Business and Marketing
There's always for four hundred million things I want to talk about ways to go to this we gotta go to that so let's get into business let's talk about numbers let's talk about your business and marketing and I want to try that I want a jasmine wherever you are jasmine star dear, I would try to talk like you really fast, so can I just say, can I just say that that jasmine just posted a picture of her and her dog polo watching you? So so I got to get on jasmine speed right now and talking like to get through all I want to get talking through this I'm afraid celeste is going to pull the internet court on me. I'm going to use every second I possibly can so here's the deal, you have to build a business and you're starting from scratch, all right? And you've got to figure out a what you're doing right at least start out with some idea I want to shoot portrait's and whoever hires me for portrait's I will shoot that I want to see weddings. All right, you say I want to weddings and I want to sh...
oot portrait ce those kind of things go together, you know, weddings and portrait on those two pretty easy to go together then, but if you say I want to shoot uh, weddings and corporate photography those two things like don't really go together those are two different worlds to live in and you're either a wedding photographer, your corporate photographer and if you're walking straight out of the gate saying I'm trying to run two races you can't do it think of the genre's in these different areas of the business as a racist and if you're just jumping out of the gate you just you just need to reward on one race at a time, right? And if you're dealing with weddings and family portraiture, you're dealing with families who you know families get married and and people who get married have families and like not all kind of goes together kind of thing right? So when I got out of the gate kinko's now I had my technical behind me I knew my reciprocal zain knew my shutter speeds my app but there's a new flash powers I knew howto like run my camera um new stuff like that but I was really rusty I I felt like I had to learn how to shoot again because I hadn't shot for like two years I was totally out of practice shooting and dealing with people um so out of the gate my motto was I'll shoot anything but point all right and anything I would trolled craig's list I would go shoot pictures of houses for twenty five dollars all right now my when I quit my job, note that I wasn't vice president of a bank note that I quit a job. I didn't need a master's degree to get there's some people I know, like I want to quit my job. But there, fifteen years into the company, they have a four oh, one k, they have two car payments, they have two mortgages, they got a boat payment they've got, like, like everything under the sun in debt. I was like, living in the crappy apartment, driving a beat up car. Um, and I had a eight ten dollars an hour job that at that point in the economy, that if it all fell to pieces and sixty days I could go back and get again, or I could find some other eight, ten dollars an hour job. So I wasn't leaving a career. I was just leaving old job and my expenses were low. So when I got started out of the gate again like no cable, no daily lot, is it starbucks or whatever, like eating? Just no eating out? Um, my son was in the least expensive day care could find which sucked is basically one of those daycares were like, children don't burn the building down, okay, and then do whatever else you want, right? It's not where I didn't want to live in that apartment I didn't want to drive that car I didn't want my kid in that day care but that's where I was in my life so I have to get out of that right and as I go out today, the on ly person in charge of paying me now is myself so if I need twenty five bucks then I take this job off craigslist go shoot a couple pictures, email them to the person and get twenty five bucks and that twenty five bucks is a half tank of gas uh that twenty five bucks and some cheerios its milk right? And then someone wants to come along and tell me like, listen, you're ruining the industry for us I've worked very hard to become a photographer and you twenty five dollars fifty dollars photographers burn and turn photographers are killing it for me like do it I'm sorry, I understand I'm probably shooting cheap I got kids to feed unless you want to feed my children for me and I need that twenty five bucks today guess what, pal, I'm shooting that job twenty five bucks I know that sucks for you, but they're not going to pay you five hundred dollars for that job this person is paying twenty five dollars doesn't have five hundred dollars for that job, so I will feed that market am I going to get a nice house know, am I going to get a new car payment? Absolutely not can't afford him. I'm going to go to starbucks every day and get a three dollars drink. No, we're gonna have cable. No, I'm not. I'm not gonna have this stuff, so we keep my expenses low expenses low. All right. Can I see the job for twenty five dollars now? No, no, I cannot I cannot shoot a job for twenty five dollars. Um, cheri, cheri, you still hear? Did share leave. Sherri is my business manager. He's been running around in the background, she's helping out with hawk to bali on her way to help with hot um, she'll let you know right away I can't shoot twenty five dollars my day right now. So I did stuff for twenty five bucks seven and a half years ago. My day right now starts in about twenty five hundred, but my expenses or not with this wass I had one child, then I have four now to take care of right my expenses. I didn't have a studio, I now have a studio. I didn't have a studio manager, I now have a studio manager, I didn't have a business manager, I now have a business manager can I walk out the door for twenty five dollars? No, I cannot I have to be a twenty, five hundred or more simply to cover my expenses because my expenses are so high. Am I as a twenty, five hundred dollars photographer staying awake at night worrying about a twenty five dollars photographer? No twenty five dollars photographers they're not taking jobs from me if someone's got twenty five hundred dollars spent on a job they don't want a twenty five dollars photographer if you've got five hundred bucks to go spin on a great meal are you going to mcdonald's? No, I mean I'm like then that I'd have like four hundred ninety seven dollars left over right to go buy a new soft box no, but like I've got to take my wife out on the town tonight I want to go to a nice restaurant I I want to sit down I want to have a steak and just know that that's takes gonna be awesome I'm not going to mcdonald's is mcdonald's shutting down every nice restaurant in town? No, no, they're not there's a place for mcdonald's there's a place for nice restaurants and there's a lot of like in between restaurants that we all kind of service and it's in the in between grounds that we're all fighting over each other it's the twenty five hundred dollars photographer versus the thousand dollar photographer they you know, could be fighting against each other, but it's not twenty five hundred twenty five dollars in the middle ground against really messy and ugly and dirty at the high end of things. Not so much, and I'm not even at the high end of things. I'm not even there yet. There are photographers out in the world that you add another zero to that and they're they're not worried about me. I'm shipping jobs twenty, five hundred dollars issued in for twenty five thousand dollars. Dan and I now have a new joke as, yeah, the jobs we're working on right now, the ones that annie liebowitz cz not taking because every job I work on are the ones that any liebowitz is not taking right. Um, so you're just getting started, you need to build a portfolio, you need to have a set of pictures to put out into the world to populate a website and you need to get out there and find clients who will hire you, right? Number one you walk out of the gate, you say what I'm going to do. So I walked out of the gate and I got really busy shooting family portrait's, thanks to a connection that my sister in law had in this group called mops, horrible name, great organization, mothers of preschoolers and I did a little guest speaking engagement at her mops group and I gave away a cut like a couple family portrait sessions and just booked a whole bunch of family portrait's out of that and then a friend of mine invited me to his concert he said can you take some pictures at a show I can't pay you any money but I can get in for free and bias beer yes sir all right all right so I shot this picture one night that um made me stop and go who? Music photography so I'm kind of shooting anything, anything, anything, anything that I can get off craigslist anything that I'm meeting people hams akram a photographer just straight right out to get ham zach I'm a photographer what do you do? I just want to know what you do and I want you to know what I do I'm standing in line at a coffee shop I'm stand in line at mcdonald's I'm other cool shoes I like that she's due where'd you get those such such so in place also hey, I'm zach I'm a photographer seriously I got kids to feed I got a family to take care of I just gave up my speeches I have lost this before I'm not losing it again if this doesn't happen now it ain't ever gonna happen for me ever I have to make it so I start shooting family portrait's and I'm like I'm talking hundred fifty dollars turn and burn portrait ce got the park hundred fifty bucks next day or you know three days later hey huddy um I'm delivering a cd of pictures here you go here you go here's the pictures here's your stuff all right then I shoot this band and I go music photography what's that all about and I start researching that alright then not after long after those pictures hit my space this girl named meghan coffee called me said I need press kit photos what's press kit photo well it's you know I put out press kids cd and I didn't like all of those eight by ten glossy pictures that are likely up on the hallway near the bathrooms and bars yeah okay I know what those are yeah I need one of those how much would you charge and honestly got it when she called me and asked me I put her on hold hold on a second and I pulled up some of my bills I added them up I had about three hundred forty seven dollars where the bills do and I got back on the phone with her and I said three hundred fifty bucks on I I can do it this week and she hired me so and this is so funny is she's making coffee is now my wife like my first oh my god! You you you you'd be a good woman who may one day later huh that's for later I need to talk more about business right now I see new castles in the back I see my wife and I seen your castles and I mean there's a portrait all right so so all right, so I decided all right I'm doing family portrait so I'm really like this music photography thing I'm gonna build I built a website for family portrait I built a website for music photography and I said which ever grows feet first and the like soon I'm gonna drop the other I can't run two races going after families and going after musicians you can't go after both so I'm going to start these two things put him out to the world for like I'm talking sixty days and whatever is kind of like doing whatever I'm gonna drop the other and go with one because I've had photographers all my life tell me zack if you could ever be known as the guy that does that thing you will be successful otherwise you're just a generalist picking up all the rest of the job that you can get so I said I'm going to do that so music photography grew feet first I enjoyed it more I started getting uh you know, work in it and bands started, you know, calling me up um and I dropped family portrait ce now I still got calls for family portrait's from referrals from the other family portrait cy shot and I shot those hey we saw what he did with smith family could you take pictures of us absolutely here we go but that websites gone and the only way you can hire me for family portrait is like if you knew that I shot family portrait because now I'm zeroed in on music photography now that here's my big business plan I am going to get local musicians to pay my rent how brilliant is that right how many of you that you know a bunch of local musicians how many of you have money none of them how many of you know broke local musicians right? Every local musician is broke how many of you know broke photographers right but how many of you know broke photographers that have five six, seven thousand dollars with the gear hanging off their body do do do you feel the wind from all the hands look I gotta say eighty five one point two just came from being a j I'll check it out you have any food right? I'm hungry I haven't eaten in three days but I got a two thousand dollars linds so research, research, research, research research so I start going to clubs and I the beauty of when you know the the the client that you're going after you can find out where they are and your job is not to get on google search engine optimization s ceo is stupid it's just stupid all right you're just getting started nobody knows about you there's four hundred billion photographers out there on the internet everyone's a freakin photographer and don't listen to anyone who says I can get you on the top ten page because he's telling one hundred people that you can't get one hundred people on the top ten like how you going to fit all these people you're telling top ten you can your job is to get out into your city into your area into your environment in your place and let people know what you do I am zach I am a photographer and then I'm a music photographer so I'm hanging out a meeting bands I goto you know local show and I'm watching the band play and I go to the guitarist after the show and I got do that's a gorgeous guitar what is that? Let me tell you about it it's a nineteen seventy four special edition les paul blah blah blah blah blah was such in such pickups did it did it did it did and I had another friend board bubble over oh cool I get on ebay I get on blind oh my gosh he's got a four thousand dollars guitar he's playing he hasn't eaten for a week but he's playing a four thousand dollars guitar and I've met drummers putting five thousand dollars drunk it in a five hundred dollars cars wow that's a cool and what is that oh it's such a such so and so son such that's nineteen sixty nine marshall blah blah blah blah he's got like three four grand worth of stuff over there with a three thousand dollars guitar into it and he's one of these things he's constantly doing appear stop pedals effects pedals their hundred bucks of peace he's got twelve of them he's got twelve hundred dollarsworth of stop pedals in front of him hey, thanks come to our show by our cds we got t shirts we've got stickers come sees that the merch table t shirts research about fifteen hundred dollars with a t shirt sitting back there in boxes they got two thousand dollars with the cds recorded at sonika studios high sonika studios uh I am a for peace man looking to do a five song ep e what's that look like pricewise oh that's five grand with our junior engineers two thousand dollars to print the thing five thousand dollars to record it sixteen hundred dollars with t shirts ten thousand dollars with music equipment and I've sat in the back of a club me the bartender somebody in the band's girlfriend and band that's everybody and they're up there rocking it out and I'm doing my calculations and they have forty, fifty thousand dollars worth of equipment on stage oh, they're broke. They have no money. Well, what are they getting? Forty, fifty thousand dollars with stuff from I'm broke. I have no money. You have a twelve hundred dollars camera body hanging around your neck. You got a three thousand dollars with lindsay's over in that bag? You're throwing him into a two thousand dollars laptop you have a car you're eating, you have money and louise people spend money on what we value right? They value the guitars, they value their cds, they value their t shirts, they value their stickers, they value all the stuff they value their amps, they value their stop box, says they value at all and they will work their tails off and work three jobs and cut lawns and do whatever to pay for their music. And then all I got to do is come in and say, I'll do your press kit photos for two hundred fifty bucks right? Two hundred fifty bucks to a four thousand dollars guitar. What is that? Nothing that's. Nothing. But what I had was art school girlfriends right to take these real cool artistic shots you in the graveyard and train tracks and brick walls and everyone was available light on camera flash shooting bands in my town when I got started I said, all right, I want to shoot for rolling stone one day so I'm gonna shoot local band as though I'm on assignment for a photo editor rolling stone and I'm going tio put that level of photography but this level of band and I want this level of band to feel as though they just made it to the cover of rolling stone I want them to look at their picture go am that's cool and no joke I cannot tell you how many times this just not story I get a phone call hey my name's soon so I'm in a band that it that it out we're talking yes how's it going baba block listen you just shot so and so band yeah all their good dudes yeah yeah they're buddies of mine and look I just saw the pictures you shot at them and I know they're not that cool I tell you I have heard some of them I know they're not that cool and neither weak but can you can you can you make us look that cool? Oh do you mean under expose the sky by stop make it nice and blue input a sixty inch umbrella on you yes I can can I do that at two o'clock in the afternoon? No, I'll see you at seven o'clock tomorrow night on a rooftop somewhere right so I built up my business now what helped me build up my business was I kept my expenses low all right, that allowed me to take jobs at a lower price point because honestly, like the bands that I was going after, they didn't have twenty five hundred dollars for a sheet ok that's just ok out of if I walked up to you and I said, dude, thie coolest camera out there right now is a you know phase one I q one eighty it's going to cost you thirty thousand dollars you need to get this camera are you even going to think about that camera thirty thousand dollar? Is that even possible? Right? I'm not thinking about a thirty thousand that's as silly okay three thousand dollars camera that's going to take me some time but I can kind of build up to it three hundred dollars camera yeah, I can get three hundred dollars camera there are times that you get a three hundred dollars camera then you build up to a three thousand dollars camera and then one day one day one day I might be able to walk in the room and say I got this digital back cost me thirty thousand dollars but here's the clients I have lined up, I'm shoot with it and you think I'm doing twenty five dollars jobs with thirty thousand dollars camera no, no, I'm not doing twenty five thousand dollars jobs with thirty thousand dollars camera do I say I want to be a photographer and step into twenty five thousand dollars day jobs absolutely not. You start here, you start low, you move up right and it's in the middle land that you're fighting everybody else in your goal is to get beyond that now. Pricing, pricing, pricing, pricing howto price myself how does price myself? All right, I figured out when I got started that minimum I needed twenty five hundred dollars a month to pay my writ, my cell phone, my electricity, groceries, gasoline, car insurance. All right, on by was there's no health insurance and life insurance and, like that's, all like luxury items at that point, like, I'm not even going to try for that. I just need to survive and what I found out was to live. I needed twenty five hundred dollars per month tow live to make it that's what I have to do so what you need to do is the cost of doing business. All right, my business manager sherry has a blogger called the business lin's dot com. All right, the business linds dot com and there's, a link off of her blawg that has a cost of doing business calculator and it's, a very simple no frills you put in your rent your food, your insurance, how much per year do you think you'll spend on equipment? Uh, rentals repairs and if you don't know all those numbers yet just sort of leaving but make put in every number that you have to breathe and live every month you put in your cell phone bill put in your electric bill put in how many boxes of cheerios you eat uh, you know, a month every single dime you have to make in a month stick it in there in that calculator so I came up with twenty five hundred dollars a month minimum. This is just living this is just surviving then you have to think about how many jobs could I actually do per month, right? If I'm doing twenty five dollars jobs, that means I have to do one hundred of them in thirty days I have to do one hundred jobs in thirty days, whether that's three jobs a day every day seven days a week you think that's gonna happen? No, I don't have the time there's not enough minutes in the day. I couldn't do that in seven days a week, thirty days a month, every month forever and ever never I can't do that, so I decided ten I get ten jobs of some of some sort and those ten jobs have to pay me a minimum of two hundred and fifty dollars, minimum this is pretty simple math all right and you know, a lot of people are talking, asking about licensing, um and contracts and things like that, I'll try to get some of that, but but at the nine out of ten questions are, how do I start my pricing? How do I get started and that's where I want to get to? All right, so two hundred fifty bucks, when somebody calls me how much do you have much for a photo shoot? Two hundred fifty dollars? Oh, I don't know that's kind of high. You have no idea, dude, I'm living on rice and beans and like dirt right now at two hundred fifty bucks, if you know for a fact, you've got to get ten bands in the door every month, two hundred fifty bucks apiece and they started about price. You stick to your guns. Why? Because you did your numbers and not only you're my first one of the month, I got to get nine more of you to come in the door and I'm just living. And if only eight of you come in the door, I haven't made enough money for the month, and when I quit my job, I have no paycheck coming in to cover this how much of a fire do you think is under my backside to get out there and find clients? Huge huge fire that some of you have day jobs all right? You have day jobs and you're trying to do photography on the side and you're kind of plugging in the income you make from your day job into the amount of money you make per month. Um, shooting photography so if I had a day job bringing in two thousand dollars a month let's just say then I only had to go make five hundred bucks to make up my other side, and so I might go shoot a wedding five hundred dollars and piss off every wedding photographer in the whole world, right? I can't really I got a forty hour week job, I can't really go out and market my wedding services a whole lot if I'm working forty hours a week, somebody else so a lot of people ask me, you know, how do I know I have this day job that I want to quit and I want to leave my day job? Um how do I how do I window? I know why quit, and the easiest answer is that is when you have a day job and you have a photography business and you've built your photography business up to the point that your day job is suffering for it and that you're at your day job and your photography is suffering for it you have so many weddings on the books, you can't get the editing done because you have a day job, but you're so tired at your day job you're going in, people ate every day at work because you're staying up all night editing weddings and the income levels are starting to fluctuate, and you get to a point of stress in your life toe where one or the other is about to fall. You're either about to get fired from your day job because you're up all night working on weddings, right, or all of your wedding clients or so pissed off at you because you can't deliver the pictures because you have a day job to deal with, and that is when you make a decision. Typically you make a decision on one of these has got a gift, and when you say I'm leaving my day job, I'm stepping out into photography that is an act of faith that is an act of that is a scary thing to do, but when you know your numbers, when you know how much it costs you to live and someone says how much for a wedding I can on ly due to weddings a month, max, right? So I'm it what? Uh, twelve hundred fifty dollars a wedding and that's just you like at two hundred fifty dollars a wedding, right? At two hundred fifty dollars a wedding, you better not even be delivering any receivables from that let's say and that includes proof prints. Well, then that might be two hundred dollars worth of prince that you have now you've made one thousand fifty and you did two weddings like that you've just lost four hundred dollars you're now at twenty one hundred dollars for the month you gotta go find four hundred four dollars because it's cost you two hundred bucks just to deliver proofs. So your wedding prices and even twelve fifty it's just saying we're dating fifteen hundred and I might make a hole fifty dollars profit this month and we're not even talking profit yet you is a photographer you want to make a profit, right? You want to make a profit when you like taking vacation? That means you're gonna take two weeks off, right? Um you want to go to your kid's games there? Um you don't want to work fifty weekends out of the year. I asked you what you like shoot ten weddings a year love it let's say it cost you fifty thousand dollars a year to live basic and you are only going to shoot ten weddings a year you have to make five grand a wedding and you haven't even turned a profit you haven't gotten health insurance, none of that when you are just starting as a photographer you have to understand this cost of what it costs for you to live and I'd almost even say don't count your day job check act as though you're trying to make a much money with your camera and don't include your day job check because when the time comes you want to leave that day job your photography business prices have to be there to catch it and if you've been living on your day job check data take data job check and you're just doing five hundred dollar weddings and you know I'm ready to step out I'm so busy with five hundred dollar weddings and you step out oh wait I didn't run my numbers right I'm busy with five hundred dollar weddings and it five hundred dollars I'm not making enough money because my day job check his guard so if you have a day job still treat your business as though you didn't all right your business is going to pay for your gear not your day job paying for your year if you want to do this full time because that will help you build your business up to the point so when the day job check disappears your business is at least minimum covering you now um you want to turn a profit so if I shot ten bands at two fifty as twenty five hundred dollars right twenty, five hundred bucks if I could shoot twenty bands at two fifty that's five thousand I'm making more money for the month, but I just doubled my work instead of ten bands I'm shooting twenty bands I have thirty days to get it done before the landward comes calling again and I just doubled my my, uh work loved instead of maybe doubling my price and here's, what happens? And this is not you being greedy and being a corporate bastard or whatever, but by the time you get your pricing to a level of takes care of your business pays your taxes always always f ing pay your taxes, pays your taxes, pays for your rent, pays for your children, pays for your spouse or whatever um and and allows you to have a little extra money left over each month you will be priced at a point you yourself can't afford. I can't afford me as a photographer because what's built into my pricing well, my cost of doing business is built into my pricing and then my taxes air built into my pricing and this and that and the other an overhead and studio rent in all of that is built in, so what I actually get to keep of my pricing is is this right? I can't afford myself and I'm not like a corporate like money grubbing sucking photographer I'm running a business, I'm staying profitable so the clients who hire me are people who can afford me and that doesn't mean it's not my friends and it's not my family my family can't afford me my friends can't afford me I have a different level of client who has the money who could afford me and when you yourself are the asking for more money than you yourself could pay for that's hard I'm asking for this person for twenty five hundred dollars there's no way in the world I paid twenty five hundred dollars for I couldn't pay that but when you know your numbers and know your numbers and know your numbers it's kind of easy to ask for twenty five hundred dollars okay all right oh the sooner I get to this the sooner I get to have a beer all it's like a little carrot out front all right? So warrant all right? You got to know your numbers. The thing I found the hardest part about it getting a ten thousand dollars job is asking for ten thousand dollars. I have a hard time doing that in my brain. I'm still a two hundred fifty dollars photographer in my brain now I have a business manager sherry in the phone rings says yes x twenty five hundred dollars well, she makes percentage of that and more sheikhoun book more she makes a sheet and she's separated from so she can just say it right um I had another manager michael women just an awesome awesome dude who's helped me out so much and taught me so much about the music industry and stuff I had these packages, so to speak. Um I was two hundred fifty dollars for a quarter day I was five hundred bucks for a half day and I was a thousand dollars for a full day for a band. Now these are, like, really hard core numbers and I don't you know, this is what worked for me, is it? What big photo organizations would tell you how to run your business? Absolutely not like, but it worked for me and he got me started, right? It got me started. Is this how I run my business today? No, I don't, but it got me started and this is what we're talking about getting started, you've got to start somewhere, so just get out there and start somewhere. So, uh, michael women came in, took over my booking and he pushed this the three, fifty, six hundred, and I think it was eleven hundred right away and you got twenty percent off the top and I'm like a wu because I was booking a heck of a bunch of two hundred fifty I was doing about twelve bands a month at two fifty, so I'd hit my ten goal and was getting a few extra making a little bit of profit, not much, so he takes me to three fifty and my phone doesn't stop ringing. I'm still going along and something we're going to say. Well, once you're the chief photographer, you're always the chief photographer. No, you're not. Hey, I'm zach how's it going, man, thanks so much for booking me today. S o u r shoot. Today is one hundred bucks. Um, you know, I'm glad I'm just getting my business started and and we're going to rock the shootout for you. I got like three or four locations picked out. So let's, uh, let's, go get ahead and get going. You guys got one hundred bucks, right? Yeah. We got two hundred bucks. Great. Let's, get going now, as we're working through the shoot, I'm talking to you. What do your dreams and your goals? Well, we want to go here with our music, here's where I want to go with my photography and, you know, I'm one hundred bucks now and you guys were playing ten high on wednesday now. In the next couple of months, I want to be two hundred fifty bucks that's where I need to be and beyond that. And so I let people know if you're getting me at a cheap price, my goal is to get to this price. So when you refer, tell your friends about me at the end of our shoots, our shoots done, tell your friends about me I'm a hundred bucks for, like, this month on my prices, my price have got to get up like, did I'm eating dirt right now at a hundred bucks? But tell your friends about me next month and two hundred o so whatever referral comes in a yeah, book him now next month is two hundred bucks it's all how you handle your business, it's all how you relate to their clients. All right, um so then within about sixty days, women took me two, four, fifty uh eight fifty and I think it was, uh, fourteen hundred all right? And I was like, oh, boy, here it goes, I'm getting scared. I'm at four hundred fifty bucks to hire me now what I was doing for two fifty and I was to fifty by myself for a long time and he gets me within like ninety days of taking over my bookings he's that got me a four, fifty eight fifty and fourteen hundred and you know I never I never booked the's like it wants in a blue moon because I'm a horrible salesman of myself some of you may be such horrible salesman you've got to find somebody who's going to sell for you it might be your spouse it might be a friend of yours you might know someone who's out of work but they're good talker and a good sales person put him to work selling your photography business well I don't know anything about it we men didn't know anything about photography but he understood the music business and he understood how to sell and he had no problem asking for fifty so for about thirty days my price jumped pretty good thirty days I got kind of slow a little slow and then I got right back up to my same level as you up your prices you expect your phone to stop ringing for a bit but continue pushing out there continue network and given ten you getting your name out there and it pops back up all right now we've been calls me and he's like hey, I booked another band for you it's half day next tuesday blob blob of law and I'm looking at my calendar one day my okay and I'm trying to typing in my calendar half day on tuesday and I'm looking at the month and for that entire month I've done nothing but half day and full day shoots and I was so busy with him I didn't even pay attention and I'm did women holy crap did like ok you're kicking ass because I'm looking at the left for the last month I haven't shot anything beyond a half or full day like I haven't shot a quarter day and like a month and he goes you know why like why because a month ago I stopped offering it I've about had a heart attack I nearly went through that phone to kill him because the four hundred fifty dollars package my package here that I used to do for two fifty and I was busy doing this was my bread and butter package bread and butter bread and butter it's my four hundred fifty it's my little little package the bread and butter he just stopped offering it and I was still busy but now I'm busy scheuten seven eight bands a month at eight hundred fifty two fourteen hundred dollars band and some of these air off referrals of stuff I was doing back over here at the very very beginning for honor box but I built up to a studio I I was I was established in atlanta and he took four hundred fifty bucks and just took it off the table I myself would never have done and I myself may have never gotten myself to four fifty some of your great sells people and you could look at your numbers and go yeah I needed to make more money I had a hard time doing that I've had to learn now can I do it? Yes now after years of experience and being you know, figuring out pricing and doing my cost of doing business and having really talented people like medical women and sheree ennis in my life and reading lots of blog's on the subject you want to talk about blog's on the subject read a photo editor dot com um uh read his blogged and go through the archives because there's tons of contracts there's talks about licensing there's talk was about you know, contracts and pricing and licensing your work there's a lot of great discussion on that blood um that I would just be pushing out. So make uh grab a chair, grab a beer come on up here with me. While we're kind of setting up here to finish things off with meghan I to talk about the balance of this let's take some questions right now. Questions act yes, there's no questions. There are no questions. Just kidding thing. There's questions. Okay, first question is from super d'leh set up super diva um the question is, if you couldn't afford yourself, how do you feel about hanging out with people who can that's my discomfort if I'm trying to make people who are more wealthy than I and feel good and comfortable, I feel like I'm cow towing and not and I'm not comfortable you get over it I mean they're just people and uh jeff and julia woods oh my gosh uh meghan, I've been up tio their place in washington, illinois tiny town there have been people on the block uh, who hit me on this and, uh, no questions have been coming up well, I live in a small town I can't make a lot of money crap jeff and julia would started in a single wide trailer thirteen years ago or something like that. Um and they have a gorgeous business now they have a fantastic business look them up, they have business workshops like you should go to and they will look at your business and tear you a new one and build you back up businesswise numbers wise, they're fantastic in business and they live in a small town and don't get into the link o the social stratus look, I've got to go find clients who could afford my services because I need at the end of the day pay my bills, turn a profit, we'd like to take a vacation when her car breaks down or my car breaks down, I want to fix it I don't want to be a thirty eight year old man going to my mom asking for money to fix a car. I don't want you to be that either. No, she wants to look to me and say, zack, I need new tires and I need to go to the store and get tires, but that isn't like I'm just taking care of daily business, right? We were not appear is wealthy people who drive mercedes and you know and have the finest of things. Um but we feed our children. We got to buy a house this year. I'm a first time home buyer I never thought that would happen, and that goes back to pay your taxes like because you want tio eventually go get alone. You have to show tax work and about taxes and about like business it's licenses and stuff like that. I don't know. Hire an accountant, goto an accountant, find an accountant you trust and and tell them this is what I'm trying to do. They will help your business if you do not have an accountant. Your screen? Yes, I think the only that chair mr oh that's, more comfy, more questions exact there's been kind of overwhelming vibe in the chat room this weekend about how cool it is that you're so down to earth that way, or talk about money like one hundred fifty bucks is a lot of money for anyone you know that you're just a guy that's doing his job but there's a hundred fifty dollars in front of me and depicted bend over pick it up, right? People appreciate that about you, so I just wanna let you know that. Okay? So yeah, I get so upset with other photographers like your you're killing the industry and all this there's some people out there that just saying that they got just eat and you know what? There are no people that go out work docks and they're called hoppers and hump your stompers pumpers it docks? Yeah, it was they load unload trucks and they go out there and fifty seventy five dollars a night loading trucks or unloading trucks that warehouse stocks and they're busting their tail and I'm here to tell you that no, don't take that job for two hundred dollars, you're worth more than that there's some guy over here trying to put his kid through college at fifty bucks a night just loading trucks and you go take portrait of someone for two hundred dollars how easy is that you and your rich people problems, right? Yeah like, but I tell you what, I can't be a two hundred dollars target for now I can't I don't want to be a two hundred dollars I started there but I lived in the crappy apartment I drove a crappy car my son was in a crappy day care a better day care a better place I watched two of my neighbors get shot one night that kind of apartment complex that's not where I want to raise my family I want to raise my family in a better neighborhood in a better neighborhood that cost more money that cost more money I've got to make more money who's in charge of making money me who's in charge of saying how much I can make me can I afford myself? I cannot can't you want to check in with the audience the in person audience to see if they had any questions and not weaken? Ask another one move forward what point did you get that? What was the signal for you that you needed to get somebody in to start selling for you? But they're topping a couple times it was where I was so busy I couldn't keep up with it I couldn't handle it anymore. Um when I was going through my divorce, my business was booming and from all the stress of everything, I couldn't handle it night this intern eric eric dixon still a dear friend of mine I love eric to death and eric was in photography school in oklahoma and uh hey interned with me for summer went back finished school and ended up working in a bus factory and he's putting bumpers on buses, school buses and I couldn't keep up with the workload anymore and I either had to close my business or figure something out and I called eric and I said I don't know how I'm going to pay for you but I need help right when michael women called me he was working for bm I write his publishing company and he was leaving be um I to start his own agency he was going to rep music producers but he saw all the hard work I had been doing over the two years to that point I was about two years into the music industry he calls me up out of the blue one day says hey, I'm michael women into michael hey I know exactly what you are is like listen um he's like ari gold yeah he's kind of our already gold in a way a little bit um and he could what's great about having a business manager is you can do the whole good cop bad cop um it always puts sherry in the bad cop role but anyways so he calls me up one day and I'm like up to here in bands like I'm up to here in post production of two hundred fifty bucks and if I can start turning a profit get into a better day care in a better see house in a better car I got to shoot more and more and more and more bands in two hundred fifty bucks, and I'm I don't know how to ask for more money, so I'm just I just keep shooting two hundred fifty bucks I don't know what to do, and he calls me he's like, hey, listen, I'm starting a new business and I'm repping producers, but I love the work you're doing and I know you work hard and I've see your work and I look at your prices, do you need help? And when he asked me if I needed help, I just went silent, you're thinking back to it now, I just oh my god, yes, I'm dying in success. Was I successful? I mean, for what? My goals, where I had succeeded my goals, you know, when I was working my tail off, but then when they came on, he wasn't sure how you you weren't sure how you're going to pay for him, and then it it worked. It worked itself out because he had the help, then he was able to be more productive, and then he was able to pay eric, right, and the same thing happened with my workshop. Uh, registrations were out of hand. I was trying to handle it all myself in med came in, looked at a problem in my life, and I was like, I'm thinking this over, and when she took it over it just hand so much better. Mom, you know, but I'd have, like twenty people in a workshop who, two days before the workshop wouldn't know where they're supposed to go. Yeah, because I'm just so busy with all this other things and she's like, you know what? I'm taking this off your plate, it's almost like another one of those fear things that right before that, you were so like, I don't know if I can do this, but I'm just gonna have to take that step and base that here in right? Just keep. When I signed on, when I signed a lease on a studio space, I had to take that, but I didn't get in over my head. It was just it was basically when I got my first studio space, my car was this piece of crap car, and I was just making enough money I could afford a car payment or a studio payment. It was pretty equal car payment or studio payment cars going cost me money, studio's gonna make any money. I'll keep driving my crappy old car and try to keep it alive and I'm going to go to this little studio space in that little studio space grew into the next studio space and then I was able to grow into the next studio space and eighteen months later get a car all right? But I had to put off getting a new car eighteen months, and then I bought a used car thing is is that he never like because I was just your friend at this point you were never doing things based on the fact that, oh, everyone else has this tune I need to get this to or I need these things in order to get started used to student what he was doing in the moment and then from there it's like growing pains or noticing your pants or getting too short, you know, saying like, oh, probably should buy a new pair of pants it's not like I have to have every size of pants until I'm sixty years old, you know, the saying before I can walk outside all right, that did I make any sense? Yeah, ok, wow means you don't want to have every linds, every camera, body, everybody in space, I quit my job, I didn't own a lin's how much do you think I had to hustle had hustle you got everyone's in the world and you got some money and you've got a spouse that pays your bills you gotta huh? So not really you want to be in an black shoot fifty dollars portrait's in the park okay, fine, your husband pays all your bills buys all your camera gear and you're shooting pictures of your friends and family and building build a new website you go get a five thousand dollars website you know I feel sorry for people in that dilemma because they aren't fighting for it. You know what I'm saying? They're scrapping for it when it's kind of just given to you and kind of he's now I'm not saying I know something I say it lightly and wax another mom with a camera. I know some moms with cameras who built successful businesses bust their tails and their husbands are leaving their jobs to work for the moms with cameras because they busted their tails so I'm not putting every and whack in that boat please know that but I know some people it's very easy for them they can just buy whatever they want. I went toe I went to school with someone like that um their husband was very, very successful. Anything they wanted yeah, I mean, it got a mercedes for valentine's day kind of successful it's valentine's day here's a new mercedes red convertible how much did she had a fight for her business how much I gotta fight for mine a lot I'd rather be a fighter I wouldn't mind a mercedes of thousands I want all pick up track yeah that's what I want for valentine's day okay all right. So why am I here? You're here um to talk about it's all well and good go take pictures and run a business and you got to know your numbers and all of that um and I've I've I'm sitting is a creative who's divorced magas creative has been through a divorce um we're two people who found each other and storms and um we're both creative and meg being musician writer me being a photographer um and you walked away from your music before in the name of family and marriage and all of that and I've had to walk away from mine marriage and family and it is crucial to me that if I'm going to have a conversation with you about getting of photography business started um knowing your am pictures and knowing your subject and knowing your lenses and knowing your lights and knowing your cost of doing business and understand you can't afford yourself and how hard you have to work if you're married um if you have kids you have you have a family um that's first yeah and all of this and all of this and all the gear and all the lenses and all the things in the world can get completely in the way of this and I would say we run a successful business and we've been at each other's throats at three o'clock in the morning fighting about something about it so I want to be a successful photographer it's going it's going to be good for me? Yeah, but it's got its challenges too, so I wanted magan I to be here um just talk about that I'm coming from this is I'm sort of the face of the business I have to go out and do the things meg is very much the support of the business she's behind the scenes, one of the big issues that we have is that I head out and teach and do my thing or go shoot jobs and on location with clients and I had it all, man I slipped on a puddle year and so fun and um and she's at home answering e mails dealing with screaming children um all of this people are twittering to meet zack here awesome zach you're great, zach you're awesome on creative live and she's in a holiday inn hotel room with a screaming child rubbing bananas into the carpet and I'm like, honey, I need you to support me and she's like I'm about f ing kill you and this is hard for me this this stuff is hard for me it's hard for me to run a business hard for me to go out and do things but it's hard for magas well right and there are times I just want to be home just won't go home can I just go home? Can I just not be on the road? Can I please go home when you come home and I'll leave right right you see how hard it is you know? So we have those struggles we have those difficulties and what we're always trying to do is find some balance yes like no business in the bedroom like not that well some business all right it's thing yeah. Thanks for a uh celeste can you just turn that upside down? Yeah. Uh, wonder all right, you know me, honey four o'clock and that means five right? That's another thing like how he's gonna take me about two hours could stop them. That means it's something about five right? I get so zone focused into what I'm doing and like I go out on location with a client and like it's a two hour job and I take it the five right because I've got to get the picture I've got there's this elusive picture I'm trying to get I need to get it I need to get it you need to get it and she's I'm three hours late getting home because I'm chasing the picture and when I tell her two hours I needed to be two hours and it's hard to do what I'm chasing that picture um and then you is a creative you're a musician and her talent lies in her music but um you hits your train to me my train was going faster way had hawk and um when we got married she was on tour um and actually our first kind of short honeymoon was here in seattle this unless it's hawkes molecular home and she was on tour she had a new album out she had a publicist she had a manager and she got pregnant and there goes the music and now you're two years in uh not having all done a lot with music you know and it's a struggle and then off here I go doing my thing the end of the day what helps us so much as I'm for my wife I am for her and I work hard for her and I am for her dreams and her desires and it's like that might not happen the day but day and let's figure out how that's gonna happen right now you want to go to school and my first question being the logistics guys I will pay for it right that's not the most romantic thing saying yeah really mad and yeah but because you said something like, well, are you are you going to get a job for that? Right? Because I'm trying to figure out the numbers. I know my numbers like I don't have college in there, like saying there goes our numbers, right? And so I'm just trying to think we're like that, right? He said, yeah, no, I told you didn't mean it like that. I told you, they mean, like, well, if you want to go to college, you get job pay for him. No, I'm just trying to live in it and so, you know, irish and stubborn, like, fine, I will get into high will go to crime rental stock shows a third ship while you were just leaving, you know, because I'm not dramatic or anything. No, not at all. My question to the internet people, do you guys have any questions on how to balance? So I feel like we could sit here and just sort of jibber jabber, right? But is there anything specifically that we can answer? Because the balance part of things, especially for husband and wives who work together, um, and in the same industry, that stuff and I'm not even in your industry, I got sucked into your industry. I love you photographers believe me I hope you know that but sometimes I feel like I don't know half of what you got to talking about I still don't know it like when he's talking about ft what that means um but anyway they plant being that you have to have balance when you're working with somebody because not everyone is married and not you know some people have girlfriends or boyfriends or whatever but our cat or a dog um I guess my thing is I don't I want this last part of this for people to understand that when you lose when you lose a lot you appreciate more that makes any sense and so at the end of the day when he was saying that we're for each other we have to remember that at all times because they're there are moments where I feel like I'm more of your personal assistant that I am your wife but to be quite honest and there are times where I would be completely honest you know I get really not jealous of you but I get jealous of the fact that he's in las vegas you know or he's in denver or he's shooting these pictures and I'm just wondering if there's anyone out there who may be has a wife or a husband who's dealing with that sort of thing of where I'm at home making sure kids getting after school making sure the laundry's done and you know I feel like I'm losing myself sometimes but it's for the greater good but not making any sense like is there anyone any questions at all like that? I mean there's so many questions I'm kind of just what you're saying right now pixie pearls wanted to know how do you balance each other's dreams that's tough because I'm afraid train and I'm going a hundred miles an hour down my track and for meg to change some dreams I've gotta change tracks I've got to slow down I've got to give her space on my rails like I don't know where to take the matter for with that but like like have suddenly she goes to school full time that's going toe greatly affect a my numbers I'm the logistics guy she's the creative toys have this idea and I go how are we going to do it but what's funny is that he says that the heat does he does exact same thing you say that I'm a creative you are just as much as the creative and the thing is we're having to take turns who stands on the ground and holds the kite string that's really what it comes down to you know and just my time on the ground has been a little longer than yours right? Because there are times where you're like I have the donkey already and who put that together for you you yeah right I was a producer for that. I'm not like saying that pat myself on the back, but that was a logistics thing. I think he's going here is this idea, and I come along behind ago, you didn't have to do logistics, right? She tells me when to show up and do the sheets, so so we just trade off on that, right? But like you want to go to school, right? And then you're like time logistics, and we have to like, we're gonna have to change our life, we have to figure out what that looks like and with hawk it being at two years old, you know, like, I don't know, I don't know, I think it's hard for moms, I respect the moms with the camera, you are trying to chase something they're passionate about and they're trying to to capture new the moments with the light in the love of loud, right? But they're trying to do it, and yet they're still raising children and they still have a husband and it's, so I'm not going to try to get off on this, but I just want to say this is I feel like sometimes it's harder for women in the way that it's so difficult because and I'll use the word ministry just to use or add ministry is awaited illustrated but you have these two ministries your mother and your wife and then you're creative and you're an artist and how do you get those two things to balance together? Not even just balancing with your husband but just inside your own self like because you feel so selfish because you love you know for me it's from music it's writing and being by myself and, you know, working on the melody or your if it's one with a camera taking pictures or carolina walking through a city and taking pictures and and yet then on the other hand I have you know hawk who needs all my attention and I have a twelve year old needs help with hallmark in the ten year old's mad because the five year old took his leg goes out of his room and and you feel so selfish for wanting the certain things and I feel selfish for wanting my own thing when I know right now you're so talented at what you do. So to be quite honest, we haven't figured out the balance yet, but like when when I'm not trapped like we had to learn traveling balance I was every other week on the road now I'm every five or six weeks on the road and when I am in town and I am at home, I am home for dinner way have dinner at a at a dining room table every night every night provided I'm not out of town and those out of town trips I take they've got to fall inside of a week they can't go longer when they go longer it's just held on everybody it's hell on me for being away it's hell on meg um a lot of times like way went toe one conference uh jeff and julia woods did in washington that's when we met them and there was a lot of encouragement about pic rolls every single thing who does what part of the laundry who who takes the kids to school who picks the kids up? Um uh I know that I can't stay up too late working because I got to take kids to school in the morning I got to get them up and get them off to school. Um meg will be stuck doing e mails so I'm off to go get kids or whatever um way tradeoff tasks but when I'm home I got to be home and like one of our main things is dinner we also now we do this thing every night best part worst part everyone goes around the table what's been the best part of your day the worst part of your day and it's this just this daily routine that we and all of our screen crazy schedules and lives we just sit down we have a meal together I want to know that they're any women out there understand this because we had this we had this discussion last night over dinner because the beautiful and lovely sherry ennis, our business managers kept talk for us again last night so we could have I could feel like an adult, it was awesome. Anyway, we're talking about, uh, being able to compartmentalize because zach is so supportive of my music he's, you know, helps me buying music, gear and instruments, and I have a whole trailer in our backyard. Her name is loretta and, you know, she's been completely gutted in there inside a sky blue, and I can go in there and write and write music and, you know, it's wonderful, but the problem is, is that I can't compartmentalize like you can where zach gets so singularly focused on something, he just abandon himself to it, I care about laundry, I can't really do anything if I know okay? Oh my god, no thiss this hasn't been done in to return this phone call, I can't go be creative knowing there's all this stuff that needs to be done and he's like, why forget about an idea, forget about it, go get it, go forget about the laundry forget about that email, I'll send a cannon going, oh god I have to go make dinner oh, crap that the potter is a progress it's not defrosting you know that's I can tell you that mel feels exactly like that you know what I want tio day workshop thing and I'm gonna get all the women out there you feel like me we're all gonna go the mountain and hang out for two weeks and eat chocolate and drink wine and just have a manager's jumping time you know, maybe we just want you to know that there's so many women in the chat room they're like amen sister and there's guys in the chapter in their lives that's just a dude thing like everyone is representing both you guys that is it's like it's like god made us to be together and yet couldn't make us more opposite I think he just likes to sit up and having this is fun forget them I tell you I know and I love you yeah yeah I can't do I could not do what I do without her if she was not in my life the stuff I'm doing wouldn't get that couldn't do it and I'm telling you that you can't as a photographer you can only be the lone ranger for so long you really and do you start there you'll start just on your own I got a camera, I got a laptop and I'm trying to get clients but if you're going to have any level of success and by success what I mean what I mean by I'm successful is when the tires go bad on a car I go by set of tires do you know how much joy I get out of buying tires the tires are just bald is co jack all right drive it up to the tires authority to set of tires and I'm not worried about it that is success to me how many times my mom's had to buy me tires in my adult life it's sad my mom don't gotta by being tires no bore right happy mother's day card you no longer have to buy me tires right um I love that mag needs something let me take care of that for you that is success for me it's not that you know we're going on a cruise for one hundred eighty days and I bought her a ten thousand dollars watch and you're getting a mercedes for valentine's no successful for us though honestly is that I love that then if someone a friend of our needs needs the money or if we need to donate something to somebody we can right yeah that's what I and yeah back to business way got we're getting we've got to wrap up um uh celeste I'm not wrapping up till another newcastle's in my hand um we block about block the path blocked path all right um well, while you're going to be or can we just tell you something? Yes, jeremy cowart was actually tweeting out to you and he says, dude, I'll take a punch in the face from you any day of the week two said jeremy garrett says, dude, I'll take a punch in the face from you any day of the week and or a hug gentle embrace a coward I love that guy yeah could go forever now he really could don't know given started when I first met coward I sat down with him we had dinner with him and I told him how jealous I was of him because I've been watching his work I look at his clients and look at the work he creates and just makes me want to hang it up and he flipped it on me said, you know what I've been watching what you do have been watching how you run your business and run your family and I'm really jealous of what you've got going on right now, zack and we're both I'm sitting here feeling jealous of him, he said. They're feeling jealous of me and like do we need to like, how can I help you? And and I'm like, how can you help me and how we're just deeds? You know we just did, but yeah, if you're a struggling artist a struggling photographer and you want to help people in the world how you going to do that if you ain't making no money how many of you would like to go out make a living make a profit and be able to go here's a cause I can get behind here's something I can write a check to I could take a week out of my schedule and go volunteer for these people you can only do that if you know your numbers and then add more to it remember your cost of doing business is you just barely surviving that is not you turning a profit but our children have health insurance meghan I currently we do not have health insurance are health insurance would cost as much as our mortgage payments so that means my day rate has got to get up again right that means my new level of client is a new level of client thank you very much. Um I have to remember that it's just just photography yeah yeah but it's how we also feed our kids and this but I like this stupid camera can get right in between us and stress us out right keep it simple keep it simple right as your success grows it doesn't mean that life's easier I mean you've seen me from kind of the bottom to the top where I am now which isn't the top but it's higher than the bottom I started but it's not that my life's like I've made it because now I'm like ok, I've done this what's next now I'm at the bottom of a new industry me going into advertising the scary I feel like I'm leaving my day job and going to a new one right it's tough it's tough and as soon as you feel your family slipping away from me than out of your hands you get that camera down and you get you get back to your basics it is not worth losing your family for and it will take it away from you quickly it'll take everything from and spouses I think finally last thing spouses um support your man or your woman support him right it's going to be a struggle it's going to be michael it's not going to be easy and they need to know that you're there for them like this weekend or other times when things there I'm stressed out and things are hard for me and mags like why didn't you do this or how come this of baba bottle dot that it ended and I am just sometimes like make I just need you please think please please please god please god please god please god please god just I just need you right now I just need you right now just the fact that you're there just all I need okay, I'm here whatever you need, I've got you and I know she's got me I know she's got me right and spouses you need toe have and support and it's tough and you're gonna watch them flail and you're gonna watch them get frustrated but if they're going to see success it's going to take some time and if you know just be with him and those of you who are the artist in the slow down and hang out with your spouse like when she gets home she gets spa day like wherever the hell she wants to go for spa day aside from like tokyo may be but I'm gonna fiji right like like meg has been in a holiday inn for three days ain't nobody twitter and twitter sending twitter loved her meghan areas no no but but she's been stuck in a hotel with a screaming baby right? So she she gets like spa day she gets whatever like when she gets up on going for like a month anyway, I just I'm worried about I'm worried about questions I want to know I want to make sure people are celeste's question is when are we going to shut up? Yeah there's really no question it's okay conversation from like the we'll wrap has that work for you guys angle you know through these guys feel the same way just like well, you know, jammy for the next maybe half hour your wife can be here in the replay for ninety nine dollars q statement but after that the price is going to be one hundred forty nine dollars to state the countdown take uh that would be cool if it jeff and julie woods that they do a go cool thing that they have a heart for marriages on we went tio marriage conference for photographers it wasn't about photography it was all about was right actually got married you wouldn't go with me unless I married you now would be weird here's my girlfriend all right um thank you seriously, thanks for coming out. Thanks for submitting videos you guys are awesome. Um and I know that we'll go and have some beers and food tonight um I'm not going to end this creative live with the promise of then I'll do this and then I'll do that because I want it like I was supposed to a studio tour from my last one is just so busy and we have but it's just gotten to it yet, right? I need to studio so I'm not going to stress myself out well at a time we would think about it there was always that yeah, we have this one big commercial client and were wrapped in such a india uh um we can give you a studio tour of, you know, large objects covered in fabric, right, because we can't show you the product. But, um, anyways, it's, a studio as windows, has psych waltz, got a door. You walk in a bathroom and hair and make up some offices. My max on it's got the cheapest hard wood laminate I could find, because that's all like the board and stuff from antique stores. And I keep on it's pretty cool.