Workshop 13 - Reverse Engineering Sound Design with SeamlessR
Our next presenter is in town from massachusetts he is a sound designer and composer has worked with artists like beatty and sell dweller and he's going to be talking about critical listening and reverse engineering and sound design. So talking about some concepts for how artists arrived at making some of the sounds that you're hearing on those records and how you khun more easily create the sounds that you're hearing in your head and translate them to your dog so a warm welcome for seamless hi and right now we're gonna start talking about reverse engineering is that's what it is, but I think so it was a couple major portions to this and actually read just now I just thought that I was going to reverse kind of what I was going to dio um, I'll begin today by showing you sort of like a practical example of how I approach what I do when I wanted when I hear a sound and I would say ok, how how do how does that made? How do I go about it? And I'm using f l for this purpose but sort of the t...
hings that I do, what can be done with any kind of thing that does similar display of like spectral behavior things that are happening in the frequencies that define what the sound is doing pretty simple way we could see things yeah, all right so I made a sound like a few minutes ago just so I have a thing to kind of look at and what we're looking at here is a sort of a visual representation of movement in the audio spectrum so if ever you're thinking yourself okay I wantto try they do a sound and you're not really able to just automatically identify how to make a sound there's this is what I refer to as the brute force method where you look at the spectrum and you see kind of what comes in what comes out where it's moving like these you see these sort of holes in the spectrum show up like that it's different kinds of builders doing different things and you see that and you think yourself ok, I'm going to start with something and then just try and force something to shape like that and chances are it'll it'll sound kind of like kind of like the sound that you're actually using this particular sound sounds like this and that's the first time I actually heard that so I'm glad that it worked out as a something okay um now if you look at if you look at what's going on in here we could sort of identify key points and this is something you're going to see a lot and sounds in songs this is the sound by itself which is not something that you hear all that often nowadays in music we usually saying things like the drums and hats and whatever kind of like dirty of the spectrum and that kind of includes a little bit of what is the sound of trying to make him what is other stuff um although sometimes I can kind of be to your benefit and that has to do with one of the big facets of trying to identify the stuff and that's analytical listening where you're not the chances are if you're first starting out as a producer you already have ideas you had about so if you want to make and those ideas are born of just songs you've listened to throughout your life in time and whatever and when you listen to something recreationally you're not really paying attention to certain ideas and certain things that when you do when trying to listen to something with an analytical mindset um like I decided the idea that it could be drums and stuff in there and hats and whatever layering in there and people when they mix songs they use those elements combine them together to create a larger overall image in our mind of the sound and the example attended get to explain this most clearly is actually guitar mixing and metal songs because if you ever heard a like a like a metal tone guitar tone by itself like it's mixed state outside of like out of context it doesn't sound anything like you think it would because there's no low end and there's no high end and the mids air probably scooped out really hard as well, and these are all decisions that are made not just cheap, telling the qatar itself, but also that it fits really well with things like the base can hardly vocalists and the drums and all these things, and these things are all happening in concert to make it make it all usually to accentuate the guitar because it's kind of main element in the genre. But if you're not thinking about these things, you don't know that your your first thought when you're thinking ok, I would make a really awesome metal guitar tone is that you're going to try and have all the elements in the tone just ready to go. And not only is that really hard do just like that, but then you'll find we try to mix it into the song later that you're suddenly running into a whole bunch of walls because there's stuff in there that's not in the thing that you were imagining, so you have to go to those songs and try and isolate in your mind what the individual sounds are and like ninety percent of times if you're going to find that whatever is actually happening is way less complicated than you in your brain remembered, you tend to remember things and exaggerated level of awesome this depending on how well you liked it I guess studies on that I'm sure um once you've done that then you go about trying you know as identify a particular methods of trying to do it so coming into this workshop you're probably hoping that I'm going to drop some kind of like super secrets and the reverse engineering to make everything really easy and here to tell you that that's not really something that could happen the truth of the matter is that the easiest way that you're ever going to just say look ok, I know how to make that sound is if you are you know how to make that sound and I'm not saying that like you need to know learn everything ever but there are some key things that if you learn you can kind of use them to build against each other and then eventually you'll be you realized a lot of sounds are kind of based on the same stuff um really sort of basics of sounds I stuff like you know learn what it's always sounds like learn what a square away it sounds like there were all the filters do that kind of thing and being just that those two those six things because it's always spring waited in the four primary golden types high pass low pass not shin band pass and you figure these out how they move around whatever got the sound like you just know like eighty percent of sound design right there and just huge swaths of of sounds like all the super size all the leads, most of the simplest kinds of base they're based on those elements and you just experiment with them and then you get it and then you hear things and it's worked up now kind of feeling is related, but I think I want to mention is that saying that people like that I like and the saying is if you have a hammer, all of your problems starts to look like nails if you only have a hammer if you only want to have a hamburger than all the problems of the nails and this is actually super duper tree when it comes to sound design because if you say got really, really into fnc business and just kind of didn't do anything else with anything else, then every sound you hear you're going to kind of put through the filter of bedtime to this issue going try really hard to be like how are going to make that sound with that? This is now the thing about the hammer the nail thing is the idea is that sometimes they're not nails sometimes they're screws and you know when they want to be hammering a screw but on the other hand that if you're really created with a hammer you can probably deal with scrooge is fine I know things you know supposed to hammer mice go hammer mouse, but if you're really careful with, I'm sure you could use the mouse with a hammer is that something you probably want to do? But you can point I'm saying is that there's there's the way that whoever made the original sound made the sound and then there's the way that you can make the sound which may or may not actually be the way that was originally done and it might not even be, um it might be better honestly, there's a lot of the stuff that people have when they look at their idols are people that they assume or like, you know, way better than them about sound design that they knew everything that they knew you know, they know everything about sounds like when they actually made this out that is like not ever the case it's sometimes the case. So there are the geniuses out there that actually do know everything about everything, but for the most part the amount of effort you're going put into reverse engineering something far outstrips the amount of effort that was actually made to make this out because they didn't really carry that much about it as we do way obsess over it were saying how we make the sound, how and then, you know, we spend four years learning how to do with them so back to this thing, the way I mentioned that the difference between assault, even a square with that and the house sounds that kind of thing and a lot of you if your producers at all should know what it's always described, it sounds like it would be actually kind of impressed if you got us far is coming to this building without noting what a solid this railway sounds like, so it's important to mention that because there's a lot of stuff that like you just know you're not going to understand about sound unless you already hear it like I I mentioned the offends example because that's what I did, I just did not I didn't learn about filters I didn't learn about distortion I just learned that fan because I thought that was like the key to the universe it's a key to a large perch into the universe but not enough of it to be like yeah and everything so and then when I started a little real basic stuff like what a band pass filter sounds like like I just didn't know because I never used used one and then suddenly like everything the product has ever done a lot of sense I didn't really that wasn't in my tool kit but like it's like a light switch happens oh that's just my god same thing the stuff like phasers and flanders actually well common now like a lot of a lot of current sound design is based on like really short delay which is how favors the fighters work and really high feedback and that kind of sound design over over just stuff that like what sound like fm but that fm and we'll triple a lot again though the whole hammer and no idea that you only have the hammer that you could try and force yourself to make that sound and they actually have demonstrated sound that I could've swore was fm from longest time until I saw someone do it and this is the sad truth of sound design is that a lot of it is not very intuitive where like there's no reason to know how to do like even why I'm going to show you unless like someone someone I'll show you because why would you assume that unless we already knew kind of a lot about sound design and things like distortion how things behave if you knew that then you think ok that's cool but like making this kind of charity party wouldn't get to that point because it doesn't seem really like that my level of the past this but when I'm going to make right now is something that I refer to as the dub step base because it's the sound and company just in everything it's karen died off over time but in the early bro step era this was kind of in everything and you're going to recognize it immediately we're gonna do is I'm going to take to sign with you and I were the story together distortion gay and turn turn it way to hell down because loudness go away yeah uh now that they're just make you have touched so based on a high pitched tone that if you modulate the volume of the low base, that low blow town that happens that is the sound and a moat emotion that when I heard mike the hammer in my head that was a fan decided that that was in effect base it does sound an awful lot like some things you could do with them, but it is just unimaginable somewhere to be doing what it is they're which was to sideways distortion that that is the kind of stuff reverse engineering wise that you really aren't going to get from some second special like reverse engineering training it's a lot like music theory where if you don't know music theory but you're still making music when you end up eventually learning with the theory which if you're not gonna kind of it is you do a lot of happening is that you start putting names to step that you learned on your own he kind of feeling the blakes I feel like that's what that is and then you kind of learn sort of what it's supposed to do and then you see what people are doing with it and then then that all kind of clicks and it's a little bit it is really on life you did you're gonna do that like on your own that you just kind of happened onto it it happens we know there's some anecdotal evidence to the contrary but it's super like I spent years and years of my career as a producer could have been like shortened a lot if extinct super simple things we're told the maid like breath bad about normal sound is an end um mostly about fm I already did a workshop on I found so I'm not going to do go through him all over again but it's the thing the basic stuff that was really really kind of important like are you might want to go straight telling the really advanced stuff like how does how to vote coders work and like re sampling and layering and all this crazy stuff but like the crazy stuff still requires an understanding of the basic stuff and really everyone who has said things about um learning about like how do how do you go about wearing these? This kind of stuff at this conference is all mentioned that you have to have a real command of the fundamentals and then once you do a lot of stuff starts to make a lot more sense and even even things that you wouldn't think are are, like, possibly to be that easy, like I was talking tio to someone else at the convention about analog modular stuff, because one of the things that analog stuff could do really well still more. So the digital stuff is the fm and everything concept that is the idea that you can, you know, see the butt fm whatever primary one as you want for as long as you want, and it doesn't visual stuff, some visual stuff could do it some but it's still kind of a limited application of it when I bring this up because a lot of original noisiest sounds sounds little like coveted as being like, you know, lords of sound, design and stuff people want trying recision you're pretty much forever and then, like in their attempts to try and reverse engineer, they make other things and being like lords of sound design a lot, you know, skrillex examples, but that stuff that sound in it is just basic filter fm and I didn't know that until the last week, when I finally got, you know, an actual and analytically modular reagan's they must marry them going, oh. Damn pass and fill the reform and that sounds like that block control vips from two thousand six and I was just like I wouldn't have known that there's no way you can know that because I don't know what I wouldn't have known what actual phil griffin sounds like and that is a cautionary tale I don't know, I guess I really caution don't have passion, I guess whatever mixing metaphors um yeah, so and you go back to anna legalistic so when you listen to a song and the visual idea that you're looking at the actual like analysis, I'm a music this is edison inside, I felt it is available as a vsd I believe so if you want to put this business into whatever else you can but any kind of other any other there are other visual styles of looking at spectrum analysis I forget with the thing and able to this call, but there is one is also the box and jokes and go span that's a word I've never had to say I'm not before and that will do more or less the same job and what this helps you to do is look at harmonic content and is one of very, very important harmonic idea is you want to look at that I'm one hundred percent was starting talk about and then didn't and that's the whole solid square business um real quick before I forget again let's look at a sort of square live and now it's less less about what it sounds like more about what it looks like because of an extremely important difference so basic all right so the space between the first harmonic in the second demonic is one active in the regular four years here is that's what that is and then in the square it's an active in the fifth because every other harmonic is gone and that holly sound of a square wave is that this is important because a lot of modern sound design especially like heavy bass music relies our types of processing they that net you square based harmonics and obviously the resulting sound is not even related to the square anymore in terms of the shape but the harmonic content is still that so that whenever whenever I start to reverse engineer sound and I'm looking at this a special display of the sound my first thought is ok is this saul bass or is this square based like everything could be broken down into that and there are some incredibly rare examples where there are not cheryl sorrow square with syria's might be a bit more condensed there if you think it can actually do that it involves like massive for example for native instruments has figured to ship there effect which actually does kind of crush the harmonics a bit and a lot of traveling times I think involved that kind of thing which is something else that you probably would have been able to know unless someone told you about that because how would you know that did that but um something this particular sound you could look at this and you can see ok that's a short with a sharp that's knocked a little analysis told me what triggered he's supposed to be the kind of thing and there's other the comparison you could do to try and do it but you won't identify weather that at this hour square and then once you do that I mean if it saw it doesn't really help you a lot because pretty much everything you do is men that you saw harmonics unless you're trying really hard not to and then the not to we'll get you a sound that sounds like square stuff and then we should do that also makes the brute forcing easier reinforcing being the idea that ok I'm going to try and have a filter that's going to do whatever these wacky shapes are to try and make it sound like that then uh it was a square wave harmonic a lot I waste a lot of time with crazy fm antics even now even though I know I shouldn't but a lot of times just like the sound if it sounds like a square wave you could probably get away with just filled tahrir square waving distorting it nobody in that um but another important part about reverse engineering actually well, because looking at this, even though I just made the sound if I tried reverse engineer even though I know everything about how I made it if I tried to do it again it wouldn't sound exactly the same it would sound a little bit different and that's could be the case with the moral s everything and unless the site itself is really, really simple, like the ducks that base with two sideways play earlier, chances are you're never really going to get like, super on point with your reverse analysis and what I suggest you do unless you're just trying to for the fun of it, I really stiff that you don't waste a lot of time trying to get that last minute detail of it exactly the same and the reason for that is well, you're comparing it to the original, which means that there's always gonna be some kind of lacking like comparison to it, nobody else this is really gonna know that like it was going to tell them or less is really obvious that you tried to go for that whatever the u s was, but chances are some onlookers that wasn't it wasn't a rarely original here's the original here's yours they're going to think of them as being interchangeable depending on how far you got with it and like that's usually like seventy five percent of the way there would be like ok that's just that version of the south with someone different so you really need to waste a huge amount of time to try and really nail it and when I actually recommend is that instead of nailing the specific sound is that you nailed a concept so looking at this this thing going on here I think when we listen to what we can also hear there's a lot of audio cues like full of in here like it has a distorted edge to it's a distortion was involved how so the sharpness and the angular nature of the sound betrays the story of edge at least in the way that I hear it all though the whole hammer and nail thing there's a lot of there's a lot of ways that you can try kind of hard with not distortion to bake it still sound like that because if you did just play us always by itself it would still kind of have that content and that has to do with sort of what distortion does to sounds which harmonically usually just means it adds additional harmonics to the sound so if you have already all the harmonics than the distortion actual distortion is not wholly necessary um it's kind of a view that but how do you want to make that sound the filtering I was mentioning um if you look at sort of where over the various holes are in the spectrum, not just the sharp ones like these guys were sort of the larger motion of it because you like, for example, like this area's up, you know, it's illuminated with this area's not so that's either. Ah, hi past, given that it's cutting off lower frequencies and keeping the higher frequencies or the band pass and just happens to be higher figure at the moment, but we could also see that there's, this big old, you know, some frequency that's not really moving a lot and it's not being cut at all, and that is actually a new, important part of modern sound design, where a lot of people will replace the low end of there's on design with a clean sine wave, because some of the stuff that you do tio create the sounds creates a really muddy and screwed up low in, which makes it hard to mix it isn't sounding clean and not really is good on big old systems in that kind of thing, so replacing the sub is a big idea that you're going to see, especially if you just put the whole song one of these things you'll see that a lot it's important to note, because you can effectively consider that to be not part of the sound that you're making you could figure that is like just not being part of the filter brushing and can you see that you can think of the floor is just keep going down to nothingness from the second harmonic on top of that um and then I was gonna talk about band passing. Eso had a whole thing about band passing. Yeah. Um, sometimes band passing is accomplished by combining a high pass in a low pass holder it's something that massive does by default like it's banned past. And it is something that does that. And if you ever look at what it does in the spectral announced like this and you turn the residents of really high, you'll see two peaks and that's because the peak of a low pass at a high pass and the band width controls how far apart there it's pretty cool of for massive to do that, but it's not sort of actually would like a single band passes and this was going to segway into a thing about coming together with the basics. And then I think the songs again um and then comparing, imagining, imagining comparison thing need all right, man, I barely have a speed limit was fine. This is educational for me as well we're all learning so much about ourselves and me uh yeah, most of it most of like okay actually I'll tell you a story let's do that now so if you go to buy youtube channel on youtube dot com slash seamless r I do I do a lot of sound is on requests where people will last time I make a certain sound and then I'll try and recreate it myself and there's sort of two ways that approach doing that it's either that the sound is simple enough I just know what it is because I've done it before usually by accident trying to something else as kind remember ok cool about how did that and then or I'll have to break out the analysis to kind of look at specifically okay houses moving house is looking at that kind of thing and the analysis is not not just for stuff like the really like heavy handed stuff like these filters that are showing off here but there's also a lot of tell tale stuff you can see for a very specific effects like what happens when you use unison on on wave forms that kind of thing like uh a real quick example of just assault wave versus a unison as always is the default now is that there it is your duty to do that do todo awesome so normal saw a wave in the spectrum nice and solid you know unchanging is just there and the second we introduce unison like to voice to use it especially you can see all kinds of movement happening up there and if you were the low voices that happens I mean, I mentioned the noisy example and a whole lot of noisy a sound design has that happening to it and it's not that they just started with the sound of having a low unison it's always is that they actually just do that term sounds and post and there's ways to do that with sort of finished sounds in quote unquote they've ever had this sound and has had it in the dark and I didn't doubled it up and changed the pitch over let me get a little bit of that effect it kind of going down in a field that's what happens since emanuel unison of render effect like that and that exhibits that well that that would have exhibited that effect I think I could just show us to you instead of talking about it today did it do do examples carried a level no over my dead like he is yeah. So now you can kind of see the striations show up in the spectrum where there was once nice and solid this you know, with the fellows whenever it gets to see also there's a little parallel almost lions showing up and you see that kind of thing then you can you can sort of infer ok, cool some of that post units and was involved and those that that kind of thing will show up also somewhat of that you might see versions like that only instead of the dark line showing up, you see bright line showing up and that would be that the lake effect phaser the high the high feedback phaser effect which I could also just demonstrate because we live in the future where things can just happen to ms missed I'm not used this mouse I apologize or this list where the hell is under fire? Just phasers do that so typical phaser affection, that kind of thing, but if you really jack up the feedback like that rainy business, that doesn't really like heavy handed example of some of the effects that show up and, um, like zombie songs a lot now squares, and that will get you a very long way and this distortion the story, everything if if that's something you're not dealing, you should be doing that and a lot of stuff to make a lot more sense clipping and distortion and just, oh boy compression all that all day the social was another thing that I didn't like I didn't learn a lot about, but I was chasing my fm dreams and I've suffered for it, so that was the story actually I was going tell you about sort of how I came to learn about a lot of stuff and the fm was part of that told the story with the ff workshop bottle to get anyway is that I actually tried really hard to learn how to make killed annoys sound design because why would you and I was dead set on this idea that it was done with fm the whole hammer a nail idea it wasn't at all but because I tried so hard I'm doing a whole bunch of things with fm says the experiment and when I was done being like I give up I'm not doing this when I want to go with the other stuff that used to be a problem for me I suddenly have this whole huge tools that in my head about like solutions for stuff that initially presented themselves as being this mysterious how did that what idea? Some of them are just not necessarily as eloquent as actual time designers made with them like for example, the dubs that basis just to sign waves spent a lot of time doing weird fm things that which were complicated and needed to be but I tend to care about that stuff because who doesn't want to spend our time? Mr brown was sound design so um if I were to give myself like a curriculum like learn about the basis of sound design I would have mostly started off with the regulars practice in the system let's fm alone for kind of a while a lot just almost anything could be done with regular practice stuff. Very specific things could only be accomplished with fm and then the rest of it could be accomplished with more esoteric stuff like granular and wait table and, uh additive even assed faras recreating stuff, though like things that are purely additive or kind of rare does because out of the visit azad ideas still rather new so there's not a lot of people out there who has made sounds with added this of the system you want to recreate just yet a lot of stuff's been done with wait tables. So this is like I mentioned kill the noise that it turns out a lot of the killed lori stuff were based in massive using wave table specific manipulation. Um, things you could do with serum now are actually rather similar to that and they take it kind of far steve, do that who developed it has basically made like a ce faras the way table stuff go like the serum is kind of for now um fm could do a lot of crazy things about the way table stuff kind of takes. It takes the rest the edge to it and then there's. Also the other half of the illinois stuff is that he used the talk box on some of the stuff like actually for real talk locks and that sounds a lot different than what the visual versions are talk box sounds like or even different than even the best folk odors I was like and it's not that's everything that you just wouldn't have known and that someone told your one day you were heard talk box here it's kind of like let's that is what that particular tinge of the bigness of it sounds like basic sounds and uh, effects are very important and I mean you might be thinking well there but it's like you needed when you identify an effect that you want to learn like the band passport there is not so much like ok, wait a bank actually sounds like you need to sort of put that in contact with a whole bunch of stuff and because there's a lot of like really basic almost tricks that people d'oh that they discovered almost immediately with whatever tools ever they were using and that made some iconic sound because they were just the first one to try doing it but it really was really basically people just attributed some grander nature to it that you take lightly side almost psychotically psychologically I think that just because they were the ones that do it it has to be some kind of like marvel of science that they used to accomplish it when really it was um oh boy so that brings me to a really funny aspect of a mercenary there's this guy I know who is he's a ghost producer I don't know who he's produced but his asylum cloud I guess I probably shouldn't tell you who he is that I think about it but hey hey has a son home with a bunch of recreations where he just shows off that he can recreate sounds and unlike my recreations which I said I am to recreate the concept so that I can kind of take that and run with it you different stuff with it and so just what the original one hey nailed them like one hundred percent like this is the sound this is literally the sound so much so that you think he just got the masters it just put him on soundcloud is like why would you do that? But his mastery of reverse engineering is born even if tyler did entirely different kind like set on knowledge, whereas I am a believer that if you learned about sound design like the basic molecular level stuff about this like you know saul waves and it's attractive and ahead of whatever that you can learn to do anything with anything, any dog, any plug in the majority of them work on very similar rounds to the point where like if you're working out that's just got it's not something to worry about the others say that some of them don't have very specific, very unique things themselves in fact, I learned yesterday that zebra two from you, he does some stuff I didn't think things could dio so that should tell you something, but this guy being a ghost producer, he is the lord of nexus and silent and massive and intimate and like the the industry standard plug ins like he knows he knows the front back and not just in terms of using using them with the tools like, you know, what, whatever, but he knows the preset libraries really well, being a ghost producer, it pays well to be able to kind of shove off stuff pretty fast and things that sound like other things that you just waited that is just get three sets of the used and that's his recreation where he looked at, he heard famous songs and popular songs and went who actually know what precept that is and all of you who are producers. I'm sure you've had this moment where like you recognize really basic stuff that you use in, like professional triple a works like if you ever, ever use superior drummer, I'm sure that's just ruined a rock music for you because it's been in pretty much every professionally made metal song rock song and since its inception like that's just been around forever, but by that I mean the inception of superior drummer not to believe the and then I remember one time it was a trailer for evil dead remake the new evil dead and there's just a making factory massive free set in there like as the sound now I also had a very sort of elitist nature about this I used to be all like no, no process we've gotta do everything yourself making from scratch because and that's like that had that was magic for a while, but then I realized that unless you're a producer, you probably don't even know what that is and actual music listeners or people who watch the movies have zero est idea what that is so it's actually a lot smarter if you're somebody that's generating music for like commercial purposes to use that kind of stuff because that means you're not wasting time but I mean it's up to you to use what you want to use to make the music you want to make that's all there is to that I I like doing things the hard way, which is we're learning all the basic ideas of synthesis and that kind of stuff comes into play could be a really long time to get to where I am not that it needs to take you that long either um I want to point out that when I started learning how to stuff youtube didn't exist imagine a road without that that was a problem um so learning the stuff now definitely a lot easier and also I'm fairly certain creative why didn't exist back then created by offering so many things for learning that just take make everything so much faster police of which my own class that I did for creative life so presets though it's it's really kind of funny and I on the sphere presents in every tv show ever and it's almost like cripplingly genius of them touches do that and shamelessly just do that and again I use the term as if it was some kind of a problem but I have to remember marine myself that not everybody wants everything away and that's an important thing to take from that as well is also just not to not like kill yourself over stuff that you can do without trying super hard and there was also there's a lot of a lot of the stuff a lot of the flames were in phaser stuff and they filter step even like the sound the sound that I made that's this example sound was the fever curious was done by piling on a bunch of thiss automation control the band bass this is two notches and then it's another man pass and two notches and they're kind of all doing different things and that whole like layering and piling on and different things aspect was something that was totally foreign to me the first time that I saw someone do that which actually, I could tell you that was frequent. Who sort of explained that to may, which is really funny because he was, like, fifteen when they find it today. And he makes some with the gnarliest stuff ever. You should look him up. Frequent the word it's pretty easy to find. Um, the, uh I just got to flabbergasted by that to remember my point, working with him was really a big exit. Six words fail me. They failed me about it. Um, and then hillary something that really think now that I do that now that I know that I have to say the sound, I understand the feeling of it. And I also do it, like really, really fast it's like it's ingrained part of my my work flow now. And it used to be something that was just such a problem. Such an issue, and then just drilled out, and then it's not anymore. And I again I get I get the feeling that this this workshop is presented in such a way that people have hopes and such that private telephone, that I didn't have to do that, that you didn't have to make it about drilling and learning and doing things, but that there was some kind of secret. And the secret is that you need to drill things and learn things and that you know all the things, and then you'll be the one that creates the several people want to recreate because he just have a command of it all, and I also want to point out that my particular method for learning these things in a very analytical way, clinical way, is not super duper creative, and what I mean by that is it is very much about about learning, like the parameters of the science and old boy, the science, especially if you're going to have families, a lot of there's, a lot of math involved, that I didn't think I'd have to do ever again after I got out of high school, but there's some things about that that they give, you really know your stuff, that you have some real power about it, but is super duper, not creative? It's not really conducive to just, like, flowing with sound design, that kind of thing, which I saw a lot of people, people with workshops here, even the displaying things and showing things that, wow, I could like to sort of analyze what they're doing, and they think about how I would have done it. I would never have just done that with my knowledge that I have that's, not how I'm wired, so sort of. Be careful about that. Because then, if you, if you spend all your time trying to recreate stuff like like I have a plan, which all he went to being good for is making videos about how to tell other people how to make stuff. They want to make it. Sorry. Hey, don't do that. Then do it.