Understanding the Framework
So let's, let's move on, I want to talk about the framework, and what we're talking about is how you get people to trust you. How do you get people on board and remember, this is a technology, emails, the technology, but these are the principles these were the techniques that were going to use that, as far as I can tell, have always worked in business, they've always worked in marketing and marketing is not me pushing an agenda, it's helping an idea a worthy idea spread because not great ideas don't need to be spread, and I don't think anybody here is interested in that, and I tend to think that often the best ideas are the ones that tend to spread in the mediocre ones don't, but there are a lot of good ideas out there that could use a nice boost, and email is a great way to do that, so what we're talking about is basically what seth godin calls permission marketing permission. Marketing, he says, is the privilege, not the right of delivering anticipated personal and relevant messages ...
to people who actually want to get them so a little story every week I come home from work on like a tuesday afternoon, and there is a little yellow package in my driveway, and in that little yellow bag is a newspaper, and in that newspaper is god knows what because I never open it to read it because I didn't ask for it I didn't subscribe to it I didn't pay for it nobody told me it was coming I don't want it it is a free newspaper and I don't have time for it and so what happens is I drive over that stupid thing and I go get dinner and I drive back and I go to work the next day and I drive over about a half a dozen times and then six or seven days later I throw this mangled piece of paper and plastic that's all kind of melded together at this point away this has happened for two years ever since we moved in her house I have never opened a single newspaper I feel bad about it but I don't have time to read something that I didn't ask for because I didn't pay for it I don't really value it and I never gave anybody permission to start dropping pieces of paper on my driveway but the problem is that this newspaper is probably already paid for by advertisers and so there aren't any they don't need subscription costs there aren't any you know some costs into it because they've sort of, you know met their quota they're you know they're not in the red probably business wise and they're just trying to deliver this to you in hopes of you one day opening it finding value in it and who knows buying something in an ad or subscribing to you know, the daily paper I don't know I don't really understand the business model all I know is they don't care and the thought is if this shows up enough people will start reading it and this is sort of the old way of thinking about advertising and marketing is if I show up enough if I interrupt you enough, you will eventually pay attention does that work ladies? Does that work when it when a guy wants to date you? I just I think of it as the george costanza effect. Have you ever watched sign film there's this episode we're costanza is trying to get with this girl and and he just won't leave her alone and he keeps calling her and leaving messages and he's trying to just be wherever she is he's using this marketing idea that if I just keep showing up enough that she'll eventually want to date me and, you know, funny, it would works and he like he leaves messages on her answering machine and as a little jingle is co stanza and and she can't get out of her head and eventually she goes on a date with him this is the costanza effect well, as you know, seinfeld is an old show it doesn't work anymore probably didn't want it then and as marketers we've got to think more creatively we're gonna think more ethically this doesn't work there are smarter ways to get that great content in that newspaper to me and just throwing it on my drive what isn't the way to do it so what you do need is you need a permission marketing framework he need a three step process by which you get people on board with what you have to say, what you have to sell and what you have to share and if you do that you will have people eagerly waiting for your e mails you will have people eagerly waiting for hey it's time to buy this from me the craziest thing about what I do is people ask me for opportunities to pay me to to do things for them so you know, I I teach an online course kind of like this and I only opened it up a few times a year and a soon as I close it down we closed registration down I have people literally emailing me I want to pay you money sorry you can't pay any money right now you have to wait I mean it's crazy I know what I'm doing well, maybe you could pay me money um but it's it's amazing what permission will allow you to do so there are these three characteristics in this new kind of marketing and as I said really this is stuff that has always worked what we talk about is the old way of doing marketing and advertising really that was born not out of centuries old business practices business has always been done like it was done and you know small town where I grew up in a northern illinois of eleven hundred people where you know a guy and they recommend this service or we know joe you know the bartender and so we go and and you know pay pay him are our money versus you know over there because we like him we trust him we know him this is the way business has always been done but ever since nineteen nineteen fifties nineteen sixties with the birth of mass media there was this season in the world where if you put a bunch of aunts and television through a bunch of stuff into magazines because this was we never really had mass media before we never had the ability to reach almost everybody all at once because there were three stations on tv so there's a good chance you're going to reach people with your message and it worked for a while but in the grand scheme of humanity of human history people have always built things on trust on relationship on us knowing each other and liking one another so there are three characteristics is kind of marketing that we're going to talk about that predate tv that predate the internet and fortunately, they're becoming some of the most powerful ways to connect with and communicate with people. The first characteristic is permission and permission is let's. Think about this dating analogy again, permission is me asking a girl on a date and you have the opportunity to say yes or no. And if you say no it's over like there's there's no constand's effect going on. I don't interrupt you, the deal's done and I try to go find another date. But if you say yes, we take one step forward. Now, if we go on a date and I proposed to you, that might not work. So what has to happen is there has to be kind of this gradual process of continually getting mohr and more permission. You go on one date, they say, hey, this was fun. Let's, do it again. This is what we want to do with our email newsletters. We want to get permission to first communicate with people in the first place, and then we want to get ongoing permission to keep going. So what that looks like practically is you want to make a promise and the promises something like if you give me your email list, I will send you a weekly newsletter tip on these five things, how to take better photos city five tips on how to take better photos or I'll send you the top three deals that we have on kayaks this week or you know whatever it is it can be anything it doesn't have to be just information it can be information about whatever they are find value in but it has to be a promise it has to be something that I'm going to do this for you you do this for me I'm going to do this for you much like a date um would you like to go on a date? Yes ok well I'm going toe come to your house at eight o'clock I'm gonna pick you up we're going to go to a movie and a promise that I won't kidnap you that parts probably implicit unless you have some sort of track record that you know, we probably shouldn't talk about going to make a promise and then you're going to sweeten the deal and I think this is important it's not essential but it is important you want to offer a piece of bait and what that means. I don't really know how this maybe this is where the analogy breaks down because I don't know that this would work in dating we'd like to go on a date with me here's a candy bar or by the way I'm rich but it's but it's something that we're like there there's a little bit of hesitancy and you helped them overcome their skepticism because we are thinking along the lines of this is another message in my inbox this is more advertising than I don't maybe want and so I want to know that you're trustworthy and one of the ways you get people to trust you is you give them an immediate sign up bonus and we'll talk a little bit more about what that looks like later but think about that mine was an e book there are incidents where you could use a just a short little downloadable here's a list of resource is here's a bunch of links were kind of doing that with this creative live class where if you sign up for the take it home, whatever whatever that you call it where unlimited access to it you get these other things those air sign up bonuses it sweetens the deal on then lastly, in the process you want to capture information, I want to make a promise sweetened the deal with bait and then want to capture their information for simple I mean, all of that happens on a little email sign up form on your website uh sign up for my weekly newsletter tips on this this and this I will never spam you there's a promise by the way, when when you join, you're going to get a free downloadable resource kit and tree mail here to get started today that's what asking permission looks like that's the first step that is not the end all be all the problem is a lot of people stop there you need to take it to the next step which is dates two three four five moved through one hundred and that is what we call building trust this is the second characteristic you need to have trust and what that looks like is going a lot of first stage consented for a lot of e mails I don't have your trust yet until I've consistently delivered on my promise and you go ok like you're the real deal I get it you're not just another spammer you're not just trying to sell me or you're not just sending me irrelevant information that's kind of where things broke down with the newspaper is I never really asked for it and even if I did ask for it there's no trust I don't know where this is coming from I don't know who this person is on dso there's just there's no connection and it takes time to build trust takes time to build towards of marriage proposal so how do we build trust? First thing you have to do is you have to deliver on your promise have to do what you said you're going to do if you promised one email a week and you're sending ten you didn't do that so you're not going to build trust that way second thing you have to do is add value so it doesn't matter so much what you say or even necessarily how you say it what matters is that there's value and I don't decide what value is I as thesent er of the message don't decide what the value is us the risky for dio and this is an ongoing process of I offer information I see what resonates and then if I'm a smart communicator of a smart marketer I'm going to chase that a little bit I'm going to continue to deliver on the things that people find value in when we bring tim on he's going to talk about the things that you can measure to understand what that looks like how do you find what people are valuing? What do you measure but it's important that I'm adding value and in order to know that I'm adding value there has to be some sort of feedback where people are replying or they're clicking or they're taking action I know that there's value there and if there's not value that all I'm doing is sending information I'm not really trading trust it's like going on a date but you didn't have a good time and you keep going on the day that's an arranged marriage it's not it's not dating and we're talking about dating and lastly you want to build anticipation and so what this means is they can't wait to see you again they can't wait to hear from you again think about when you went out a great date with somebody and you couldn't wait to see that person again. You couldn't wait for him to call or for orderto accidentally run into her in the cafeteria for the thirteenth time that week I'm not speaking from experience you can't wait to see that person a good relationship there's some anticipation to it there's excitement, there's butterflies, this's the kind of trust that you want to have with your customers with your readers with the people who want to hear from you build anticipation and the way that you do that really is by not giving away everything you have to say all at once, giving away a little snippet of it a little tidbit so I may have one hundred things that I want to talk about and howto uh make your church a better place for worship music, but here's number one I want to start there and next week I'm going to do about north to build anticipation. The last characteristic in this framework is conversion this is when we get people to do stuff because if if people have given us permission if they trust us but it's kind of that's where we've, we've stopped that's where we've ended then we haven't really fully explored the possibilities here and I'm not just talking about money but obviously sells is one part of conversion getting people to convert what I'm talking about is getting people to act because if you have people reading your messages and opening your newsletters but they're not talking about it, they're not sharing with friends they're not going your block when you say there's a new block post, they're not buying your products when you have a new product come out something's broken here there's not anticipation there's not really trust you know there's there's not really engagement and so what we want to do as we that after we've asked permission or building trust is we want to find small ways to offer opportunities to convert them to the next level, whatever that is and that could be a simple as come, you know, go click this to check out this new video I posted. All you want to know is that when you ask people to do stuff, you do it and if you don't have that, then you don't have a business and I don't think you have much of a tribe you don't have much of a following if people show up in here you speak and they don't tell other people about it or their lives aren't changed in some way something's not working something's broken you know we have somebody online. Kevin cunningham, who speaks a bit to this issue, is saying that he gets hey gets discouraged when he apps that you say clicks to download a free download and then when he clicks it, he's asked tio enter his subscription info on and he understands that that's marketing and they need to do it, but sometimes it kind of puts him off. Yeah when he's going to read a list? Yep, so go go get the three download oh, by the way, in your email address, yeah, yeah, I think that the way to overcome that and it really depends on your audience because some people don't have a problem with that and some people do. So for kevin, I'm like, I'm like that where I'm a little bit skeptical, I don't I think my audiences like me and not everybody's like me, but I want to reach people who are like me because I'm so likable um and so I want to do things that I would feel good about, you know, he did say the first thing he wrote here was please encourage people to be clear in their offer and I think that in and of itself might fix this the situation you know what what I do is I give some things away for free, no strings attached because I just here's something that I created I just want you to have and then there are other things where instead of saying download this free thing oh, by the way, I need your email address another way to say that is I sort of the new side of this is how I did I have an email newsletter all I do is give away free information on this there's value here is kind of the implication, but when you sound for my email newsletter list, you're automatically going to get this free thing and that's just a thank you so there's two ways to do it one way is kind of the bait and switch and it works and if it works for your tribe, go ahead and use it where you say down a list of everything oh, by the way need your email list but what we talked about was doing it in this order promise offer capture so senate for my free email newsletter list because there's value here I think it's good to lead with that because you're not going to keep giving them free stuff every week or every day so at a certain point they is this worth my time I got this free e book or whatever but I'm not going to stay engaged so I think it's good offer what you have to deliver on a consistent basis the newsletter so offer the newsletter then sweeten the deal with basic I just want to thank you for signing up here's a free thing well by the way I will need your email address that's one way to overcome that that's a good question and we have a lot of artists in the chat room and they're brainstorming on you know ways tio give tio their tribe or their future tribe andare inspired by others for instance, one of our chatters says that they're inspired by an artist that gives a free download of music so and to that point what is what is the best way for someone in a niche such as an artist or a pastor to go and find inspiration for that right kind of offer? How do you how do you what do you recommend? I think the best way to deliver anything of value to your audience whether it's free or paid is to ask them and and that is congee implicit or explicit you can come out and say, what do you want from me? And that works if people are tuned in or it can kind of come about over time where you put stuff out there and you go you know, like it seems to me that when I write about this on my block or I talk about it on facebook or even a tweet about it, I get the most engagement there and so I'm going the chance that this is the thing that people want to hear from me about and I'm going to create a resource around this I I asked, I asked my audiences and what do you want from me? And I had started to build a small audience, but it hadn't fully matured into what it wass but had enough people, and I think everybody has enough people in their lives that are tuned in to what you're saying, even just friends of yours that you could ask somebody and say, what do you value? What do I have to offer? Because the truth is a lot of times we undervalue what we offer and or we kind of we talk about the things that we're most excited about, while forgetting that, you know, the best things that we have are often the most obvious things that we downplay, and I've learned time and time again that the things are obvious to us are not obvious to other people and that's why? I think you've been called to share the message that you have that you have something important to say because it's not obvious to everybody, because in your own way, you are an expert at that thing, so when we're talking about conversion, uh, there three steps to that process is, well, first you wantto ask people what they want, as I said anyone from creating a free e book to your first product to trying to get a bunch of people in your coaching program or come to your storefront to buy you won't find out what they want from you. This is essential in a permission marketing relationship. What can I do for you? This is service, and you can do this through survey you can do this just by sending out an email. I love sending out an email to people saying, what are you struggling with? If you don't know what? Um, you know what your audience needs from you sent an email that says what he's struggling with reply here? Very simple. You don't have the log in and we're gonna take fifteen minutes your time and you're gonna get a free gift card at the end, none of that tell me what you're struggling with. People could take five seconds or fifty minutes, and and it'll give you a really good pulse on what people need from you and once you know that you go build that thing, you go off for that and you go, oh my gosh, I already have this, I don't know anybody wanted it, I need to put this out there, you're gonna ask, then you're going to offer whatever this resource, whatever this thing is. And then you're going toe close, and we're going to talk about that more in the sales section but ask, offer close any time you're converting anything from go click this link to tell me what your favorite color is to buy my product or service right now you're gonna ask, offer close, you're going to ask people to check it out and you're going to offer them something of value, and then at some point you're going toe you're going to say, ok, like, you need this, and if you don't get this now, something really bad is gonna happen not exactly that way, but there needs to be some sort of sense of if I don't get this now, then I'm really missing out and that's part of closing, so I want to close with a seth godin quote, we started one and I love seth if you don't follow him online or encourage you to do that, you can google the name seth. He literally wrote the book on this process of this framework. We're talking about permission marketing, you could go to permission dot com and you can download it ah, third of it for free, and you'll never get an email after it, which is a great example of permission marketing is he's giving away a third of the book which is like fifteen years old and he's never sent an email to that list afterwards because the whole point is to just give you this content anyway seth says this if it sounds like you need humility and patients to do permission marketing you're right that's why so few companies do it properly the best short cut in this case is no shortcut it all this is important because if the sounds tough if it sounds hard if it sounds like a lot of work just to sell a stink and product because it is but it's also very very powerful and this is the difference between a one percent conversion rate in a fifty percent conversion right this is the difference between having to get a million people to read your blog's so that you can get a thousand to buy versus tenth out people or five hundred people read your blogged and have just a cz many people buy so what we're talking about is we want engaged followers we want a tribe we want a group of people that trust us that like what we have to say and are willing to go wherever we want to lead them and that's what permission is all about so to review the framework again get permission build that trust convert that audience and ultimately what you have is uh you have a spouse you ask him on a date you start dating and then you get married and and that's that's, what happens and that's really what's happening with your audience is you're inviting them into a relationship. Taking them through this process is going to build trust with that with them, and then ultimately you're saying let's, take this deeper and the cool thing about it is it's not just a matter of by this thing, it's a matter of I'm doing this, would you like to be more involved in it? I'm launching a book who would help me spread the word about this. We're doing a big, you know, outdoor canoeing thing, who's who's in it's fun, it's exciting all of a sudden, this message that you've been burden to share people are listening, people are paying attention that's really, really powerful, and I can't imagine doing it without an email list it's been really great as you've been speaking, we've got conversations going on in the chat rooms with everybody giving each other advice time capsule came up with a great suggestion, which he said, if you, if you're on facebook, you look at facebook post look at the ones that received the most likes their shares then focus in on that topic if that's your audience. The audience is obviously already liking that type of content to focus in on that, which I thought was a great idea that's powerful, absolutely that gretchen rubin, who wrote the happiness project just over a million copies number one year comes a best seller for a million years that's how she does a lot of research with her audience that's how she determines what she's going to write her next book about as she goes to our facebook page and she's throws out an idea or says, I'm struggling with this. Is anybody else dealing with this, or what problem are you having? And people respond people like and in the things that tend to resonate, she goes deeper with those I love. I love this isn't like a email or social media class. I think social media many ways complement the power of the email list, but when it comes to getting people to take action, I love email because that's, that's a way that you build trust with people that can't be taken away. So if mark zuckerberg decided tomorrow that I had to pay lots of money to reach my audience on facebook, I would have to pay because I don't control that medium, I do control my email list, I own that. And even if I use another service, I own that list, I can export it, aiken imported, I can take it with me. I can have a little black book of all the email subscribers I own that I don't all my facebook page or might my twitter profile like I own my email lists and so it is an asset in that sense that it grows in value and the longer you have it, the more trust you build, the more it's worth to you. You know, when you were talking about courting your tribe, that made me think of you, pierre a and all the experience that you have, I want to turn to you guys for a minute to see if you have any things coming up. Any questions, any comments? I was thinking about that, too? Yeah, just the process there's a there's, a little fear and that when somebody's asking because there's always a fear of rejection from myself, we just went through christmas. So were we send out all these christmas cards hard copy by stand so I have a list, but when you're talking about building a list, I don't want to send certain material to all of my uncles, aunts, neighbors, whoever so how do you know? Who you're going to ask and you know, get over that fear to who you're going to ask in terms of what's up then too you have to join you and you know what? You have to get provide. Yeah, well, I think that there's there's two ways to do that the first is the organic way you've got something that you've been talking about it's this business idea it's this a book it's this thing that you've been working on for years and everybody goes, you really need to do that you need to start that business, you need to go write that book that's an easy ask you guys okay? I finally did it I was scared, but here it is and you know that you have people ready to support you that's one way to do it the other way to do it is maybe you don't have that I didn't really have that I mean, I had my wife you said when you could write that book and said, oh no, no, no on dh she was my biggest fan and champion, but beyond that, nobody not a lot of people were cheering for me because I wasn't really writing very much and sharing it it was this hobby that I had that I was really scared to share and so I found the people that I was going to ask in anonymity, I found them online, I just started writing on my blogged and started writing this stuff that I wanted to share, but have been really scared, too. And then I started finding the people with whom that message resonated the way I like to put it is, you know, there are over seven billion people in the world now, and I grew up hearing this saying you're one in a million, you know? And this is like a really nice way of saying you're super special, you're beautiful, unique snowflake. The problem is seven billion people is a lot of people, and all of a sudden a million becomes a pretty small number. Like I said, I'm not very good at math, but if I'm one in a million and there are seven billion people in the world, then that means there's something like, if I'm wrong, because I'm not good at the numbers seven thousand people in the world just like me and my wife would say one one is plenty, uh, but all of a sudden you realize the world is so big and it is now very flat, it is not hard for me to connect with people that are just like me who believe what I believe, who think what I think and who want what I want, and so if it's scary toe ask you know aunt sue our uncle joe I'm sure those are really uncles and the aunts and your family maybe you don't maybe you put the message first and then you find the tribe that's going to support the message because the cool thing about the world about the internet and about how easy it is to connect with people like we're doing right now all over the world is it's more about the message and finding the people that are going to believe in the message that it is finding people and then trying to give them a message they want to hear yeah so going further with courtship it almost sound like blind dating now which is a a fear right and like don't date your friend's because there's a risk of running that friendship so if I'm hearing you correctly go into the anonymity try a little blind dating see what happens there and if any of your friends come along that would probably be a better risk and in this I think so okay yeah that's that's what I did I put my stuff out there and sometimes you know our biggest supporters aren't the ones closest to us especially with with what you're trying to dupe era it's it's something that you know you've been thinking about and wrestling with and it sounds like it's time and the last thing that I want you to do is wait for everybody in your life to be on board with this thing for you to have permission to go do it because the truth is people need your message now, and what I have found is those closest to you sometimes are the last to get onboard with it just because they know you well and this new idea that has been rolling around your head for years. Um, you just never talked about it? I didn't. And so it wasn't their fault. It was just I was scared and I had to go on a blind date say, to meet somebody else's that really resonates with me before I was comfortable sharing it with family and friends. Sometimes it takes a stranger to affirm your passion before you're willing to share it with, you know, the people that you love most have terry, I keyed in on the concept of the promise on day I think that is so critical because recently I find content that I'm interested in. I give my email address and now I've got all this email that I have to start unsubscribe ing to, and that is so frustrating. Yeah, yeah, it is frustrating, and the challenge for the communicator is everybody's different, you know, I hear people say you're not going to be a bunch of email. Well that depends like what's a bunch to you I get e mails from some people that's I mean email every day and I'm ok with that because there's a lot of value and that's they promised they said you're going to get an email every day and then I get some newsletters from people every week or every other week or month and that's ok to the point is you just want to be up front with what you're offering andi I learned this because I'm a people pleaser and I want everybody to like me um I learned this the hard way where I kept changing the frequency of the newsletter it's weekly its monthly its daily it's every hour because everybody was telling me something different I want this and I want this and it's hard because when you start reaching more of a mass audience it's impossible to please everybody so what you have to say is up front here is what I'm about are you in and then people can choose in and out of that and sometimes people subscribing unsubscribe and re subscribe once went to a conference where I spoke and I ran into this lady in line and she says oh you're jeff I read your newsletter and like all thanks so much that's really great and I also got a fan you know this is great I'm sort of get fans is pretty cool they'll sign something for her I have a baby that I could kiss and she goes I just have one thing that I wanted to ask you okay sure yeah penn on and she says could you not send me so much email and I was like and my heart sunk because I was like what do I do? I promise it is one person you know and these other ten thousand people I'm sorry I have to change it because she she wants less email and and sometimes is weird like I've had people say can you just let me these types of messages and yeah you khun segment things and do you know use the technology to a certain extent but the answer for me is no I'm sorry I can't do that and if that means jeff dunn subscribe I totally understand but this is what works for me this is what works for a lot of my audience and I've got to stick to that cause I made a promise to them talking about the building trust stage and I'm sure we'll probably get to this a little bit more later but um so when you're dating someone do you have like a playbook where you go always to your favorite restaurant and then do your next favorite thing? In other words are you like do you drop them into like sort of a non boarding drip campaign at the beginning or you just plopping them right into um there with your weekly e mails that you're sending out that week I'm a big fan of of the auto responder drip campaign we'll talk more about that tomorrow we talk about keeping your list healthy one of the first things that you want to do is you want to orient people that what you're about there are probably some exceptions to that where you know if you've got like a deal of the day email newsletter or I'll mention an example later on with daily lit dot com which is a really cool website where you can subscribe to get free like classic fiction books and they send you a little chunk of that the email every day I just got my second installment of warren peace out of five hundred eighty four uh that's precious part one but you know that doesn't really require here's what daily lit is about I mean, you know, a confirmation email would be fine, but I think in most circumstances where we have some sort of message that we're trying to communicate and there's something that you want to orient your audience to I think that's really important and the best way to determine that is you don't have to fear that all at once you know it's beginning if you find yourself saying this same things over and over again like these concepts are issues that I always teach then you go you know, like there should be there should be something about this in the orientation emails in the first few emails that people get and if I can automate that in a way where I don't have to keep saying the same things over and over again every week or every day or every month, whatever frequency you choose, then you know, the best way to do that is to use like a drip campaign and if you don't want a drip campaign as we'll talk about that more but it's basically a series of messages that everybody gets no matter when they sign up yeah, I really appreciate sort of the mind shift that you've given me in terms of this being more about connection and less about, like automation and more sterile email sort of information that it's that's more of a two way street than a one way street it really appreciate this morning for that? Cool, thanks. Yeah, you know, the tools always change. We were just talking in preparation for this class, talking about how technology has changed just in the past six months and how some of your e mails are now getting filtered. You know, by gmail, for example, so the technology is always changing, so how do we stay up with that? I try to I try to pay attention how the tools are evolving, cause that's a important but what's most important to me is the connection that you're making with a real human being and we sometimes forget that when we're sitting in front of a computer that there's somebody on the other side whom I'm connecting with and that connection is important that's primary the tool is just a means to that connection so I think we're going to talk about the tools the next session we're going to go through exactly how to get set up and how to get started and and we're going to get a little geeky for those of you who want to get your geek on totally cool but I think this is primary this is about people, people that robots are reading your e mails and so it's important that we understand how to effectively communicate with them yeah so in a greater sense we're building relationships, right? Yeah, I mean ones or yeah, yeah, but but that but that whole idea of a relationship this is a relationship to travelers someone it's not just a blast of words you're sending out our piece of junk mail that you're dealing with a person on the air like you said on the other end? Well, try you're a great example of that because I think you're here because you're on the email list and I said, hey, look at this thing that I'm doing and you said I know him trust him, and I'd love to be a part of that, and you drove quite a waste to get here. You got about four o'clock in the morning. I mean, that that speaks volumes, you know, that wouldn't have happened. I don't think without the connection that we made that started with an email, right?