The Road to Becoming Pro
It is a road path that takes time and so, um I've been on this journey a long time I wish I had the resources that we have today back when I first started didn't have it um but today we have amazing resource is now here's the thing you have a lot of resources so does everyone else. So the bar is raising up very quickly the bar in terms of understanding how to make a living photography people are talking about mohr sharing how to do that techniques were sharing techniques, lighting techniques we know more about lighting today I mean, justice crazy what we have so, um, but in the end, I would say this it's a person who has the passion for the creative process who gets that works hard and understands that a lot of it's around marketing are the ones that succeed. And so if you learn that I'm telling you what you're gonna be rocking all right, so don't expect everyone to share in your vision and dream and what what I mean by this is that my dad loved me I was his favorite kid no, I'm just k...
idding. Um he says I'm his favorite when I'm with him without my brother's around, but he loved me I never doubted it not first second did he understand what I was doing, you know now did that affect me? Not really because I love what I did so much that he would say get a real job son get a real job I'd say dad this is what I want to do that I was working for a guy in college we were he had about eighty homes around the university area so I was the mr fix it guy go or tear something out put a new toilet and put a roof on you know you could I could work on my hands and we're driving down the road and I have been working for a couple years and he was a multi millionaire and he was self made self made and he were driving along and at the time I was I had a couple of pretty cool cameras I bought I painted houses and got a medium format camera I had a four by five view camera that I loved one or two lenses I was like and we're bouncing down the road in his truck and he said to me, joel, you stick with me by the time you're thirty you could be a millionaire and I looked over and I said can't I don't want to be a millionaire I want to be a photographer even then I understood that was my goal what money was in my goal and he's like looking at me like what and so he'd understand my vision, my dream my dad didn't understand most people didn't understand what I want to do don't expect them to it's a crazy little road we're kind of a strange group aren't we will do anything really down run over me just to get closer to my goal, right? We sacrifice a lot for our passion, but don't expect everyone to follow your in your dream in division something with with you in the audience because when and I'm serious when I said I did, I couldn't do photography last april when we got married in why I was appointed shoot my son change dials and I don't know and I thought peace did for a portrait I had no idea I was like, so upset because some settings I don't know, so when I started wanting to be a photographer, my own son is telling them I don't know why why you doing this? You know, I got friends that they can't make it and my wife would tell me so I won't talk photography because you know your son and I go well, just he doesn't understand because I'm a marketing guy, I've run a business for so long and I said, I don't care what his friends are can't do or not succeeding, but I know I can sell it and I ultimately I think where people fail because when I went to your workshop in january in phoenix a lot of people will go and have the same we teach him martial arts you know to know what not to do is not no people are excited they go home, they don't work they don't follow the marketing but I listened to you and even now every night I'm marketing on social media if I see someone likes a photo well no I'd like to do your portrait someday and I lead in and like who's your sponsor because all these things that joel is teaching a lot of people think about photography but they really don't listen to what you're saying about the marketing and going after it and pursuing it because business is not going to come to you I mean you just gotta go and pursue it and I'm very fortunate because I listen to you so I had a great show at our convention and I'm getting business business you know what I did I made marketing kind of a game like a fun game me that it was like a fish you know you're out there and you throw your your line in nothing you thought you're lying in nothing also the little nibble you're like okay throw it again little nibble try different bait boom you get him and that's what I mean I tried to do with marketing and I would build these really cool uh promo packets they're really kind a little artsy you know, really delicate and at hand, make him and sent him out. I couldn't wait to call the person to see what they thought of my work, right? And so that helps get past all the, you know, the hard things about marketing, but but going back to don't I expect everyone to share in your vision? A dream that's just life has there? Won't they come up to you and said, I'm going toe, you know, break the world record and you know, whatever and you're like, yeah, whatever just that's, just life, we don't all expect everyone we should expect everyone to share in our passion and dreams I wanted to just share that is part of my the road to becoming pro. One thing that you said that I just wanted to emphasize is that you said when you sent out your packet and then you'd be so excited, you know, having that feeling of being excited and that kind of pumped up feeling that helps you go to success keeping that feeling don't you think like, did you have that feeling of excitement all the time about everything you're doing? I feel like if you don't have that exciting feeling, then you need to change something, yeah, and there's going to be days and parts of the business that are just a drudge taxes the the keeping track of all the receipts when I go into a job there, some companies will just say give me a lot of line items they don't even don't even ask for a copy of the receipts then there's some companies that want every single receipt to the tee you can't get paid for anything unless you have a receipt we're talking to starbucks coffee that run that someone did if you have a receipt for that, you don't get paid, you can't just throw it on their coffee or food you know, food, meals, whatever line item no god ever see for it so that's a pain when it comes to running a business. And so there are some things about this being some employees I don't like but marketing I learned to enjoy and so and selling people, so when I went to washington d c I had my little act together, then I knew I understood how the market worked and I was just pounding on doors and I go in, I just throw my portfolio I'm like, and people go, you're not from around here are you know what I mean? You really excited and full of life? I mean, that was just like a bubbly, you know, because I was so excited about everything and it rubs off on people like let's get a project for you so that's a good attitude to have is I love what I do I can't wait to do it hire me I'm willing to go the extra yard for you and people see through that and it's great so anyways let's go to the next one I've talked about this a lot we shared about a little bit kind of has the same there is similar to what we just talked about here but don't let one person steal your dream and I have shared this in our last second workshop before the very first portfolio showing ever had I was so excited I was in denver and my friend steve and I we worked on my portfolio I was so ready I thought I could take the world by storm I walked in he looked at four boards had thirty ish looked at four he's put him down he said I told him it came from tucson and I just graduate from college belova and he said to me I got some advice for you go back to tucson, go back to san, he said, and you might want to rethink about being a photographer first for photos showing and I got in I get the payment with a lump in my throat tears in my eyes and I went back to that studio my friend steve was waiting for me and he said he saw the look on my face and I said I quit, I'm done I'm out of here what I shared with them the experience he said you're gonna let one person still your dream and I said yes and he kept repeating it you're going to let one person still your dream? I know it sounds crazy, but I can't do it you're gonna let one person still your dream he kept repeating it and guess what? I didn't let one person still my dream there's always going to be one person that's going to be in the in your way tio try to keep you from doing what you love don't do it don't let him have the power over that over you but we're weak fragile in secure we're human beings and it hurts when we get rejected or when someone says what you're going to be a photographer everyone's a photographer every mom with us you know, cameras a photographer now a soccer mom wouldn't come soccer moms of the camera don't let one a person steal your dream there's good there in fact, there are on every corner someone's wanna tryto disa discouraged you. In fact, when you put your stuff on social media there's always a person says, meaning you suck oh, it hurts and you go into depression, you get a bottle, you find a tall bridge, right? You're ready to jump that's how a lot of us are don't be like that there's always gonna be someone to steal you dream and you know what? It's usually the person who's got a lousy life that's trying to make sure you don't get a good life right that's trying to steal your dream so I talk a lot about that in my marketing segment all right? So don't expect it to have an over night cliff clips on the fast track right? Well, nothing wrong with being on the fast track but don't expect to happen overnight it takes time I've been doing this a long time I could tell you this cliff you're probably a lot more talented in me and so um is taking me thirty plus years to get where I'm at today thousands upon thousands of portrait's I've done and so um we're actually in a good age and I've said this that with today's assistance things like creative live or you know, the tutorials we have today the resource we have today you can learn in about two years what took meet easily ten years to learn we're on a fast track he still doesn't happen overnight, so be patient just keep on honing your skills and you'll look back at what you shot three months ago and say, ah, that was terrible because you've grown that much I even do that today I'll look back three months ago man I've gotten so much better that's fun but it doesn't happen over night all right with time long term sacrifices yield great rewards so there are sacrifices that come with being self employed being a photographer and having to chase your dream and we know this when you want to create wealth right? To talk to the people that say create wealth you say as a general rule you gotta you gotta work overtime you can't just, like, be a millionaire overnight right kind of thing you got to go and build over time and if you sacrifice this guy talked about kent who was I was in the pickup truck driving down the road what the first year that he was married his wife was a nurse he was working at capitol records records as a stock you know, stock boy, whatever you wanna call it you know, just the bottom rung um and what he did was they took her salary and put in the bank and they lived off his salary and the first year they had a mattress, no bed or no frame just a mattress on the floor they sacrificed, took her money, went out, bought their first house a fixer upper and then he leveraged that bought a couple more leveraged debt but more by tommy was thirty he was a multimillionaire started out on a mattress on the floor I started out on a phone pad in a warehouse in denver with no heat. The bathroom was just a toilet in a two thousand square foot room no enclose mint just a toilet talk about embarrassing do you need to use the bathroom? It was in the open right? So we had to build the bathroom around that we had to build everything we built. Everything out of that studio before is functional, but we just I lived on a phone, matt I drove junker cars sacrifice now and the reward's going much greater in the end you wantto a sports car when you first start out and have a five hundred dollar month payment good luck. Take that money and use it to build your career. So bill have sacrifices and it's harder when you have a wife and kids I can tell you that so I don't think I could have done it if I had not been single in those early days. Um but I do have a good wife but the thing is there are sacrifices to be made and it's ok? In fact, I look back at those years we were kind of fun, you know? I even got so I was so broke that I would have a job done it's all packaged up and I would go deliver it and I would drive around downtown denver and add weight had no money I'd wait no change not a dime in the car and wait till someone pull out of a meter and I look ten minutes pull in run up here's your job run down get my car that's how broken wass but with time it paid off all right so we talked about this cliff you were saying you worked late last night but expect to put in long hours on the road to becoming a photographer is putting a lot of power yours now if you have a passion for the craft and passion for your art they don't seem that long, do they? You love it but expect a long hours I have friends that you know in fact not to not to downplay my two brothers there fireman like that was fireman they became fireman er and they have a good job now they put in twenty four hours shifts but they have a lot of time off and they're going fishing they're going camping there doing all sorts of stuff taken trips all the time that's a great life but that's not the life of a photographer photographer you're putting in twelve hour plus days and last year in the spring in the fall I put in a stretch of ninety days not one day off not one afternoon off not one football game, not one just relaxing block of time ninety straight from event event from commercial shoot commercial shoot just nonstop and I'm fifty six years old man that's like beaten me up but that's the life of a photographer. Lotta hours, a lot of roads, a lot of traveling, a lot of hair airports I was on the united premier exact whatever. Flying over one hundred thousand miles a year just with one carrier lots of time in the airports and so that's the life of a photographer it's fine, but sometimes it's not so much fun. It's a little really tiring it's on your long hours and you're comment on spending personal time, personal assignments and fitting that in do you have a system to it? Make sure you have that time. That's outside of your work that's required of you that's your personal assignment. You have a way to make sure you fit that in when you have those long stretches of would work. Well, when my kids were little all man, it was just brutal for me to leave. I mean, brutal. Sometimes I get all choked up just walking out the door, watching little kids going daddy, daddy and the option but what we did was we home school our kids so when I came home I'd take the kids out we go we go camping and we do fun stuff I'd take him and they'd hang out we'd hang out nonstop for five days or whatever it was that had a break and then off I went I went and and so when amy has stories of little boys you say where's daddy and a little bit on the airplane I was always gone hard I look back and go you know what would I do that again? Probably not that was tough on those kids but um you gotta set aside personal time it's not easy when the pressure's there toe pay the mortgages and you know all the things that you got dio and I think cliff you mentioned you say I can't sit down my wife have our time and then go into my photo shop I have a friend who's an engineer semi retired and he got into photography and started working photo shop and I you know I know his wife pretty well and about a year into his little process on his road to becoming a photographer with his wife how you doing? She said I'm a photo shop widow it was always on the computer working right so mmm it is hard okay be prepared to wear a lot of different hats you gotta be accountant you got to be a marketer gotta be sweeping the studio building the studio you know there's so many has to wear when you're a photographer and actually in some ways that's kind of fun because I liked building things you know? So I will build a set I don't necessary like to mop the floor but I don't mind mopping the floor I don't mind getting get the mop going mopping in the psych just kind of down time turn the radio on just mop clean up but I wear a lot of different hats people think I have a staff for me do it all my stuff you know when I have a shoot I got him running around doing stuff for me but they're not there full time and so I'm doing a lot of stuff I'm fixing things I'm you know, like I said, I built my I have a big huge wall that's on rollers it's twelve by eight on the back I store all my phone cord and apple boxes of stuff that thing's on big huge cast rollers I built it I built my own psych now didn't you issue though that you were a martial arts school? I don't wax on wax off because there is an advantage my studio peed in my martial arts school yeah that's true, but but expect to wear a lot of different hats I mean, how many hats do we wear? His photographers probably doesn't and with time you can start to farm out some of those hats I do all my own retouching I don't have anyone dude, my retouching for me now that I say that with a little pride but is also if I really wanted to make money, I wouldn't do my own retouching. I'd have someone doing it for me because here's the thing and you'll discover this I can make five to ten times more money taking the picture, then I can't be touching in terms of billable time now I've learned this with some of my big clients I now have racked up my retouching fees huge I'm now asking a lot more money from every touching and here's why? Because I have built a brand and so I have companies call me up here, we want to do this campaign and bubba blah and we're gonna have you no retouching team put it together and I say new, I do it well, we don't do that, we always have a way we have a team that does it, you know that does the finishing? Nope, I do it, I'm an artist, I want to see it all the way through you want my joel grands look, yeah, you have me do it all the way through now again, I'm not going to make this much money because how many hours I can spend three hours shooting an athlete or a bb the whole process of start to finish in the studio and I can have four days of retouching and not getting paid the same amount on the retouching isn't the shooting part but I am in our test that's why I do it I love the process I want to say I did it all a little bit of ah pride issue maybe but the fact is that's why I'm in it I want it I want to finish it but it's not the best business plan if I was going to make money I'd have accrued doing it for me what you're feeling because uh and my wife said that don't ever get to the point where you're not having fun doing it I like shooting but I don't like necessarily you know family portrait since senior that all the editing but I want to do my creative work from start to finish what's your feeling about shooting and then outsourcing you know, just stuff like that thing you know, fine that's a great model another wrong with that and again that that might be something would be a good a good kind of ah what would you call it uh balance between okay, I'm turning over my retouching on the jobs that are just basic jobs but all my really finished, you know, kind of personal work you do it all yourself that's good, but um they said being my own re toucher is served me very well because I've had to learn photo shop and having a learn photoshopped im hopefully at the cutting edge of what's happening in the workplace I'm not relying someone else to be on the cutting edge so I have a question I saw a question from another person yesterday kind of along with the same lines newby said how will your age impact the chance of getting the project? I'm an older shooter female sixty one trying a new commercial market good question okay when you knock on the ad agency's doors the odds are that the art director is probably going to be ten for me is going to be ten, twenty years younger than me I'm gonna look like an old guy so you could say that um I'm not going to be this hip hipster, you know? Hey, this guy's cool and we he's like, you know, the next greatest thing um so that could be an issue you know samuel older but here's the thing with age brings wisdom and experience and I've had more art directors could come up to me after a shoot and say, wow, you are so professional you are so efficient you are so quick you make decisions so so on the spot and you know exactly what you want if this has been the best experience I've ever had in a photo shoot we had some rock star young photographer come out and it was a nightmare right so I bring with me something that time has allowed me to do and I've done this I walk into a room and they say we need to do an executive portrait or something whatever and here's this big room with what window lights and there's all this stuff around and I walk in and go okay right here we need to have our subject here I'm with you this way you sure this is within fifteen seconds to walk in the room now you sure you want to know this is where it's gonna be why I mean sure you want to think of it no, I know I've done this so many times here's my big light source coming across here there's big pipes over there I don't want to shoot that direction I gotta stoop this trick so in my head quickly I know what's gonna work best because I've shot thousands if not ten thousands of of images in my lifetime so I can process it really quickly and so that's what time comes you know comes that maturity and so that doesn't mean of young rock star can't pull off a shoot I'm just saying that use your wisdom and your maturity to work for you and say when you were in a situation, maybe bidding just say, you know, I've been down this road a hundred times I know this like the back of my hand and that could help and we'll see what says learn to develop the art of recruiting so I tell this to my boys all the time my son comes to me hey, dad, I got an idea. I want to shoot this model. I want to put him. I got this car found this car and I won't shoot this model. And you have the models for me. You know I have a list, right? It I say, well, son, you have to learn to get your models. What? Well, where to get him. You gotta learn the art of recruiting. You gotta go learn to go. You see someone? Hey, you know what? You'd make a great subject. Can I borrow you? Shoot you? I got this idea learned the art of recruiting. Get people in front your lens. And so, um, you look at my model's, vincent. What do you think I found then set he didn't come to me. I found him. Actually, it was five years ago. A model, ma'am, now model mayhem has changed a lot and it's gotten kind of a sleazy source. But usually a pretty good source and there's other sources out there too. But the fact is is I'm flipping through model and ham I see his picture oh, this guy's gonna be good. I start recruiting him. Hey, that's, a great idea got this project baba. Next thing I know, I've used him a lot over the years. You know, the art of recruiting get people in front of your lens, get your model is and then treat your models really well, they can't come in. We're going to have jessica come in here. Jessica have used a lot. I found her a model may am a long time ago. She's amazing. I got probably twenty pictures. My portfolio of jessica. How do I get her? The art of recruiting had to get her in my studio somehow. And a lot of it is by showing great pictures they want to come in but recruiting, being enthusiastic. So I got an idea learned the art of recruiting and you can go to a mall recruit now, here's what I would say if you're a guy and you go try teo, pick up some sixteen year old girl in a mall. Not a good idea. Now, if you have your wife with you, that helps, and if the sixteen year old has her mother with you her that helps so you don't want to be sleazy about it you know you put someone in a position where they think you're you know creep o but you gotta recruit so ah lot of times I do I'll say to my wife you know what that person I'd love to go let's go see if we could talk to that mom about many of photographing your daughter or your son or whatever it is and then I recruit so learn and develop the art of recruiting all right? We're getting close to being done here I have a say in fact my friends steven I just say this all the time we were either three months or be rich or three months from bream poor because you know, you get you're juggling a lot of stuff you got invoices out outstanding you know, invoices and people are saying they're paying you're not paying you and the next thing you know I want you so three months you're like oh yeah I got all the money and buy the new linens all this stuff and then three months later going I don't have enough money to eat right? It was like this and so you have to learn to flatten it out a little bit by being conservative by saying okay, I don't need to buy that lens right now by getting fifty percent advance don't let be bank from the client you know, those kind of thanks but that's how fast you could be either rocking it or in the poor house that's part of being a pro being on the road of being a pro photographer it's an up and down swing and it's hard on your psyche your mood because it's like um there was a saying had I said that money doesn't guarantee happiness the being broke sure guarantees depression I mean we're broke a psycho like us you know how I'm going to get through the day and I got all these you know, people screaming at me for money that's a hard position to be in so try to level it out a little bit because servant I've put a little money aside you don't always need to have that new lens you don't have to have it question from a funky koval what keeps you going when for months you get no clients and is it worth doing your personal work for free yes so doing the personal work keeps the flow going is that what keeps your spirit absolutely so if you get in the get and if you get depressed and your stress and there's no money go out freedom keep creating creating creating stay in that place now here's the thing if you're doing your marking correctly if you're sending out packets and you're knocking on doors you can go from having no clients not as from zero and three months you could be rocking busy in three months you can't do it in two weeks but in about three months of marketing I found you could be like slammed so what does that tell you your three months from being broken poor but that's about a three month period where if you do it right you can get clients pretty darn quick that's a good that's a good question though. All right, so I think we got our last slide here this is it the drumroll learn to separate your wants from your needs that's a hard one remember we talked about I go to my wife I need this new lives because you need if you want it well I want it but I need it now do you want it or need it come on tell me um yeah it's hard to separate them why? Because we're human and humanity always gets in our way right when someone tells us the second we going on our closet and curl in a ball and cry because we're human so humanity gets in our way we don't understand our need wants from our needs um so and I do have one more slide but go ahead what do you say? I had a question uh so you talk about your needs versus your wants and that's your talking about life but what about your needs and your wants in your photography so jan asked what kept you on your way and focused on your dream? I work as a professional photographer but can't shoot what I want, teo, because I need to earn money, it's hard to still follow personal preferences and not get lost. All right, so here's, the problem she is she she's going down the path that she says, I have a client base out there, I'm gonna build a body work that meet their needs. So she's always going to be doing piddly little photography work stuff that she doesn't really like because he's trying to meet a client steeds she needs to go back to the mindset that I'm gonna create a body of work that I love that gets me up in the morning, that I can't wait to go out and have a bus run over me because I get that picture build that bodywork, put that in your portfolio, and then you start to recruit the clients that want to hire that kind of work. So she stuck in that mindset that she's trying to meet her client's needs and that's scary. It isthe that's a scary place. You could make a living at it, but you don't really end up doing what you want to do, which is almost worse in some ways it is, yeah. Because you know what being a photographer's has it up and down you know it road but if you do what you love and you put up with it that makes sense all right one last slide I guarantee this my last life last lecture of today I unless I'm shooting out do a little lecture here comes up I didn't hit my button hard enough it's saying no we don't want the last live here it isthe put together a set of goals and a business plan at least five years out now I said this to my wife do we do that and I go well kind of I'm always thinking ahead I'm always thinking ahead and have a business plan not so much business plan I think I do but I have a marketing plan I have a image creation plan I think okay I want to be able to go after this client a year from now so I have a year to build enough images to get that client I'm always doing that but you have to think ahead that's basically what they think ahead where do I want to be a year from now or five years from now and then you put that plan together now there's people that write books about their people that specialize in business plans and all that you know I'm not an expert in that but I could tell you this I do think ahead I'm thinking ahead of where I want to be and then I set that goal and I work toward it once you set that goal, then you have a plan teo to say this I need okay for example I want to shoot executives. Okay, what? Ideo recruit a couple good looking executive type people doing environmental part do you into executives? You need the background in their studio space that studio space but use your own location somewhere but you said a background shoot a bunch of executives you need the environmental executive shot the big ceo who's in his atrium or on top of the roof of a fortune five hundred. Whatever it is you need to learn have and how to do some of those. So you say, okay, I want to do that and I will set my goal. I'm going start recruiting so you go okay? I got a friend who's it works as an executive, you know or good looking person here, there, there, there good looking people that's important I don't photograph, I shouldn't say I should photograph good looking people recruit good looking people good looking to me at least been said, I think he's a good looking subject now he may not win the you know, g q warn of the year maybe will mean he's kind of you've got a great look, but I like good looking people and they make me look good when I do pictures of him so but set your plan ahead and then that gives you a little bit of ah ah it's like the railroad tracks right? You're following that plan you know you're not doing this too much yes, just real quick here from somebody that's been making a living and tedious family for fifteen years on photography you know, I see a lot of guys coming and going in the industry that have been around since film and they're just tired and they've been doing this for a long time what would you say is like the number one thing that they should refocus if they want to stay in the business for another five years? You're talking about the five year business plan, but what would what would somebody like me if you were? If you were to give me one piece of advice about the next five years, where should I be headed in order keep my energy up? The first question I ask you is what kind of photography excites you more than anything? What subject matter what kind of photography? And um I would say that probably you've had the mindset that you're trying to meet your clients needs you haven't really built the body of work that you love more than anything and then those clients aren't calling you you're not getting the work that really excites you so again you could make a living at what you're doing but here's the problem with someone like you someone who's been industry ten to fifteen years the odds are they're creating the same kind of images that they did with five years ago or ten years ago. Sable images boring I have a question what I'm sitting on a shoot could have done this ten years ago it's a yes boring who wants to photograph boring pictures I don't I want exciting pictures I want pictures that rock I can't wait to hang on the wall so are you doing that? Are you creating images you want to hang on the wall? There's there's there's the big thing now here's the thing the difference between creating just images that are boring everyday pictures for your clients and pictures that rock is not that big of a gap it's really not and you know what I did? Cliff saw I'm taking this huge like they're like movie stands the vinger big vinger stands with a big boom on it with twenty five to twenty five pound sandbags that's fifty pounds and sandbags with a big old with the boom with the light with the soft box it's like what five feet by four feet by six feet or whatever it is the biggest westcott boxes two of those honkin sets and moving them around the harleys sweating out there right? But I'm having a blast because I'm doing what I want to do I'll pay the price to get there now most of harpers had been around my age, so I'm not doing that I'm gonna haul all that gear on the field do that I'm gonna pick that I'm gonna have an assistant do that well, I could have assistant do that, but I gotta pay an assistant do that. I'm on the road anyways cliff offered to help but it's like he's older to meet noah are you ordering me? Yeah, no, the fact is that I'm out there doing what I want to do, but I'm paying the price do it right it's not an easy thing I could be home watching tv. In fact, I love watching football, but I hardly ever watch football anymore. I don't sit on a sunday afternoon watching football I watch super bowl that's about it every year. Why? Because I'm not created images on a sunday afternoon uh, ezra eckmann would like to know what do you think about net networking based marketing like meeting start ups and small businesses businesses that networking events and doing the direct pitch thing in that situation beautiful there's nothing better than meeting someone face to face facebook is not face to face or any social media it's. When you go and talk to someone, say, and that enthusiasm in front of someone is contagious. So, yes, meetups are great.