In-Studio Interview with Bill Beer
Great to meet you thank you so much I think that you're still on paternity leave you just had a baby two weeks ago day back in civilisation today oh my gosh makes you think you and I wish I wish I had a picture of her on their power point would have been if I if I wasn't that interesting she would have been the star of the show so well, congratulations just for the benefit of the online audience tell us a little bit more about your role you're a recruiter but tell us about what industry you're in and how long you've been doing it. So I've been recruiting for twenty years uh somehow, um I've been working for twenty years so my I've only ever done recruiting uh I worked for ten years at a firm in new york that in nineteen, ninety three randomly got me into tech before that really was a logical thing to do umm turned into a twenty year career in tech recruiting back in my earlier days it was lower level entry level to mid level individual contributor type of recruiting that started with t...
ech hires for larger corporations it evolved I moved to san francisco in nineteen ninety seven the beginning of the first internet bubble and started working with tech startups then so I have um really almost eighteen years of working in the tech startup community in my twenty years of recruiting, for the last ten years, I've been working for one of the top executive search boutiques in the cunt in the us, we work with all the best venture capital firms on building many companies. They're based here, like dropbox and square, and twitter and yelp and uber. Um, we do searches all over the country, and this is at the ceo level, down to the vp level eso in my career, I've seen it from entry level two ceos of some of the most recognized tech companies out there. What? What changes are you seeing? Like in the last five or six years on how job filling jobs has changed or finding the right talent? How has it changed? Well, you talk about linkedin plenty and linked it is for the best resource. So my old firm that I worked for mild search firm founded hotjobs dot com so one of the early online recruiting sites, and that was in nineteen, ninety five, ninety six, so I've seen that industry grow and and what we first had in those years, and it was great at the time it took the online classified are the newspaper classifieds and move them online like a monster monster, hotjobs, careerbuilder, and they were great, and it was you know, a lot easier to search a lot easier to submit all corporations started posting the whole had email addresses, so it was a logical first step in the in the recruiting process and everybody jumped in there was nobody in the late nineties and early two thousand's who didn't have some sort of online recruiting presence, so that was the first wave um, we had a general economic low, right? Certainly in tech, which is my category, but in from two thousand one to two thousand four five there were some leaner years, but we have certainly crossed the the transom there were online was was the recruiting strategy in last five years, you know, social has really taking things to a whole other level linked in for both a candidate, ah, job seeker and from employers, by far the most useful tool we've ever seen. Um, I don't care if you're a start up company if you're an individual looking for a job, if you're a ceo, no matter what angle you're taking linked in solves your problem it's become a massive sight for posting jobs it is everybody's online bio. It makes it's amazing tool for a job seeker it's also a great tool for a passive candidate opportunities find you when you're unlinked it and that's really, I guess maybe the biggest difference in this generation is everybody can make themselves readily available you could take all the steps that you're talking about to market yourself and there's no um limit how creative you khun b but what you can also do is make yourself available people will find you in ways that they never would have found you before but facebook as well what as a candidate as a zen employer my, um m o these days is if I get referred to somebody through, um a friend they randomly email may just a cold email I do three things I do a google search, I do a facebook search and I do a linked in search because I want to see lincoln is their professional social network facebook is there, you know, just a judgment check. What are you? What are you looking for when you're looking to make sure somebody is not an irresponsible person that is putting themselves out there in a way that would negatively reflect on them in a professional setting? Um so let's let's dive into the but have there? Can you give us an example of maybe someone that didn't you didn't bring forward there's a couple of wayward looking hired this goes back about five years at diversity partners and we hire a certain number of the hires we make our entry level right out of college and thiss young woman had applied to a job at the firm and uc berkeley upcoming grad impressive background certainly a top education and this is what facebook was really just starting to pop and, um, I wouldn't have even thought of it at the time, but some of our younger employees said, well, you let's check it out, and they brought up her facebook page and what was shocking was I'm not talking about, you know, a picture with a beer here or something like that, but it was racially charged comments, I mean, things that you wouldn't want out in public in any way, shape or form, you know, this wasn't poor judgment, it was embarrassing, right? And so it took five minutes to disqualify this person from the job that's an extreme example, um, but I think how people represent themselves it's too easy one of my clients in the last couple years company called reputation dot com, and they have a whole business geared around making sure that your online brand is protected um and it's a way to really secure that whole part of it because there are things that you might not even be aware of or let's say you're a small business provider and people are posting negative things about you on yelp or things like that and in many cases it's somewhat slanderous but there's no recourse yeah I heard a lot of bankers were using that after the crash that reputation dot com really started growing at that time so absolutely but I think a lot of people especially in the younger generations are not thinking about the impact of the photo or thinking about the digital foot transition from student to professional is really mismanaged by a lot of people I have kids in addition, the new newborn a ten year old in a twelve year old and my twelve year old is very active online and I had my perspective is that he's putting a digital footprint out there now that's going to catch up with him? It could be for internships it could be for anything but that's not going away. Um so it's actually changed I think parenting of kids in that middle and high school range let alone, you know, college students who um I just by conducting yourself is enormous normal college student isn't necessarily the way you want to betray yourself as a incoming professional let's talk about the person who is switching industries and maybe, well, we'll take somebody that's not in tech but wants to get into tech and maybe maybe there you know, mid level maybe they're senior person they've got a lot of great skills from another industry, but what advice would you give to someone who's trying to break in who maybe doesn't have the existing relationships and that industry or in a market they've moved to a new place, right? Well, you made a lot of great points in your presentation before there are a lot of ways to find connections when there aren't that they aren't that obvious alumni connection shins friends of friends and the beauty of linked in and facebook is finding how you're connected to people right? So um facebook is equally as valuable as linked in because if you're trying to find that networking connection a personal one is just is valuable as professional maybe even more so because a personal connection might have a more vested interest in seeing you be successful a professional one is a little bit more literal are you do we have a good professional relationship? A friend might take steps that are a little bit different so I'm constantly looking if I don't know somebody myself I go to facebook and I goto linked in even if it's definitely a business connection so you never assume that you don't have the connection what I would say in tech specifically is there is a shortage you know the economics of the tech community are out of whack the supply and demand of good talent is is definitely on the candidate's favor right now um there's just not enough talent there's you know the economy is obviously both domestically and international internationally you know, struggling in many places, not in silicon valley, not in the tech markets in new york and austin and boston. It's booming there's not enough people. There are certain jobs like an engineer, which is very hard if you don't understand how to write a certain type of code it's really hard to break in to do that job if you're a marketer and you and I have had many conversations over the years of marketing an airline marketing tech products, you know, nowadays tech is seeking people from outside the market because they need some new perspectives, so marketing human resource is finance. Those are areas where you doesn't matter. There are no barriers based on your domain expertise, so there are certain jobs that might be impossible to get. Um, so that's a big part of it. So I think if you what I hear you saying is that not see it as a barrier, but look at what you can bring to to the industry may have a skill set that is appropriate or in my situation, we talked about it. Virgin america, they didn't want someone with an airline background they wanted someone with fresh thinking and so maybe there is a real benefit to the fresh thinking that that might be pointed to apply so much of tech is changing so rapidly business models that were in place five or seven years ago are somewhat irrelevant today so you know there are a couple of categories mobile is obviously is hot of a category as any on there was an ongoing joke for many years that this is going to be the year of mobile and one year it became true really when the iphone burst on the scene and then and then from there but for ten years prior it was never really that time so if you have ten, twelve years of experience around mobile many of the teddies mobile companies don't want to touch you because you were part of an outdated marketplace so they'd rather see the you know, a new thinker they'd rather see somebody bring new ideas and tech doesn't have a lot of so many of these companies the great companies that we're talking about a google is a is what a fourteen year old company you know, facebook is seven or eight years and these air hundreds of billions of dollars of combined market cap and combined there just over twenty years in existence so you know, the whole online advertising industry didn't even exist twenty years ago so the rules are always being rewritten so I think people should have confidence that this whole industry is predicated on people doing new things whether it's twenty four year old ceos of sixty billion dollars public companies or you know industry veterans from another category breaking in and bringing expertise on how you get stuff done into tech because there is a shortage of that um how about the classic an informational interview or the coffee request is that value should people try to do what how can you secure those meetings I think yes there are value in my opinion the more of those conversations you have something comes of it you don't know when it's gonna happen it's smart dialogue with people it's well it's going to do a few things it will make a good impression on some was such that they might make that next connection for you if you get introduced well let's say you and I didn't know each other we get introduced if we have you don't know me prior but based on that meeting you might be willing to make a few introductions on my behalf so that's an interview in and of itself to get into your network I think that was what happened I didn't know you then we met and I think I've introduced you to a couple of people tons of people right a mutually well right but you know giving back for that's obviously a big part of the networking is making it you know mutually rewarding but so you have to start somewhere, I get tons, I probably get fifty to seventy cold e mails a week from candidates who are looking to make a job change, or they got referred to me or would have you first off, I could tell you flat out that if somebody references somebody that I respect, that suggested that if they use the right names that immediately pushes them to the top of the list, I don't reply to a lot of those e mails myself it's impossible to manage them, so I prioritize. We don't know if somebody's got a stellar background and I actually take the time to read the email then great, I'll make that call. I probably miss that a lot of the time because without some, if it just looks like another generic hi, I'd like to meet you it's really easy to push that aside, right? Dropping the right names helps, you know, for me it's not about and I don't run into this is much I don't know if it is applicable, but the witty or creative approach to try to get boarding passes so it's a little bit different from me because I'm different level and also I'm in yes it's a different level and I'm not the end. Game right on the stepping stone to get to the right people so if people do their research they know that I know a lot of people think right and if they're smart they'll try to leverage that um but so they I like direct I like here's why you should talk to me keep it short keep it sweet mention the right names you mentioned something specifically that you've achieved I get a lot of the same generic I helped grow this company from x to y and I was here for that and I'm like that that script that sounds like everybody else something has to sound different or unique or it's a day where I happen to be interested in meeting somebody like that so it's very random like getting that coffee meeting yeah I think that's why you have to try fifty of them to get ten ten of those might lead to ten other introductions it's a process it's like a sales pipeline you make one hundred sales calls to get you know a handful of return calls and you know from those hundred you may end up with three qualified leads but that is the process that it takes even in this crazy economics of the supply and demand being all out of whack facebook is still getting inundated with thousands of inbound e mails every day. So while there is a shortage um people are it's still a very messy process of trying to breathe very right, right, exactly let's take a question from the online audience rests is any questions trickling in? Absolutely we have plenty this first one is very interesting, sunny d and this is a question that came from a personal experience says how do you manage a job search in such a way that your current employer won't see e linked in suddenly you're making all sorts of connections, updating your skills and all that apparently, uh, they got called in their boss's office and the bus said, so I hear one of my employees is looking for a new job. Um, how do you handle that? Well, the same benefit that we get from the digital world these days are the risks. So you do run the risk of transparency? I find that job seeking is inherently a private process, right? Employers aren't necessarily really interested in other people finding out that they're pursuing certain candidate it's so inherently, most people are incented to keep things quiet, but you will create linked in activity. My advice to somebody has always be managing your linked in account, so you know not necessarily to prevent the suspicion when all of a sudden your activity rises, but that's, how things will find you if you're keeping a profile updated and you're always using it and that will have the benefit of masking you know, increased activity at a time that you're seeking but your submissions if you apply to jobs on linked in that is not going to raise suspicions I will say that if you're an employee of um oh I don't know, you know hurts and you're looking for a job davis connecting with ten avis employees on linked in is not something I would suggest right staying away from connecting with a lot of people at a competitive er is just kind of good business anyway, especially if it might mean that you're having a conversation with them but that is one of the risks I think you have to be discreet use personal email right? I'd be amazed at how many e mails I get from people's corporate accounts and I think there's a general trust and maybe that's healthy right? We shouldn't feel like big brother is watching but use your personal email you know be discreet depending upon where you work don't use your company computer for your job searching research right? You never know who's auditing what behavior um and those are just some basic rules of thumb but that there is risk of being discovered I think if you're doing a job search you have to be prepared for those contingencies as well you'd be naive to think that I'm very stealth and nobody's going to know about this the other thing that is very common and is that due to all this the same way that I we looking on linked in to find out what my connection is to somebody, the employers are doing the same thing, and one of the things that's prevalent is that the employer will see that you know somebody in common, and they will pick up the phone and call that person, or they will ask that person now that's a big risk that risk exposing people it's human nature, though they don't wait for the reference is to be provided, they will say, well, aiken quickly, because forget the emails you sent. Forget the video note the boarding pass. I'm most interested in what somebody I know in common with, porter would say about her, that is my best way to get all the sudden thing. It happens, and I've been on the receiving end of candidates in an interview process, and I'm working at an executive level on sea level jobs and a rogue employee at the other company starts making some enquiries into this person, and things get flushed out. It could be really messy, so that is just it's a known risk. I think that you have to be aware of, well, I think what you're really saying is, again, the power of your network is becoming stronger and stronger and more important to think about how you're managing it, you're your personal and your professional online and offline brand kind of what you stand for and the integrity of all these relationships and that because we are moving from job to job that you really need to think about, how am I treating and respecting the clients, how my interacting with people so keeping things healthy and positive, is it true you can come back to get you? You know, you don't know when that one thing is going to come back or a former co worker who gets you know, you have that linked in connection where they're called discreetly, you know, to somebody to do a back channel check on you, you conduct yourself in the way that you think is the best way to do it nobody's gonna have perfect relationships all the time, but your network is so exposed right now that you mentioned, you know, be nice to the interns, will you know, you really just have to conduct yourself it's the same way is a, you know, a celebrity has in the spotlight that you can leave your house without being known? Well, the way we conduct our professional lives is it's really all out there for everyone to see you know where this is, the lincoln is the paparazzi of of the professional world, it's a great quote rape so you you just I don't think you change your behavior I mean, if you're kind of a jerky person then that's going to catch up to you? Carmen will always catch up linked it makes it a little easier for people catch you I know that you know often if your entry level a lot of people will do internships I didn't internship to get my foot in the door my first position what do you think about the strategy about trying to be attempt somewhere? Do contractor work try to get in another route? I think getting in the door is the key whether it's an intern attempt taking a job that you view is a stepping stone to get to the next job you're a lot more employable when you have a job that in a related field so let's say you're switching to tech don't set your sights on dropbox square, google and facebook maybe there's a stepping stone process to get to some of those companies. So I think getting in the door in somewhere another and proving working in a fashion that represents the steps you want to take next even if it's a layer below like a free internship or temp or whatever it might be where this is in the tech industry it's the land of the overachievers, the self starters thie it's such a merit based industry in many cases so being in the door um well your friend who sent an idea day teo right to current tv I mean that's basically free consulting for a month and yeah, and it got a job so I think there's a steps you take if you have a good sense of what your end goal is um and you made that one as well, you know, have a plan right know where you're trying to get to and sometimes it's a two, three or five step process to get to that point you don't become a ceo overnight um and I have this conversation with people a lot of times they say I want to be a ceo I say well, that's great if you try to be a ceo now you're going to be the ceo of a mediocre or worse company if you do these two or three things, you have the chance to be the ceo of a great company and that same rule would apply to an entry level employee or you know if you set your sights in the right way to get where you want to die so it's the little steps we talked about about moving in the right direction I have more questions for you, but I want to turn it over to the audience and see if any of our students have a question for bill mcgee you're very, you know, accomplished high level recruiter what advice do you have about all the other recruiters out there because obviously there's different types like there's internal theirs you know, tourists very deal with somebody like that yeah exactly like are there different approaches for different types of recruiters like for example you you know, to get in contact you you need a mutual contact but like are there other strategies for different kinds of recruiters? Well, I think there are and um for so there a lot of crews that will find you I think porter had a point on here which are earlier which is about identifying the right recruiters depending on what your interests are so there's research I think that you could do to find people who are probably gonna b'more interested in your background their engineering focused recruiting firms if you're a pr person going to that firm is going to get you nowhere finding people have a track record of success with pr executives you know by networking with other people in that industry is a good starting point I don't think there's a rule of thumb for recruiters I think there's some of the basics like porter talks about of you know, presenting yourself in a smart, concise fashion I like I want the date and I want it quickly I don't want a full pay I don't have to read a full page cover letter I think that everybody is running a million miles an hour that busy recruiters and those the ones you want to be talking to whether it's in an in house recruiter and a great company or a recruiter at a search firm like mine, you want to talk to the people that are really busy that's you don't want to talk to the guy that's got a lot of free time, so they want short, sweet and they want to see the right things. So if there's somebody who's posted a lot of jobs on linked in, then pick the people where you fit those jobs. What I find is amazing is and this this hurts the whole process of dealing with recruiters and applying online is eighty percent of people apply for jobs are not remotely qualified for those jobs there's a collective responsibility that people have that makes it really recruiters get blurry eyed because so much there's so much waste and, um, misfit profiles before you find the right one, so be short, be sweet and know who you're trying to get to, but there's no one rule of thumb that you know, a recruiter will say, ah, this is exactly how I like to be dealt with. Um, I've told you how I like to be dealt with, but it's not that obvious in most cases, so how about a difficult question to always think about when you're either being offered a job or you're looking for a job what's the best way to go about salary should you tell where you're at first or should you let them offer the money dialogue what's the best way so that you can negotiate your way into a good situation so one I think transparency is great most employers a recruit recruiters will want to know exactly what your situation is today. Um and I had a situation with one of my clients yesterday where it was the head of recruiting at a company that is my client. We both had a very strange conversation with a candidate who was very cagey about his compensation and immediately flags go up of distrust and that trust is like, you know, if you fit the job, a lot of people have the skill set to do a job, but you're looking for cultural fit when you make a higher looking for trust you're looking for like good moral fibre, those are the things were people get derailed. Most people have the aptitude to do a job if they're at this point in a process and immediately we both like boy, that was strange, what is he hiding? And it snowballs from there? Um it turns out it was really a just a poor way of communicating on his part, but that is keep communication being transparent and being direct so there's two parts to the salary ago she negotiation that here's what I have now and that's data that is relevant and required I need that info and what I really like to know is what is it going to take to get this done I'm not interested in in the whole dance here about well you go first no I'll go first and let's negotiate well I'll offer you twenty thousand dollars less than I'm willing to pay so I have room to negotiate I don't I advise my clients to do that I think we go straight forward like what mutually is it going to take what are your requirements mr mrs candidate too to join this company here is where we're thinking of compensation how do we find a way to be mutually beneficial um but I really think straight forward I think transparent I think knowing in your mind what my number is I find that rarely are people undercutting themselves most people's desires are either at or exceeding the top limits of what they get paid because everybody wants to get paid as much as possible so very few people are marketing themselves below what the market offers um so I think transparency is the king it cz the first negotiating your compensation package is the first business transaction that you will have with the company and interview is separate right but that's the precursor to your job um and that is the first test of what is it like to do business with you and it could be really mismanaged on both sides, right? Um we had a question that came in yesterday it actually might have been an email that I received last night after the course and it was from someone saying uh, you know, the person was feeling stressed that they had just lost their position at a company and we know that there should not be ageism in the marketplace but you know, I do think that it comes into play subconsciously that people are thinking about it, so the question was, you know, I'm in my forties or fifties and I all of a sudden I have found myself unemployed what do I dio so you know, my response back was figuring out the passions where you're trying to go packaging your skills, but you know, there can be places in the life stage where do you think what am I going to do? So how do you how do you coach and help people that have lost a job either because of economic downturn may be a company goes out of business and are really at ground zero trying to find out something? Well, I'd say first off that isn't necessarily my area of expertise I've done that a lot um but mohr of what I'm doing on a regular basis is actually taking the gainfully employed and trying to steal them from one company to the other. So now in the course of that, I've developed a lot of professional relationships, and many of those people find themselves on the short end of ah, layoff merged company transition where mergers. So I've certainly been there many times, and, you know, first, I think you mentioned a judge on dh there absolutely is ageism in the market and there's also some companies that are better suited based on what stage of life you're at, you know, there's some tech companies where the average age of the employees twenty seven, so if you're fifty five and you're trying to figure out that next move, that may not be the right fit, so, you know, glass door is ah, is a really good sight when you're trying to research cultures and styles. I don't know if you've heard of that, but I haven't. So glass doors great, it's, actually, a great compliment to linked in is how you find your connection. You might apply for the job class stores. Great place for researching how to interview for certain jobs candidates who interviewed at companies will post information on glass door, but what the interview process and they post anonymously, it's can be anonymous, it can be you know, very straightforward as well, but they'll also talk about what it's like to work at certain companies, so I think they're, you know, what I would suggest is try to focus on the places where you know, they your peer group might be well represented in those companies on there's, certainly plenty of that out there, um, look, being laid off is a stressful I don't care what stage of life here in we've certainly seen in the tech industry, it doesn't matter what age you were in two thousand one, you know, people were going bankrupt, they were out of work for a couple of years, it was it was very messy, so I think what you really have to do is just get scrappy. Well, I think even as recent as two thousand eight, where he certainly had a lot of stress in the market, I want to be respectful of your time, especially cause I know you have a newborn at home, and this will be your first day back, any last questions, either from our audience here or online. So your comment about sharing your current salary and, you know, basically being transparent about all that I've got a little bit of pushback from the chat room people are are saying, um, let's see, it was like how are you ever supposed to increase your income bracket if you're saying this is what I'm getting paid? How do you how do you negotiate that where you're making something and you want to be making more there? There are two parts there's here's where I am now here's what I need to be right and that's the art of negotiation um, I won't accept this job if you offer me x and that's a risk you will have to take, like when I remember when I first started recruiting I had at clients that would ask for a w two now that may even be illegal for all I know, but these were public corporations that we're asking for that information. Um so in my, you know, lying about your comp, I could never give somebody that advice, you know, I think our internal recruiting at virgin america and I believe it legally is fine that you ask on your employment application for the sound of your compass tree and then they check it and so, you know, there are background checks on their ways to do that. So look, I think it comes down to transparency if you're a good candidate on you are a good fit for the job and they want to hire you um then they're not going to undercut you um just because they think they can write, you have to present yourself saying here's where I'm at what I'm looking for is this and so I say you'd be very transparent if the job pays one hundred twenty thousand dollars and you ask for one hundred seventy five thousand dollars, I think you're being irresponsible and and you're playing games right if you want with the max limit that that job pays that ask for that number and you have to stand on the merits of what your skills are but I don't believe in fudging the numbers because I've personally seen that come back and haunt people this gentleman I used the example yesterday he said, well, I make around two hundred k and like my thought is, you know exactly what do you make? So by saying you make around two hundred k to me, that sounds like you probably make one hundred seventy thousand, and it just doesn't instill a good communication transparency trust and, you know, honesty, right and that's just wrong, so yeah, so just t fall it up just a little bit if you don't mind um, there's a little bit question of like, how do you, uh, go after what you want while understanding the realities of the job market right now and people being desperate for work, any thoughts on on that issue? You have to have um a mental plan right? So I want this job I'll take whatever they offer may then that's a strategy right? And you say, well, I really want this job I'd like to make x but you know I'm really anxious to work here and that is playing yourself in a certain way saying the job is more important than you know the few thousand dollars different compensation on the flip side you could try to take a position of strength saying I cannot accept this job for less than x now that is a risk maybe somebody who is in a tight situation and needs that job can't take that stance but it's a stepping stone if you get back in at the job that might be a few thousand dollars less than you really wanted you still have a lot better chance of getting promoted or getting a better job from there so again I think it comes down to two transparency what do I want what do I need and what am I willing to do to get it? You have to really say no if you want to push for the higher number, you have to like any other negotiation buying a car buying a home you know, whatever it might be how far are you willing to push or you know I'm gonna buy that car so just give me your best price I've done that before um I don't want to spend hours going back and forth over five hundred dollars um well and I think yesterday the example where michael soucie was talking about taking jobs where he was, you know, helping friends and gardening and answering phones that sometimes there are opportunities that obviously are more finance short term financial security and we're just looking to pay the bills and that we do that as we're looking and we car about the time and you know, the airbnb renting out of the room whatever you need to do to try to make ends me to eliminate that stress but keep moving forward but I think it's just keeping the goal in mind carry you had a question hi, thanks so much for being here today I spent like once the bottom kind of started dropping out in like two thousand eight being in the administrative end of the world you know generally when things start to tighten up your generally the first to go so I spent a good bit of time on dh underemployed during that few year period on by kind of over committed to recruiters. So what would you say not at the sea level but just as a general level and mid level the ideal number of recruiters would be because I kind of felt at one point that kind of started crossing over and then I had to do way more management with them that I really felt was helpful. So, do you have any thoughts on how to manage, you know, if I have a perfect answer for you on that one, I think that as a recruiter, um, I like to know that I have a strong relationship with a candidate so that if I'm going to put in my time to help you, I have a chance to see that benefit me as well, I'm not doing it. This is not charity. So any recruiter that works with you is looking to profit off of that relationship. So if you are working with twenty recruiters, then that gives each one of them a five percent chance of profiting off of that relationship. So again, I think it comes down to transparency. You have to find recruiters you can trust. I think you're better off with a smaller group of people that you think have your best interests in mind, and they might be willing to spend a little bit more energy on your behalf. Um, as opposed to taking the chance of get your resume and with everybody, um, on the flip side of that, when you are anxious and you need work and you're underemployed, then you take every meeting you could get to, you might have to meet forty recruiters to find the four that you think you connect with and get you and have a good chance to get you that right job. So, um, I think, it's, you know, the situation changes, I think when you're underemployed or unemployed, taking action, having busy days were weakening as many people as possible. It's good for your peace of mind. It'll keep you sharp when you are an interview situation, so if you just wait, send out your resumes from home, don't meet anybody, you're overly selective, you don't interview, you'll finally get your shot and you'll to a b plus interview instead of in a so, you know, it's very situational, but I can comes down to transparency tell the recruiters that you're looking for somebody that can that give you x, right? You need this, you need the job. Are they going to give you the time? If not, you don't want to waste their time? Well, I am so grateful that you're here today and giving us your your valuable insight and knowledge. Can people follow you on twitter, bill beer, on twitter and late in the way we are just like the drink? Uh linked in especially, um, you know, I'd spend more of my time on lincoln than anywhere else, um, yeah, and I'm always willing to talk I enjoy twenty years of recruiting. I have to be able to give back in some way. I make my living off, but I like to be able to my friends have been hitting me up for career advice for us long as I can remember on a lot of these same conversations that we're having, so I enjoy that it's like little waited give back so enclosing what's your one piece of advice for people around careers, you have to be scrappy and hunt on ton because you don't know it's like anything else. There's no such thing as luck, it's putting yourself it is many good situations when the right timing hits so I think that's what career searching is all about? Um, you network super hard. Find your connections, take the chances, send the e mails, make the calls, do something, take action and good things will find you if you do those things, you can't plan it out two it's, you can't write the script that's, right? So put yourself in enough situations where something good is going to come to you and, uh, great. Well, thank you for being here.