were giving and I actually call it internal seminar because it was almost like craig was going through or anybody who goes through that process is actually participating in a seminar were actually we're actually providing our methodology or talking about how we work, but we're allowing them to frame the problem and the solutions and really everything that we suggest in their business, right? So it's really kind of a win for everyone. So if you can think in terms of of a process like that as your discovery process all because a lot of what was going on there is that, you know, maybe that person doesn't end up deciding to hire that consultant, but there's, no question that instead of showing up and saying, you know what? Your problem, craig and, you know, he just goes off this way that way that this way and all of a sudden now, you know, you're like the hockey goalie, you know, it was like everywhere, you know, taking shots, now you are actually guiding the process and getting them to the point that and again this comes about because we've done this thousands of times I mean, we know where they need to end up we actually in many cases know what the real challenges are because you know, after a while everybody has the same problem you know, everybody has the same challenges to a degree all you have to do is get your customer to personalize their problems and then their challenges so in that you know, in that follow up of that meeting if you know if if indeed you know craig was far enough along or the in that process the person that you had a discovery meeting like that with it was far enough along that they actually wanted to hear you know, how you know, how would this work for me? You know, you might also say you might also say, well, let me tell you more about myself how we work you know what our differences may be here's a real client example, you know, here's a here's proof of somebody that kind of had some of your same problems or challenges. Craig here's, how we help them so you you've really guided, you know, this entire process to the point where they now in a lot of ways all they really need to hear is how it's gonna work for them and that's how you take really, I believe that's, how you take selling really off the table, me might might. My guess is you do a process like that, right? You know, what really happens is is the person cells themselves now you will occasionally have an unpaid consultation, right? You'll go and you'll do that and the personal cell that's great, that was three really great ideas, you know, I'm going to go out and do those but that, you know, part of that comes with, you know, you've got you've got to do so many of those before, you really make sure that you're getting in front of the right people. But again, a lot of that has to do with you understanding who your ideal client isn't targeting your ideal client, andrea lee, having your communication, everything that you put out there about your ideal client. But if you do that, you're going to find that this process I got, I really got to the point when I was using this process that it almost became one hundred percent closed because of everything that they did on the front and a lot of times I would prior to that process, I might send craig, uh, any book the seven steps to small business marketing success so he could actually have something that he might read ahead of us. Even getting together so that I know that I could see how engaged he is now. Ready is toe work. So having all of those kind of processes on top of educating them, I can't stress enough how much it will differentiate you from everybody else who is just going out there and and trying to sell him something. So, is there anything from the internet engaged internet world that we need to hear about? You guys have anything? First of all, just again, as after the last session, it's still continue to come through about how amazing that last segment was with kelly and crags and craig just, you know, suzanne s s says, I bet we can all relate to him on the new definition of referral generation. Yeah, yeah. Do you have any questions here in the studio? Ok, so I want to do this. I wouldn't call this a side trip, but it's a little bit of a side trip, so let's say that kelly went and did one of those or you have your discovery process. You're doing your internal seminar aa lot of times you have, we have to develop. This is this is sort of advanced sales skills, but not in a manipulative way, but in a way that actually keeps what? What? The way I always look at anything I'm doing, any activity I'm doing selling wise, is that howto like, how do I keep whatever activity I'm doing the most valuable for both of us, right? And so a lot of times you'll get in front of a client and the zahra siri's have of questioned re directors that that I like to really employ, and I kind of have you sort of get instinct and instinct, ful said, is that the right way to say that in your use of them? But it takes some practice for people in which it's not maybe that natural for but have you ever had, like kelly was trying to say, starting that conversation and somebody'll say, oh, yeah, well, are our real challenges? We just, you know, we just need people to be more productive, right? And so you're off us oyo arts are solution all making more productive, right? What is more productive? Right? So often, you know, p people can't articulate necessarily or don't articulate so it's a really good place to throw any well, can you be more specific? Tell me what more productive looks like tell me what more productive is costing you I think that the biggest mistake we can make when we're selling is to make assumptions about what somebody's talking about and again I just said, you know, everybody has the same problems and challenges you know ultimately but I think you want to get them you know, a lot of the sales process in some cases is changing their mind set you know, a lot of times they come in with the assumption what their problem is or what their challenges and one of the best things we can do I think in selling environment is asked the right questions so that they actually I mean, have you ever had that where somebody instead of trying to sell you something they were clearly trying to get at the root of what I mean a lot of times it might actually be a friend you know, that's not trying to sell anything and they you know and they kind of help guide you by just saying, well, well, you know how things sort of psychotherapy questions, right? And how did that make you feel all right? You know and used in the and in that you know, you kind of kind of go you know, you're right, I'm not doing that right now I'm not so next one is that a question? How many times have you heard ah, prospect sort of ramble on about? Well, I have to think this is like, are you asking me a question? You know, it's amazing how that just kenbrell in the conversation back I asked this when all the time people will talk about you know this thing doesn't work and that thing doesn't work and we need more of this why is that a problem is one of the greatest questions that you can ask because it's like what it's like when I told you guys to go out and ask your clients you know what is it that you do that nobody else does? Will you provide good service? Well that's not very helpful right? But when you start getting at why something's a problem? What it's costing them all of a sudden you can really get at the root of what you can do or you can start narrowing it in how do you measure success it in most of my selling situations when when I have really fumbled dramatically is when I didn't understand what success to the client what it was, what it looked like, how they measure it, what would be a good result you know of us working together on dh it's a really really important question because it it could and should dictate not only everything else you say about what you're going to provide but certainly once you start working together it sets the expectation I loved as start asking some of these questions that start really getting into their heads what would what would it mean to you? What would you do if this problem was solved and again, a lot of times what you're what you're really getting at there is your starting to paint the picture for this is a great question when price comes up in a lot of instances, right? So when somebody starts questioning, well, gosh, that's kind of expensive. Well, what would actually if you actually got the result that we're promising? What would that mean? Right? And I can't tell you how many times, well, I mean half a million dollars, you know, business or we'd meet our objectives or I'd get to go home at night, you know, instead of staying here all day long? And what would that, what value would you put on that? And all of a sudden, you kind of changed the the cost conversation into a value conversation, which is definitely where we want to head what I enjoy most about your business? This is obviously a b to be questioned opposed that way. What do you enjoy most do? What do you enjoy doing most in life? Could be a b c question, one of the things that I think business, you know, I talked about we work with a lot of business owners there, getting a life sucked out of them, and I love to try to paint a picture of what is it? You like you know why do you start this business what's the thing that you like doing the most in this business because you really you'll see them let their guard down and start immediately going back to their happy place right? And so they'll they'll start to tell you well, you know, I started this business because I love doing x on dh so all of a sudden you know your conversation because ultimately that's what you're going to deliver is you're gonna let him get back to that place or at least see somehow the solution for how to get back to that place so that's a really, really powerful question a lot of the challenges that business particularly in b to b environments is that you know they have no time to do what they want to do so how would you spend your time if this problem was solved is another great question you get people to start imagining a better time imagining a better place because of what it is that that you can do for them now again, these this is just a serious of questions is that you know, you kind of pull him out again that's what it almost takes some practice, but but a lot of times we want to show up and just tell him what we're going to fix andi I think being patient you know, having your process so you know, as you saw kelly kind of get guiding craig through this process and looking for the opportunity where maybe he was going off course and you you would bring him back maybe with one of these kind of questions or maybe if you felt like you weren't getting anywhere or if you felt like he wasn't responding you know, to your process a lot of times you're really just trying to you just try to get honesty you know and in your ability to I asked the right question at the right time is what lets people lower their guard and I will tell you in my experience even though sometimes it's hard to ask some of these questions it is how you build trust because people you know, asking the hard questions pointing out where people are wrong, you know, pointing out where and I don't mean in a in a mean way but showing them where their business is going wrong I mean, sometimes we don't want to do that because we want to get the sale in my experience is this is how you get the sail that's actually going to last you for a lifetime because you're going to start in the right place so think about in your selling process think about ways that you could actually adapt adopt those series of questions the uh the next phase in the process and actually, uh after a cover the nurture phase kelly, I think I'll have you do the another hot seat in session of that is all right, so we'll have another person come up and share their pain and share what they want to get done, share their opportunity and then as a group. And then again, maybe you could pose that question out to our friends out there listening and in the chat rooms of we're going to have somebody come up and say, here's, the one thing I want solved or here's the one thing I want to do next week and, gosh, give me some suggestions on how I could get that done, okay, so the nurturing phase this one's, really this is probably the most abstract face, because this one depends so much on the sale cycle. In a lot of cases, in some cases there really is very little nurturing somebody comes to an event, you know, they're ready to buy in other industries, other types of businesses, they're doing all kinds of research. One of my favorites is when somebody gets referred to you, sometimes they get referred because their their friend knows they need what you d'oh, but they don't know that they need what you do yet, right? So sometimes a lot of education has to go on in that process. So one of the things that you need to do is you need in the in the league conversion process you need to whether it's mental or it's a checklist or it's a cr and function you need to actually really segment how did they come in? Right? So where in the hourglass did that come in? Did they get referred? I mean, you really need to have almost almost be ready to to implement a different process dependent upon how they came in if somebody gets referred to you, I almost I tell you, the mistake that I used to make was my assumption was they got referred to me, so I should just go in there and get the money, right? But it's probably the biggest mistake possible because a lot of times what happens is they haven't done they know, like and trust their friend, and so consequently, you're going to benefit from some of that, but in most cases they haven't researched, they haven't done them have gone through your process, they and the mistake a lot of people make is they circumvent the whole process, right? Well, we don't need a discovery foremost come out and tell you what we do right and that's a huge mistake, I would make the assumption when somebody is referred, the only thing they won't do is throw you out right, because, you know, unless they didn't really like the person that river jew, right, but don't make the assumption that that they don't need the same process. In fact, I often tell people to go overboard, you know, make the assumption that they don't know and they need to be educated and actually give him something you make them a gift, make them a not a special offer necessarily just just do something in the name of their friend, okay, so I used to when people would would refer me like, for a speaking thing or something, I would, you know, I would send them a book or something in the name of the person that that referred me because I wanted to start the process out as a special process, okay? So think in terms of how people come to you and that you can't treat them all the same, but that that you need to have in some ways a process for them now, you also need to think in terms of, you know, do you have different a different sales cycle? So I'm guessing somebody's going to put in a two hundred thousand dollars number? I'm just guessing that numb we've never talked about it, but let's, just go with two hundred thousand dollars, you know, commercial project, the sale cycles probably a little longer than somebody that wants something in their backyard t make things happen a little you know, a little smoother form so you know what when you think about that then you know well how do you feel the gap? I mean, how do you have consistent touches? You know, how do you find out where they are in the process and what they need these air all these are all steps that you need to consider building into your sales process. So have you considered the whatthe sale cycle looks like for your ideal client can you identify do you know kind of what their processes I heard kelli mentioned this in it and you see this research all the time right now anywhere depending on who you listen to sixty five to seventy percent of and particularly in b to b you know, purchases even really high dollar ones the sixty five percent of the decision is made or at least the research is done, you know, before they ever actually reach out to contact somebody. So do you understand the research that they're doing? Do you understand? You know the process that people go through even before they call you I'm gonna leave you on that note these all have you have you guys have to answer those questions you have to consider that so is your mapping out your system your lee conversion system those need to be questions that you're asking yourself and then it's much like the hourglass you know where the gaps right so kelly let's have another hot seat showing tracy come up ok tracey all right tracy okay, so some of the folks who are listening online probably don't remember what you do so go ahead and introduce yourself your company and what it is that you do okay my name's tracy would key and I am a photographer and I'm in san diego okay, so I just want to say that the other day when we started the's sessions I feel like you've made a dramatic change over the last two days because it seems like you seem kind of relieved and a lot more confident and I'm noticing that the questions that you're asking and like an ah ha moment or something have had several ah ha moments and I'm super excited to go home and create my system that's gonna work for me and implement things that I've learned here that I would never have even thought of doing so I I um I worried that this was not going to be something that would work for my business and I for all the photographers out there who are wondering how how is this going to help me? This doesn't really pertained my business it does give us an example ok I know when you came in the first down you even said in your video, I I didn't even know what I was doing in my video, my kid, my son, that I was a mess. It was so I I also want toe kind of say that while my ideal client clientele, my ideal, what I have a passion for is newborn photography, ok? I am not there yet, I don't have the clientele to just specifically take newborn pictures, and so really, I am still trying to target families and moms and senior portrait's and stuff like that, I just need to get a client base, so I think that I've come up with all kinds of great ideas to target them. I even in the last segment, thought that I wrote it down, but I would like tio somehow even maybe, like at a llamas class interview women who are my ideal client, but they aren't my clients to see what what what they're looking for, like what would make them, I guess what I don't know which what is their seal cycle? How do they how are they going to pick a photographer if they dio like what you know, are they going to call me a sixty percent like you would, that kind of thing? So what I suggest you do with that, and just a little bit of background in terms of tracy your scenario tracy had an existing business in arizona has moved to san diego within the last six months and is trying to kind of re establish your business right? And so one of the things that you might do those questions are probably really good questions to ask some of your former clients so we talked about that sort of client interview process because that will give you they're going to be honest with you they're going to tell you what they were looking for they're going to tell you why they selected you and that will give you a lot richer information then then people who actually haven't gone through the process yet that's true yeah that's good so I would suggest that um anything else that you found in terms of an ah ha moment I feel like you're so confident now uh well I the adwords is big I am super excited to do that and I mean I I felt like my online presence was all right but I'm still not getting the phone traing because I feel like I don't have a following and I don't but I feel like using negative words and using, you know, exact phrasing and all I didn't really even know you could do that which you know I learned so much yesterday I thought yesterday was going to be more of ah um I know most of this and I show up on the first page of being and all that, but it's it's not making my phone ring so there are things that obviously I need to do and and implement, like the analytics and all that well, how? Why the people that do call me what? What were they searching for, right? So because I know what to search for to make myself pop up on the first page, but right, baby, after what you pulled don't are searching other things, yeah, you have to put yourself in their shoes um, just one other thing really quickly. Um, let's see any changes in terms of ideal client or any other anything you're going to change? I know I mean it's hard, because again, right now I need clients, right? So my spectrum for who I'm looking for is larger. I still want a typical I still want, um, someone who values photography and who can afford photography. I don't want someone on craigslist looking for a deal that's not where I'm at right now in my business, but I don't think I'm at the place where I can on ly go for pregnant women who want newborn photography I mean, I I I I hope to get there within a year and I do have plans to implement, to do that, that I had put in place before I ever came here. So and I think that's an important piece of the process is understanding that our businesses go through transitions. S and especially if you pick one up, move it to a new location that very business that's very geographic specific picking that up and moving and having to re establish yourself, you're going to go through transition in terms of what you can do for an ideal client and how you're gonna have to change things that you're doing. But then, you know, pulling back from your hourglass, you're the referral piece of that going back to the existing clients that you had and doing that interview process? Yes, because right now, my mean, ever photographers know that it's, a huge word of mouth, is right, and I don't have I was blessed enough to have family in san diego who could refer for me, teo couple girls who needed senior portrait's and that kind of ah was great for a month I had, you know, several girls that needed senior portrait's, but then that then it stops because they don't either know anyone else who needs I mean, I know they were happy with the product and but if they don't know anyone who needs me than so a couple things to think about doing the interview process that you can pull you understand the buying process that people are going through and especially as it relates to people who are doing baby portrait's are newborns and then I think the other one is making sure that you know, using that hourglass to keep yourself top of mind because, um you know, way often forget about having nice portrait's done of our family and if we're not reminded of them well I I the I would love to send like uh it was the post a great quarter here the post grams and the quarterly give certificate that would be awesome for my clients I mean, they would really love that and I can see I mean I can picture, you know, half a dozen of them already that would love to pass it, pay it forward with a gift certificate or pass it on and those air you know, cost effective affordable things that that you could be right it's not really going to cost me anything I mean my time right? So great comments or questions we'll see you know, did we did we hear a really like one burning thing? I mean, I I loved everything you guys were talking about did you identify kind of the one thing you'd like us to help you with uh making the phone ring I know which is what you said don't come up here and say I need more leaves me honestly, I um I had a clientele in phoenix that I loved they were repeat business every year and, um I literally don't know anybody but family and people at church go so let's throw that up so I'm a mom how can tracy get mohr leads how can trace you get the phone to ring knowing what we know about her business and at this point she's already said you know, she she she needs to get customers in order to get more customers right? And so to some extent you know is much more open to, you know types of customers, right? So you throwing that out to just through the other and waken take some responses from in here and we will get some from you out there soon there are strategic partners yeah, I think that's easy like time less intensive way that possibly get out there and so maybe start with identifying partners and I do have actually some not only do I have to, um like drawing drawings for prices including free sessions into children's boutiques in la toya, but I also before I came here made up some albums of my work tio put into doctor's offices as coffee table books so that's I'm hoping that that drives some from traffic to me, but are you active in some mom and talk groups? I am I am and here's the thing, so I want to dio many sessions and I advertised for it and was, and I joined the group before I just joined the group in, you know, advertise for because I didn't want to seem like I just joined your group, too. It felt right, and and the group fits me. I mean, I am active in the group, however, I, um I don't know if they're my ideal client because it didn't go off so well, I don't think I charge too much for me, but it didn't. You know, I maybe I just again test a b maybe I just didn't. Maybe they just more interested. I'm not sure something we sometimes hear from other instructors on creative life. Maybe you didn't charge enough money s o that people didn't actually look at it as anything of value. And why would I spend that money? Right, even the even if it's not a lot. If it's not a value it's a possibility, but we have we have a lot of answers coming in now forget my let's. Check out the video later absolutely ok, so all right, where did it go? I had won that really liked but of course partnering with doctors and hospitals llamas instructors those air coming in a way like this one here it is crystal with the k network offer free head shots for marketing materials as bait for strategic partners so another way you don't know as many people to connect their partners themselves definitely connecting with mommy bloggers, you know and other similar networks there let's see pediatric doctors of course moniker says maybe even local universities to shoot faculty, staff and portrait ce for events again getting to know the doctors let's see photo wanna one class for moms group new baby gift card with her info on the back and distribute that with the local newspaper local target apparently they identify when women are pregnant and market market to them differently as a result, that's true giving away free sessions to folks at church said you're active in your church again facebook contest, baby registry they just keep coming way I mean copy paste all this and I can say all right, thank you so much for sure ok, so we've got one more of those today and and really thank you guys out there I'm sure that those are going to continue to me once that once they start s o that is definitely awesome, so this segment I'm really going to finish up the last step of the sales process the league conversion process and then really talk a little bit about, you know, some ways to create a better customer experience toe while the customer so the last step his transaction so at the very least one of the things that I recommend to really everybody I've ever worked with is to create some sort of new customer orientation it's amazing how often somebody will say they want to buy and maybe you have an agreement they signed and then you go off and or in some businesses that were a lot of businesses the person actually sells the word gets the thing doesn't have anything to do with with doing the actual work and so there's like this huge disconnect you know, because then now the implementation team comes in it's like wait what we said this or who's doing what so actually just you know, I used to call it the new customer kit but it really liked the marketing kid it can take any form it can be a pocket folder with the sweet materials that you hand over when you know the person says yes, I want to do business with you, but the very least you want to create some way that people know you know here's what to expect from us next here's everybody in our organization that that you may need to contact if you know or why like if you have a question about ex contact, this person question about this contact that person you know here's how to get the most out of the product or service that that you just bought here's how to take care of you have the product or service that you just bought here's how to extend the life of the product or service that you just bought, what we need to get from you in order to get started a lot of cases you know, I'm thinking micah is great example of website, you know, a lot of times you can't get started without a lot of information, right? And a lot of times it's exchange, you know, web designers I worked with I'm sure you don't do this but exchange of five or six e mails, you know, to get actually the right information, you know I need the log in for this so now I need the longing for that you know, what if you actually had you know is part of the process here's our orientation you know, here's how we here's how we bring you in, you know, and start giving you a product there delivering what we agreed on here is what we agreed upon today sometimes just actually putting that in writing here's how we invoice for our work here here's a copy of our invoice for example, I love this will be my whole soap upper moment of this one. I love having the conversation about the fact that you get you expect to be paid, and you expect to be paid as you agreed upon and on time right in the sales process, because I think that that that were so eager sometimes to get the yes, we're so eager that that somebody actually wanted to buy from us, that we don't set that expectation, and my experience over the years is the only time I've had trouble with a client is when I was a little wishy washy about that, and you don't have to present this actually in a in an off putting way in any at all, but just have the conversation up front. I think it is extremely professional. Quite frankly, I think that when companies do that, organizations that I do that with as part of the sales process to me, it's, one of the most professional things you can do, and I guarantee you that it will make any questions about, you know, payment, there still are going to be people that maybe you're paying to collect still going to be people that air slow to collect, but it will make any conversations about the fact that you expect to be paid in a certain way and to me what it really demonstrates is a confidence in the value that that you deliver on dh consequently, you know the count any conversation about you know, not being paid is expected you know he's really off the table but also sometimes you make sure that there aren't any miscommunications about that, you know, there are many time, you know, I mean, obviously you gave the example of you do all the work and then you tell him what's going to cost and they're like, oh, I didn't know it was going to be that you know, you want to take away any kind of surprises like that because you know, before it really becomes an issue, chris, we implemented that at the beginning I had a very vague at the end of project this is fifty percent you know, I'm right there but then we went in to find what is into the project me a minute and put that into the contract and it solved a lot of our issues yeah definitely and just just having a conversation that shows, you know, you actually have thought that out and and that, you know, you get every I've tend to find that when people when two parties agree on something they've both communicated say yes, I understand yes, I understand you know, most of the challenges go away okay the review process having some process in which you make going back and reviewing did you get the results? Make it part of the deal, whether it's sixty days, ninety days, you know, whatever make it part of the deal, it allows you tohave a kn invitation basically to fix anything that was broken, you know, that didn't work, obviously it's a place where you can get referrals. In fact, in the sales process for a lot of organizations I worked with, I wrote about this in the referral engine you might actually even start suggesting, hey, we know you're going to be so thrilled with no what we agreed upon today, that at the end of ninety days or after ninety days after, you know, we finished the work, you know, whatever it is in your particular situation, we're actually going to come back to you and ask you to share your first off, we're going to make sure you're thrilled and they were going to ask you to share maybe three other people that you think could get this result to or would want this result need this result. It's really funny about putting that on the front end, actually, in the sales process again, it's all about expectations now when you come back in ninety days, you make sure that they're thrilled they expect that you're going to ask him for referrals it's a great way. Having this results for review is a great way for you to get more appreciation and understanding about the value that you deliver. And for me, it's, one of the greatest, really wake up moments for you to understand that you should probably raise your prices when you go. And when you deliver value, you start assessing the actual value that your clients are getting. You can get a lot more confident about what you should be charging based on that turning customers into advocates. What do we do in the process to really get those customs people that decide to buy from us that we actually work with what we do to start getting them to be advocates for us, the one thing that you can do is go through your process and make sure that you remove all the friction that you can in every single, every single point. You know, we talked about those touch points early on, but certainly after they become a customer, what are all the ways that you convey, remove all the friction make it is easy as possible for them to communicate with you for them to get the result. It will be different for every one of you I don't think you can over orient I don't think you can over communicate I love it when I'm doing I've ordered something from a company that's being custom built and along the process they tell me where my product is along the process they tell me when it's getting ready to ship they tell me when it did ship they're just communicating all along so I'm not just kind of wondering you know whatever happened out there so you know how can you over communicate how can you over orient? I already mentioned surprise I think surprising picking out one of your customers and doing something outrageous for them that they weren't expected we expecting is one of the greatest ways to turn customers in advocates sending him something they didn't order you know whatever it takes get input I really think you know, I talked about that early on when we're trying to decide our value proposition getting input will continue to get input from your customers you know did everything go right here? What could we do better in this one process? You know, how could we educate you more just just make it a habit after the fact of getting input and show gratitude you know when we get really really going fast on and trying to do stuff sometimes we forget that you know I saw in a client of ours I saw a sign that you know, I think really is true that it's something they had about one hundred employees and find and the owner's office says I don't pay your I don't pay your salary our customers do and you know I think that's obviously that's that's a reality right? And I think sometimes we we forget to say thank you quite frankly for for all the people that really impact our business building community out of your customers a sense of really really great examples we talked about customer generated content so I've got it that on there again you know, having video appreciation parties peer to peer networking is one of my favorites so bringing bringing say three customers and five prospects together to talk about you know, a challenge you know in your industry andi actually, you know, you facilitating that kind of discussion using your customers to actually create a knowledge base um you know how can you get your customers involved in actually, you know, answering questions building community there's a the company that actually does very similar to really what I do but they focus in the technology industry and train you know, technology consult value added resellers and they actually create a membership essentially so their customers you know, join this program you know, they actually do training with them and then some of the people in the program actually become become you know, mentors in the program, and they actually start working with there's still a customer, but they actually start working with some of the new people that come into the program. So you know how in many cases your customers would love to beam or involved in your business? How could you actually bring your customers your best customers somehow into your business? What are some ways that you could use customer service as a revenue stream? What about live q and a sessions? Would people actually pay to attend customers who actually pay to bait to you're able to just come and show up and ask you questions on a friday? No, could you open your business up so the prospects could just drop in? You know, for workshops that you hold every friday, so you're beginning one o one mom, you know, type of thing you'd hold that on a friday, for example, and it's open it's always there, you're going to be doing it, you know, maybe you do it online, or maybe you do it in person trading days. Is there any kind of way that you could actually know? Ryan, I'm thinking I think somebody could actually trade in their bag for for a new model, and you'd actually have, you know, days when people, if they wanted you know, on upgrader they wanted a new model you'd actually have, you know, an advertiser day where they could actually turn that in, you know, doing some kind of regularly scheduled, you know, weekly hangouts or actually having you know, maybe membership courses so where you know, you could actually you know you again trace you talked about doing the ongoing training you know, maybe you turn that into not just elite generator but an actual revenue generating you know, some of the people might actually pay you know so much per month to participate it so I'm gonna end it with some tools that you might consider for each of those phases. So we've already talked a lot about wufu another really similar tool for building say that discovery kind of former that discovery kind of process forms stack presentations you know, do you could also do these these internal presentations I talked about you can do them virtually they don't have to be in person aa lot of comes in a lot of organizations I say or using ipads or tablets excellent, so they actually create an internal seminar kind of presentation actually on a laptop nurturing obviously used the heck out of your email service provider or your croom tool to make sure that you're you're setting up routine so that you nurture depend upon the sale cycle couple tools I actually like to use for the transaction part base camp and maven link are two online project management tools great tools if if you want again I'm thinking mike in particular in your case, maybe maybe even told me you're using base camp did you know I used okay, but a tool like that. A project online project management to allows you to set up us basically a project space for a client you can. All the email can go through there everything you need him to do, all the forms they submit, everything can kind of be stored in one place you can set tasks and two duis could be great tools for actually so that that new kid new customer kit could actually obviously be stored in that in that project space for the client there's. Another good one that's think it's think it's still free called asana? Yeah, I've heard that from unfamiliar dishonor and they like all of them. They have free versions. Versions right? Does big base camp as a free verse? I don't think base camp does. Yeah, yeah. Um review survey gizmo get satisfaction, khun b a couple tools that you can actually have the review process so somebody could actually you could actually send them the review process via survey um and then last piece, of course, you know, the cr and peace is a huge whatever you use used something to keep track of your prospects, your customers where they are again, I'm I've said it many times, but I'm a big fan of nimble and then we also use infusion soft, which is kind of a much bigger package. What questions you guys have started here in the audience I'm starting to wear him down. We have questions from the interwebs. Greg de asks when you work with clients, how much of what you've covered over these three days is up to them to implement and how much and what I'm sorry, how much and what is the dtm consultant doing and what components are outsourced or handled by others? So that's a great question actually the way we've structured the programs, the system that we use, the the methodology, the point of view is really the same no matter what, but we have different types of engagements, so we have the ability for people to go through a self study version, so obviously it's pretty much learn and do on your own. We also have the ability to work maybe with much more of a coaching kind of mental, so it is teaching telling you what to do giving you feedback, but still you're doing a lot of implementation and then we also have a model where you can engage what's really more of a true consultant and there's not going to be the teaching component of it so much certainly the teaching element we want you to understand the teaching, but that consultant is actually going to work with you to build a marketing action plan and then to really implement but maura's a project manager, so there, you know, some of it, they will do some of that you'll do some of that they'll bring in and manage third party vendors dependent upon what, what the plan actually calls for. So I kind of feel like we're able to meet every level of type of service and effectively just about every price point. Thank you. That's great ten joe was wondering, how would you hold a peer to peer event with a b to c business, for instance, portrait photographer like tracy? Yeah, well, that's a great question. It is obviously more natural for for a b two b, but using traces example, I think I think actually having a couple of satisfied customers, you know, and again, maybe what you would do is you do it with a couple people that a couple strategic partners that would want to bring together some some new moms, some expecting moms and just kind of have an event that might cover a couple things and the ones that have maybe god just gone through it could actually you know say well here's some things we did hear some things we expected you know whatever you know you could come up with maybe a theme for it I think in her particular case that's that's how I would I would look at it you know just you know what are some of the challenges that you're going to face? What are some of the opportunities that you can do and almost kind of use it as a as an exploring of event with maybe a couple strategic partners all right john well we are it's time for our last fifteen minute break we are going to head into the homestretch relieve some pain tell us about what we're going to do in the last segment well, I was just kidding about relieving pain actually but way really titled this last segment putting it all together and really what we're going to try to cover is so how do you now leaving you guys leaving here you guys that have been out there taking notes or they have purchased of course you know how do you how do you make a plan of attack so you know I told you I think the very beginning you would have lots and lots of notes I'm in tracy's uh book is opened up pretty pretty thoroughly used there and so you know, how do you now kind of decide what do I do now right the other thing that I told you is this never ends right. So there is no, ok. I've only got a week to get it done on dh. So what we're going to really try to do is spend sometime zooming in on some priorities and maybe even getting you all to commit to some priorities early on, but then also some tools on future, okay, how do we map it out? How do we plan? You know, how do we keep it moving forward?