Challenges & Applying These Ideas Continued
We got a couple more questions keep we keep gone yeah, ok nathan reign as a question says I have a company called every entertainment it started as an artists incubator and collective like I think doing development sort of work with artists then it turned into a development management company now they have fifteen acts that are playing out should they become a label because they can't manage everybody as is right now okay, well, here's what? You know, you know it's funny for years every loves the idea of being a label. Okay, um we just talked about the old record selling side of this thing is not what it used to be. Starting a label is easy. I could start with you guys ran records that we call it creative live records we get a nice logo and we put up our website and everything and that's great. But if you really want to be in the label business, you gotta have acts that can sell big and you have to have the expertise the infrastructure in the money on to make it happen, right? So if th...
ey've got fifteen next night now in their management company um I kind of understand where he's going with the record everything else because as a manager, if you have fifteen baby bands, I'm going to say it in balmy out did your fishing you're fishing I had one band for the last seventeen years and all my friends go out to get more bands says I got one big one okay I don't need fifteen crying kids you know and distract me from the one that's winning okay, so starting a labels easy being a label is different I kid around whether is my friends and label I said you know I said I spent a lot of time bitching about labels in my career and it's true but I also would tom you know what though it's a bitch being a label okay? You got guys like me come and spend money spend the money guy crying ours got everybody you know give me my money give me this in their innocence difficulty in the winds aren't what they used to be a so if I were them and and you were in the development incubator that I'm just going to say that that's all internet jargon bullshit okay managers air in the development business they're trying to develop an artist managers aaron the incubating business they're trying to develop some talent, right? But if you're going to succeed in the music business, it won't be because you called your company an incubator right that's that silicon valley crap you know, I mean they're in the business of trying to get a business going right so the buzzwords won't say you want to develop an act it's all the things we're talking about here today got to have great songs if you're not talking you're bands about having great songs then you're not being imagine you're not getting those bands out playing gigs if you're developing on that means you're getting them the gig's not the drummer calling up okay if the band needs to go out and make a video, you're the guy that's hobbling the kid at the college and getting the cameron putting this stuff together that's what you d'oh because if you're managing and you're developing in my world that means you're trying to free the artist up to create great songs they turn into great performances to give you an opportunity to turn it into money and turn it into a career does that sound like a business? Yeah so skip all the jargon if you want to be a label, be a label but if you're just gonna be you know another way you signed the band up and I'm the label and I would imagine that that don't don't be one of these exploiting dudes you know? I mean that that bums me out for sure loved open it up to the in studio audience biggest issues in industry because you all come from different places in the industry studio you know, performer business, music business brad what do you I'd like to hear your thoughts on the importance of different merch types, merch sales howto promote merch sales and how much that contributes during a tour and as a band starting up. Um, you know, it's, it's it's connected to your overall success, right? And you're talking about merchandise sales with touring that's where typically most of those sales have happened over the years, right? And you'll find the different kinds of artists do better business in general, for example, I'm willing to bet the ranch that one direction's merch sales are off the hook. Okay, you know, and I know why? Because they're a boy band it's all about being obvious on bet, and they have all their pretty handsome little faces on that shirt, ok? And it's obvious. And so that the little girls that are buying khun see harry styles and see how cute he is and all of that stuff, right? You know, rock band, you know, might do really big business if they've got like this the image of the best ones where the heavy metal bands the greatest example of merchandising by a heavy metal band, those shirts are still around today was iron maiden because they came up with this character, eddie. Yeah, and so that was like the rolling stones had the tongue, which was like their coca cola logo. Eddie was this thing, so they dressed eddie up eight thousand ways the sundown iron maiden did ridiculous merchandise sales, right? There are other bands that want to make their merchandise mohr art items, right? And so I've had a million conversations over the years of I can see it now. I don't have to worry, you know where we'd sit there, and the obvious answer was, hey, guys, how about we get, you know, a picture of the band looking cool tour dates on the bed? I'll come on scene, everybody does that that's I don't want to do that. We didn't want to do something that's more artsy. So you do the artsy thing, and the band guys feel good, but a piece of art for a fan, unless that's so much a part of what the band does isn't as good as having the picture of that handsome singer that you have these dreamy ideas about and that has the tour dates on the backs, and you could say I was there at the forum on june sixteenth, nineteen, seventy two all right, so those are some factors that enter into the whole merchandising equation, right? But I think when bands were first starting off I want to talk about in the context of presentation if you're going to do with the label is which is trying to image things right? You know artist sometimes get nervous when people are trying to paint an image well, then paint your own image, ok, but make sure it's on target ok, so you're going to start a band that the joke was the heavy metal bands that I'll come up with a logo before they came up with a song, right? And you're laughing but maybe it was too maybe I see some of the e m guys they're big on getting the look in the logo based on sitting in the office with some of the young guys that I could just see these guys he my son met a young kid from germany online who is a medium guy in the first thing they were working on was getting the logo on all this stuff, and the reason I say it is because that's part of your whole image is part of your whole brand whoever came up with that tongue for the rolling stones, okay, if you showed that tongue to people, they think rolling stone so that it gives that image so that merchandising is really part of the presentation of the band, right? I even have, you know, silly shirts and stuff, you know, because you wantto you want to kind of get your message out there is many ways as you can right? So the merchandising thing for incubus wasn't nearly as big a money maker is it was for other bands are record sales in our touring income you know and publishing income was much bigger but I think it's all about presenting the band in the way that's true as to who you are right that's also ringing the bell of the people you're trying to sell it teo I mean if you're just doing it for you fair enough okay but if you're trying to sell merchandise we go back to that kid he says I'm trying to treat my my career is a business well business people are trying to sell stuff remember at the top in type of artists are trying they're feeling their emotional and managers and busy people are calculating that's what I love golf it's a score I'm not trying to feel good I'll tell you how I feel good more money I make the better my score the better I feel okay but I'm not creating art you know so that entry present kind of okay jess I like to circle back to the concept of picking your partners okay we've talked a lot about a manager's role in a band's career can you identify some of the other key people that a band should enlist and how to bring those people on lawyer ok? And I'll give you some context um managers are, you know, the real man's years they're going to work on a percentage basis, right? So they got a have some belief that there's some some money coming in, right? Uh, an attorney on the other hand, ok, they won't take on everything they may do it pro bono for awhile but say I'm going to do this, but if I get a record deal it's x ok, so they are hiring hirable if that's a word right? And and I think it's important for people understand that because if you want a present your music to a label or a publisher, which of the two you know, best examples, the thing that everybody fights and we talk about in different terms is that I can't get that person on the phone oh, I can't get them to respond to me and the reason for that is really simple. Most of the people the gatekeepers of publishing and record companies get their contacts, their connections there leads from trusted sources, right and it's people that they've done business with people, that they have a demonstrated track record of dealing with talent understand the business so I might not have the greatest year in the world, but I'm betting that I could get ten people to at least listen to a record right now, I might have to work them in different ways. I might have to take some guy out to golf, right say, look, I didn't come out and play some golf me at bel air and great, you know, and when we're done, did I want to come in my car with me and listen to this, right? I've done all this stuff, right? So it's, a little bit of conniving, but that trusted source thing is, you know, is what they want. So the lawyer, if you can't get a manager, there are some lawyers that could go and have relationships with and are people because they're ultimately the ones that will actually do the transaction part of the deal, right? If you're trying to connect with a lawyer, right, people want to get the big person, but the truth of the matter is it might be difficult to get the senior partner in the company, but there might be a young buck or a buck yet and that's just coming in the company that's out at the clubs all the time because they're trying to make their mark right there, and and all those people are playing and our talent scout, too. So if it was me, I would try to get the firms and see if he's doing it, but I would also be scouring for that person at my level of the game where I might be able to get a meeting because if they like it and they need to get the boss involved now to call the head of the label because they may be just know the junior person member barney and the bullet who's got the bullet look for the person with the bullet, right? So you worked this little chain here, so the lawyer is a key person part of your team because they'll be involved on the transaction side the next, the most important important person is the manager, if you ask me, because they're the one that's going to help you put together the rest of that team, other partners publisher, right? You need to have a publisher on your team. Why? Because the publisher a can give you money being they have infrastructure, people in place that can help maybe get licensing opportunities once they've got skin in the game, it's entirely possible happened a million times where somebody gets signed to a publishing deal first. And the publisher has now got money in the game. Will go out. Trusted source to an a and r per se. I signed this kid. He writes his unbelievable freaking song. You should sign him. Go. Well, I like the songs. I'm not sure I like the the production. Well, I could get, you know, alex, the kid to go produced this record. And so I'll put this person got it again for you. Folks didn't want to know how this go. Go watch that interview with erin baschuk and neil jacobson, who are guys? I mentioned these guys because they're in this pop world without where it's all about finding a song finding of the finding. A producer where is in my world? You had a band. They wrote their songs, we got a producer and you tended to kind of stay with that. Right? So the lawyer is a key person, right? Your manager, clearly a key person. Your publisher is a key person, another key partner, although I think people tend not to think of them as partners. In that sense, there's a record label, right? Because it gets a different ways, but they're a key part of getting you and elevating you to the next level. The other key partners you want to have on board are building relationships with promoters, right? So if you have a successful band, you know, the list of promoters has changed over the years because at the club level it's a bunch of india guys that that thousand sea level up you start to invite in the aggies and the live nation's because they want to control, not control. But they have a vested interest in having a tear. You know, a platform to keep moving people up the food chain, right? And that's. A key part of building a band's career that you play the five hundred seater you saw. You play the thousand cedar and you sell it. I want you guys to watch a video manager, dalton sim. Ok, who's, the manager of funny is the manager of a band called guster, and he and I had a great conversation about how you build a ban each level of the game. You know, when you look at that interview we did with paul toe, let bigtime promoter coachella, but he started as a punk rock promoter in l a he now talked about that whole moving. A band from the five hundred thousand seeded the two thousand zero the six thousand ceded to the arenas to the support slots to the to the tenth slot on coachella and you've already seen bands that started in the tent to coachella go to this stage and now on the main stage right so it's entirely possible that that promoter and it happened with the incubus was with the band at every step of the way right? And so when you talk about making it personal and picking your partners and taking the time to do some of these things we talked about right that's where the payday is for it okay, so those are the key partners for may and there's other ones in their business manager but you know the business manager isn't it's been my experience god, they'll hate me for saying but I don't care I never had a business manager yet that ever help me get a deal ever squeezed a dime out of anybody but I've had a million cargo so see what's going on the way and I was like my feeling was manage jobs get money business managers to count it they'll talk a big different game but I'm here to tell you if the manager and getting my new business manager but the key ones manager lawyer publish your record company promoter and those kind of tie in with where the money was to your day and to that kid that asked earlier show I developed relationships with these people you should develop relationships with everybody you can in the business we didn't talk about networking gear but I'll plug our networking thing we did last time networking is the most important thing you khun dio you need to tell your story you need to talk to as many people as possible you need to put yourself out there I don't do it as much today as I used to dio but man anybody that knows me I'll tell you I was a relentless networker right constantly hey I met you the party sent him to know do this take us go on play some golf but but but even today I can tell you many things I've ice to people and people have tried to get on my web show what have I said how about we go playing well I'll tell you what we'll do with large men man live in the morning and we'll go play golf in the afternoon that's how I got nate ruess from fun on their interviewed his manager take him out to play golf and I didn't want to ask me goes so good when you get me on the show I said brutal it put the data right so networking going out and doing all that stuff is a key thing so go check out that course there I think it was a fine one was it not it wass there you have it okay it's in the course catalog so it's in the course catalog um let's see what are the other ones we talked about we talked a little bit today about this finding the manager getting that first gig there's another video I want you for the professionals here right about how to go out and get a gig now I mentioned this guy jason flom who is one of one of the great music business executives and I say that just because when you see him he'll look like we used to call him shecky because he's like a comedian he's so funny but he has great inside that has a tremendous amount of success and he did a whole video on how to get started in getting that first gig right and this is for some kid that work with it started with some kid trying to enter in but what he did was sorry with this idea of making a personal and doing your homework kid went out and met jason at some conference right so he's out networking put some money and showed up the thing shook his hand and you know there's five hundred people you know shaking his hand but he went from there and started doing some homework and he found out the jason flom played golf okay and so he figured that out and so he went out there and got a glove bottom a glove that had his name on it and send it to the office with a letter so that didn't get in the job but it got jason's attention right? And then you know and then jason was doing ah gigot a college doing some kind of thing like this and sure enough this kid's shows up at that at that college gig again and there's this kid again and now it gives him a sleeve of golf balls, right? So long story short is when jason finally had a chance to hire some young and argon turn kids this kid was on his mind right? My friend neil jacobson same thing was gone to berklee school of music got out of the music is couldn't get a job to save his life, right? So he went into the carpet business selling carpet right and on the weekends he'd be out there selling carpet right? And he was trying to get gigs is an intern wherever he could so we got an intern gig somewhere but here's how he got the intern gig there was a guy he used to caddie for as a kid, okay, before you decide to be in the music biz a guy named tom and it was a big time guy in the record business and so he sends a note to tom and his hair this is neal, your caddie from bella and you for any talk about you know I go out and play golf and so I'm not like looking for somebody to pitch me there but he kind of remember and neil came up with this wacky website you know, ten reasons the higher neil jacobson with the picture you know and all of that stuff long story short he wound up getting an intern gig for free kept his day gig and then ultimately transition from a very successful career in the carpet business to being one of the greats and our guys in the business how do you do it? He made it personal he network he did his homework he was relentless he was determined right and he had a f the gay keep ready he was going to make something happen and now he's one of the biggest and our guys in the business and I say that to you because we talked about at the top there are a million stories of getting started ok? You have a chance to tell your own story one day I'd love to be interviewing somebody that we met here today on my little web show if I'm still doing it and I tell it to all the kids I said I want to be interviewed and now I have kids and I want to be sitting on your couch when and I tell my want to still be there or I'll shoot now two dogs off the couch to make room for you okay any more questions in the chat room to have any more in the room way got a couple more let's go with our friend anthony so I'm at the point in my uh in my career where I feel like I might need to hire a manager or you know, kind of get more out of it in the sense that I want to play more shows and it and I also just want to you know, have the ability to have somebody speak up for me so I mean at this point it probably you know, probably played like five hundred shows like I've played I've played a ton of shows and you know, I just don't have the time anymore you know, kind of just keep keeping at this certain level I kind of feel like it's time for me to move on and try the next avenue and and get a manager what with suggestions would you uh would you give for somebody who's tryingto look for a manager or try to get the attention of the manager? Well, we talked about what gets the attention of managers ok? And they want to see something going on somewhere circle back to the stuff I've done five hundred shows ok so maybe hasn't in fire memories but are you playing those show shows it clubs where there is a score card where there's a story to tell because if you played five hundred shows in the last hundred you were doing two or three hundred people a you should be getting paid okay remember how managers get paid no money for artists no money for manager right? So if they sniff money now or potential money soon remember they don't want to eat the green banana and they want that yellow one ok um then you have a story to tell if we're talking about career is a business if your product is out there and you're not showing enough scorecard then you need to work on that because we're managers want to see that it's almost there they wanted the rial management won't take you to the next level oh you can't hire a manager I told you if you're paying somebody be your manji that's out of manager okay you're just getting hosed you just don't know it or you're so the longing for somebody to take over that role that you're that you're willing to write a check for it right? If you offer to write me a check, I'd say I don't do it for money that had barely people can I just pay? You know I don't I just I don't know how to do that I got to believe that I can make the check for you know so have you been booking all those gigs yourself ah I would say it's a good probably like seventy five percent where I've got paid gigs not not nearly enough okay? You see that's the level up you need to get you so that if you're drawing and you're going back and doing return engagements right if people are inviting you back again that's a good sign okay that all return engagement it's big in the more times you can return the better so I think you're doing the right things by doing the shows now you have to put yourself at risk a little bit more of the dealing which is I got to go and ask for money to get paid in the best way from reason for me to pay you is a promoter is because I'm going to make money right? So maybe I give you the whole door in a club and I just take the bar but if all you got his fifteen and sixteen year olds coming to see you, that won't work for me right? And this is really things that income is played a show once that this was one of the hotels the blockage or something in las vegas in their big room sold it out twelve thousand people right great come back again want to do the show there they wouldn't book us I mean what is that all about? Man which is sold twelve thousand chickens? You freaking kidding may well, you know what they figured out it's all young girls, they're not old enough to drink or gamble. I don't care about your twelve thousand person rials story, right, riel story. You know that that is an actual problem, especially with the elektronik dance community. Young crowd. Yeah, like I I would say it's easier it's. Easier to get the younger kids out, but then it's harder to convince. Uh, you know, like you said, promoters in this situation where it's like, well, you know, we have to cover our financial end. And if you're not if you're not getting people here twenty one plus that's, you know, you get the money. Yeah, exactly. I understand where they're coming from. Everybody's in that mode. The promoters trying to get the money, by the way, for all the folks out there that provide was a promoter for years, you want to talk about a tough business where I had three or four kids on our ass? Grand man thinks that I want to be a promoter in the first thing I tell this year was I want you to dio I want you to grab one hundred dollars bill a real one in light it on fire. We used to do this ritually when I was back it out watch action I'll also tell you we were fueled up on all kinds of crazy back in the eighties but it was a graphic one and actually get it through one of our little red man you things right? Actually a smart guy copy one hundred dollars bill that held it up in front of the camera with our real cameramen there and said, ok, make sure your backups and so some kid thought I was really burned in one hundred dollars bills, but the point of it was it I burned one hundred dollars bill, right? And that bothered you too much, I say then don't be a promoter because you'll be burning a lot more than that, ok, so they want to get their money back to in the quickest way to get a return engagement with the promoters do business for that kid that back there that got stiffed by the promoter. I don't know the whole story and I don't want to suggest, but I'm betting if that kid did three or four hundred people in there, the promoters paying and why because he wants him back if the kid did twenty people and he said, I'm not paying you bad still duly noted but would change you know that guy I thought he was coming back again for more money all right, so you've got to just be able to take those five hundred dates they go countem up and see exactly how many they weren't if it was five hundred freebies go and see if you can get twenty paid dates and get a thousand dollars apiece and whatever conversation you have with the manager is going to get a lot better because you're gonna say no look did I know you want to get the money ok? And I know that every bit of money out there once an opinion so let me talk about some money and I'll get your opinion on it, okay? I grossed twenty thousand dollars last year I think it could be one hundred but I got to get somebody to help take because I need to work on the freaking music here, right? Then you got a real conversation, right? But understand that those conversations you wino is you get to the top and everybody's dreaming and then you've got to really ask yourself are you doing business? Because that's what it ultimately comes down to, you know you can be passionate about music and do it for a hobby remember we talk if you want to go from hobby to living it's simple you got to get paid I think a personal gatekeeper part of it is ah uh trying to stay humble boats still trying to sell yourself and and it's you know it's what it comes down to it's about money I mean it is what it's about but you know being able toe to sell yourself and not and not feel cheesy about doing it or feel like its force well it's what we talked about earlier that artists are uncomfortable doing that but I'm gonna bust your balls here a little bit would you say I don't want to be humble you know no that's you got a little personal gatekeeper if you had the effigy chief jean the ft g k mentality right? You're either going to get somebody to do it or you're going to do it yourself and you're gonna have to ask so what I hear here is I'm a little nervous about asking for money what if they don't like it? It's the same thing that kept me up all last night got cheese I got all this stuff I got eight thousand things I need to start and I wanted to make it perfect and I couldn't I kept terran stuff up and then you know coming in we've had a good time it all works out but I had to walk in here but god, some guys you noted three thirty morning go break legs they actually thought about acting like I broke leg so I could just go back the leg title because I don't know why but I'll set him freaking having an anxiety attack about this because I can't finish this thing, I keep starting, I can't finish, you know, so in the mirror got put yourself at risk or just love the music. You've got a day gig, man, right? I'm not trying to talk about it, but you got a big gig. You're like michael here, you know, he doesn't need to do this for a living so you can focus on just loving it. I wish I could've been a golfer, but I but I can't, but I'll still be out there tomorrow morning at seven thirty banging balls, okay, dreaming of doing something and golf like winning the senior club championship of bel air again. What is a little ten cop makes me feel good they paying the bills? Michael so, you know, over the years, you get a lot of feedback from old fans as well as, you know, you know, young people who discover your stuff and they all want you to, you know, get out there, they all want to hear what you could do now they don't want to hear what you know, sort of where you are now, what's going on now, musically speaking because of, you know, sort of what you know about what's going on in the industry today. Are there people who I don't want to say specialize but who are doing the kind of things where they are either helping to network or pair you or place you with people who are doing things now in the industry as opposed to just sort like getting out and doing a few casinos or you know, any of that sort of like, you know, relived the days when you were a teenager rather really kind of putting you back into the mainstream of uh you know, the music business now, yeah it's an interesting question and I'm not going to mention is where there is a you know, a guy that I play golf with who is is a well known actor, right? Who back thirty years ago um had a couple big hits, right and and, uh, big hits, but it was based some of it was based on his success it's not rick springfield, but it's a similar kind thing where he had some profile was a musician and then had a big hit in part of it was because he had this other profile right? And so we're we're playing golf when he said, hey, I'm I'm one of you I wrote this record ren and I'm really proud of it and he did a video and the video look cool because he's handsome and he's that's his business he just knows how to be a star and uh but he want to resurrect his career right and or revisit his career after this long gap right? And and he still like you has fans and twitter followers, but in some ways their connection is that moment where they first connected and so it's it's revisiting memories versus valuing the right now does that make sense, right? And so what we talked about hugo's ready, I should be able to do this and I said, you know what? I get it, but I'm not sure what happened five years ago is relevant to what's going on today, I'm absolutely certain that what was happening twenty five or thirty years ago won't be relevant because all those people that were buying then are on to something else, and the truth is as you get older, you don't go out to his many concerts, you don't go out and do as many of those things, and I said so there's probably some core level of fans that you can still engage with with whether they amount to a tour. I don't know, I said if you were looking to go and put together, I hate to say it, but kind of like when he's old these packages and you see it tour of def leppard going out with night ranger going out with, you know, christ, I can't remember, you know, heart right bands that were huge in their day and then you start pairing them up, and while they hate to hear about it, the heart was what I was saying from seattle, right? That's how you can put enough weight together to go out and put together always to get four thousand people in an amphitheater, and they all split up one hundred fifty grand and it works, but those air acts that stayed touring the whole time, they never went away. So what happens is bands start with nowhere, they go up the top of the mountain, right? And no matter who you are, you start coming down the back side of the mountain. I don't give a crap who you are, right? Somebody asked about the touring, the tories would pays the bills at the back, and if you had enough hits to get to the really the top of the mountain moody blues, khun tour every other year for the rest of their lives, right r e o speedwagon, I see you know they're good friends with their manager haven't had a hit in years, and they were like a b level acted their greatest moment, but they still go onto, but they have to pair up there, so if you were going to try to do that you need to it would probably take more than your other thing, and you'd have to accept the fact that, you know, what happened thirty years ago is a memory, whether that would drive them today it is debatable, you know, I've seen the cases were artist that have some stature and have some history will find some young band, this is the best way to do it that loves what you're doing so of dave groll is a big actually the best example who wasn't the drag sly stone out of this van, right? The sly stone who was the biggest one of the biggest pop r and b guys he transcended and black kids, white kids, everybody was coming to see sly and the family stone, right developed huge cocaine problem classic, you know, went from the house in bel air. It is like he lives in a van now, right? And so they had people try to bring him back, people that loved his stuff, right? And it never really worked. They couldn't capture the moment that it always born, so I'm not saying it's impossible. I don't know that there are people out. They're necessarily that do it the people that pay or these casinos and stuff has been the greatest boon for the industry because casinos just want to have people show up to drink and gamble so they'll give for the right act will give away the whole door or your bands go club casino. Stephen well, they're playing is three hundred fifty grand for it. Well, I'm in ok? We could play, you know, six thousand seated for one hundred grand or we can play, you know, the walkman hooky, you know, casino, I'm here for three fifty, I'll take it right and lots of bands and doing it big bands are going out and playing these casinos a punch in the california, you know, and also and you'll be driving to palm springs and you'll see, you know, soundgarden it the you know what, the whatever could see, you know? All right, yeah. Okay, you're really opening up here, I gotta say, okay, so you had mentioned that, you know, if a manager if you're paying a manager, run away on and there's definitely some horror stories about managers out there, what are some things to look for? And some red flags? If you have a manager approach you the first red flag is you gotta pay me a salary because if it was me I said no no no no no no no did your job is to go out and get given my speech here I talked to this manager friend of mine steve ranney he said then no riel manager gets a salary and if he says well that's not true here you give my phone number or invite him on my web show we'll get him on scott hey hey, I want to get a few minutes here doc mcgee you're gonna salary no hey, herbie you so you know it get it, get a salary? No. So the three big man is drunk in sally but you such a genius that this person is going to pay you okay? All right, so if I pay how much money you bring him in right in the conversation will end right there there's all kind of saying this and I want to say this all the folk same thing with agents ok there's all kinds of internet predators out there okay, what happens? His artists are so desperate to take their music somewhere right that they checked their head at the door right? They do stupid stuff. You just saw that video we played in their flow and any at lunch okay? It was a horror story it's true people go on google flow and eddie manager on google watched that video it's all true so the red flags if they ask you to pay them, they're not a manager, but here's the next if I ask everybody somebody says I'm in the music business, okay? We're living in the google world, google their ass, see what they've done. I've got big connections at record labels now you guys don't know me, but if I said I got big connections and record labels, would you believe me? And why would you believe that? What the guy's been in business? I've gone online, I start looking at all these people he's got let's know somebody's got dark, then bang, bang, bang bang, right? So you can find stuff out about anybody, okay, so if they don't have a demonstrably track record or they start stuttering when you asked him who have you worked with, right? Because when you don't want is somebody that's auditioning and practicing that that's not to say that you know every big manager has to be there because there's some great young managers nicky burger manager, group love, but I'll tell you somebody, nicky burger, nicky burger knows how to say I don't know, but I'm going to find out okay, the quality one for a manage the most important qualities is deep connections within the industry, well respected in the industry, a demonstrably track record of success that's your perfect manager okay, so the managers that you want are the ones that come in so I freaking love what you're doing that I really believe I'd like to take you on that's like a shot in the dark more likely you're going to go out and make something happen and you're going to attract attention that manager and the manager or somebody will be calling your gun hey run you should come and check this band incubus out here and then these guys were really freaking good you know? And because it's trusted you go and check in on you these guys are really good and you call up your boss because I didn't I was born if I've had a gun I had a bullet but it was rubber bullets you know I needed to call the big chief at all the bullets hit could kill ok ok so lost hands me the gun back should grant right? So you know those I want you to go watch that manager I did a whole thing. I'm managing ren manu plays your manager talk about in great detail what to look for the qualities, the characteristics you know what they do on a day to day basis, how they get paid, how contracts are worked out, you know how you get into a management contract, how you get out of a management contract um counseled by years of experience as a manager not a professor not a teacher not some internet poser I'm a manager at the end of the day if they want my tombstone it's going to say manager ok brad for on this kind of ties in the year trusted referrals about artists and whatnot on at the studio were always very fortunate to have a lot of repeat clients and referral clients I'm curious when you're managing a band how you choose the producer for projects or the studio how does that how do you steer that it's a great question um it's funny I was just having this conversation about referral business and I think it's different depending on the genre little bit my first thing is that people are coming back to you right when they have other options out there there can only be one reason for that is because you made them feel good about coming back so I've spent some time with both of you right? If I'm doing a deal with your lovely wife she's personal she's smart she's in control and I bet you spend some time make unsure and I don't say this in that way but mothering and making sure you guys all good yeah, I get you anything to do that so my friend kate lemons you say you give service so you come you they come back to you right so you know that's that's a good sign when it comes to producers it's a little bit more personal thing but brendan o'brien a good friend of mine we were talking about how much repeat business he's got from pearl jam over and over and over again, right? But there's also a dynamic in the business that once somebody's come to you a million times they feel like they need to separate after what? Because they're just like they need to have a different sounding board and sometimes that makes sense right? Because band dynamics you haven't some issues here and there's a comfort zone there that work it isn't about comfort it's about sparking that creative thing here so you need to change you need to change out the pitcher something sometimes in a baseball game the manager comes out and takes the starting pitcher I got to get you out here right now this guy this one battered kills units you know I'm getting out of here right? You see it all the time it's the same thing there so it happens maurine the rock side of things and it does in the pop because the pop thing and again I'm no expert on pop but I spent enough time with some of my young in our bodies that are that's much more of them matchmaking exercise today on a song basis this producer this writer for this song write this song this beat this guy that's on that's why these pop records cost so much more to make than a rock record because they have to pay all these guys and then all this stuff in between so success either personal or financial is a great starting point for let's do it again ok, there are some producers out and I won't mention his name but a guy that I got friendly with early in my career who was an unbelievable producer I've had some unbelievable success had grammy award winning, but he was freaking torture, right? He got the best out of people, but it left a lot of blood on the tracks, right and again, when we talk about artist here a little bit differently, they won't go back just because it worked because that that's too easy where, as you know, the football concert, there was a football coach vince lombardi who's who all his players hated him in the moment because he would drive him so hard right? And he was so relentless, you know, but when it came crunch time and they had the lineup for the wind in that great game in the freezing weather and everything they delivered because playing that game was easier than listening to vince right and when the game was over they raised him on their things that they thought, god, I hate him it was all about winning, and in that moment of the wind, they sit there and thought, ok, god, he's, a rough ride. But, man, when I had to line up for the money I owe, I could think of is this will be easier than listening events, bone. They blow him out, right? And so that dynamic of pushing people, which is part of the producer's job getting the best. Adam, um, um, can cost, you know, even as a manager doing the right thing, pushing for the right thing, even when it works out, leave some blood on the tracks, leaves some rubber on the road, and, uh, nobody has an unlimited supply of rubber blood in that analogy. Right? So you, you do the best you can, why you're in the game.