Networking: Who, What, When, Where and Why
Okay, so networking right who what when, where and why we've got to understand the value and importance of networking and while you were off I know you were watching offstage people were asking, you know, how do we break into the schools? How do we break into the catering halls? And this is where networking comes into play, so pay attention in this segment ask good questions because we'll tell you everything we've done I think we're really good at this is one of those things where we know how tio be persistent people love us in our area. So whether it's the yearbook advisor at the high school, the catering manager at the reception halls they love working with us because of the way that we network and so they send us a lot of brides well, I mean to that point the yearbook advisor for belleville east we just photographed her wedding and so prior to that I wasn't even on the list she didn't even know me. And so once we got on that list were persistent with her. Who did she come to when it...
was time to hire a wedding photographer? She hired us. None of the other studios were on that list, and today the catering manager of the four seasons hotel called me because her son's a senior at one of the high schools that we photograph so we're doing her us on senior pictures for free of course on we're going to network that relationship and there you go so that's how networkings done high level it never ends were always doing it we do I don't mind doing that photo shoot for free she was very grateful fortune and even expected for free but that's how we're work continuing toe work those relationships s o that we have continued success we never rest we never stop. We never take our clients are relationships for granted and I think that's an important lesson learned so as we start talking about the who gonna let you drive some of this on my my step out of your way. So because selling I focused a lot on seniors and weddings, you'll see that this is going toe apply to that jonah, for the most part, but you can apply this to any line of business. So as faras vendors go, whenever we were trying to market towards families a little bit more, it was the toy stores. It was the doctor's offices, it was the it was the lawyers, the realtors, things like that. So for vendors network with dress shop so that's one of the first things the bride wants to do is pick out a dress, and if you're networking with those dress shops, you're going to be first on their list too well let's talk more about the dress shops right now I want to fly through these so if we talk about dress shops in our relationships when we're working on our portfolio do you want to have that ninety nine dollars david bridal stress or do you wanna have a very nice multi thousand dollar gown while because of the relationships we have with these dress shops and being persistent and providing them imagery they let us pick whatever dress is we want to use for our workshop so whenever people come shoot with us in london or vancouver for a two day workshop they're using some of the best dresses out there and we're getting them for free from this dress shop because we're giving the dress shop free images from the session and then we're also putting their flyers in our bridal packets giving that directly to our brides there's a lot of great networking going on and translate that to your business how do you translate that today and go back and make some of this stuff happened if you go to the dress shop how does how does the conversation happened? Because I don't want you to believe for a minute that every dress shop you walk into you're gonna be able to develop that relationship with so when you go in there you're making phone calls you're stopping by ham a photographer here not a business card let them see your website I'm bill, I'm working on some portfolio shots I would love to feature one of her dresses in return. Here's what I'm willing to do, I'll give you free prince portrait's for your wall so that you can use in your marketing and advertising, or using your booth so here's networking again. And how many layers deep it goes. The bridal shops that we work with when they go to the bridal shows guess what's on display in their booth, our pictures. And so now our logo are pictures at the bridal show. So it's not enough that the bride gets to the bridal show sees our booth it's not enough that the broad gets to the bridal shows he's taylor on multiple monitors, then seize our works in the in the apple lounge, then now is walking through the bridal show and everywhere she goes, salvatore loiacono, salvatore loiacono salvatore sing cotter, whether it's catering halls, dress shops, that is the ultimate, I think in networking, and that started five years and something you can do to figure out how to connect with specific vendors is ask your bride's a questionnaire where they get their their dress from their shoes, that who's there cater who's there deejay, so that after the wedding, if you grab pictures of all these different things, you can send those pictures directly to that vendor with your local on them, of course telling them I'm happy toa give these to use for your website for your marketing, for your eye portfolio. We love to establish a relationship with you so that we can refer brides to each other. Our brides are constantly asking us for advice on who to look to for different services. And we love working with you and your company. Uh, would you like to schedule lunch sometime? Something like that. So that establishes that relationship vendors love us because as soon as our bride see their wedding pictures, I automatically send them pictures that air that air of their service or their products from that wedding. So it's, like two weeks later they have actual pictures, other photographers, they never send pictures, maybe a year or two later. And to that point, I'm actually horrible at it. So this was one of those things where the vendor images used to sit on my plate, right? Mai I owned it might kind of fly zone, but now it's my no fly zone because the truth is I was horrible at it. I never did it, she would nag me to death on them, we'd fight about it right now, all the things that go on, so now she owns it, so now she keeps that list she's talking about the wedding's over and within two weeks now our vendors are getting those images with our watermark on them and they're so grateful that we're turning them around so clear, so easy just in light room our clients come into view their pictures in light room and then after they leave I just go through and select all the different pictures that I know are relevant to the vendors in light room and then we have an export preset for it's like a facebook setting so their web ready files with their logo on him so I just exporting directly from their create folders reach fender and then what transfer we transfer the files were directly to that vendor with a message from me so that can all be done in two hours and it costs you nothing yeah that's brilliant and then of course uh caterers florists, right? We're networking seeing process taking them out to lunch I'm gonna revert back teo randy who's big flores and we worked with in st louis and things we've done for him is we photographed his his stuff we give him tons of referral business, we've photographed our video a testimonial for him for his, you know, floral shop and so these are the kind of things you want to keep doing with that relationship I'm telling about everything we're doing for him am I not? And so I'm not talking about what I'm asking him for its all about what I can do for him and it's all those relationships and keep trying tio give back to them and that's ultimately what's gonna lead two referrals you can't just go to a vendor and be like, can you refer me? Why why would I want to refer? You will start the conversation with how do I get on your vendor list, right that's not what we're looking for it won't work right? They're going to think about how many people are asking them over and over again to be on their on their vendor list uh, you know what about prom like prom dresses, those kinds of vendors so in your town, if you with the high school seniors there's always those stores where the kids are going for their prom dresses and more than likely with high school seniors, you're photographing them in those prom dresses. So the same concept applies to the prom dress shops, local boutique shops that you can now start networking with and getting your point of sale. Why couldn't you create one of these right four by six flyers and it doesn't matter, but this is just a five by seven card why couldn't this be it the point of sale of the prom dress and say get fifty percent off your session fee right why could not be there for them so this that's something that you should develop this relationship with it's not just about they're not going to refer you a dress shop is gonna be like hey, if you're looking for tiger you should books out which are looking for them a jew is give you some real estate on the wall showcase your prints, your logo and then maybe a point of sale uh in exchange you give them free pictures of the girls in their dresses to use his displays in their shop right and then of course planners saying the same thing network with planners and I will tell you you've heard me say it before I cannot stand working with planners there's uh I mean I just can't lie about it I can't be like planners are great I cannot stand working with them they get in the way they don't know what they're doing half the time but there is a handful of planners that we absolutely love on these air planners that get what we do they understand what they do and they understand that being a planner doesn't mean that you're just barking orders all day so but you know, so really what you're looking for is for them to understand you want to work with planners that understand that yourjob is one of many jobs that day and understand that their job is to just kind of coordinate ever nothing right? And so we've worked with planners who get it we love those planners and we go out of our way to refer those planners and vice versa we wantto work with those points we're looking for referrals back from them and then there's planners that when we see their name as part of the equation we try to stay away from them a cz much as possible so you'll figure it out on your own over time but it's a curse and a blessing at the same time what about other photographers talk about your industry with your photographers I think we can all be so closed off to sharing information with each other um and it's exactly what sal and I run into in our own community so we've tried doing like get togethers, coffees, dinners you see clear what we're talking about here we're talking about networking with other photographers in your local community I don't know about you guys but out there do you ever feel isolated like no one wants to share information and your local community you're shunned, you know from everyone or they look down on you because you're a newbie, those kinds of things we've got to break down some of those barriers, you know and we try to in our local community but it's really, really tough to give it the time into deserves but go ahead now we tried doing like drinks and dinners and just talking about the industry our area what issues are we facing now what's working for people for marketing what's not what are you just talking challenges are you facing challenges just making friends I mean we're in an industry together and every other industry people are friends even if their competitors but it seems like photographers were so closed off and paranoid that we tend to just shut people out and there's really no need for that as you're seeing from up here we're teaching everyone for free because we definitely believe that there's a client's for everybody right why would we not want to be friends with you guys like honestly like I think teo what I'm trying to figure out and the only thing I can come up with is why you would want to be my friend right now his wife too much talks too much she talks way too much you can't get a word you know? So you know we find that in our local community people I think uh the newbies in our community absolutely love us so the new photographer's coming up absolutely love us we have a great relationship with them they'll just stop by our studio it's kind of the weirdest thing in the world will swing by or if they see me on a photo shoot they'll be like hey so how's elyan created five so it's kind of cool to see that happening, but the old school photographers that are in our community yes not stand us at all because we are everywhere we are a threat to them and we're a threat to their business what we're teaching is a threat on that's the kind of thing where we've actually trying to help some of these local photographers when we practice what we preach so we tried sitting down with him and meeting with them, but they're just so close off they're just not open to having relations so you can waste your time there, right? So when your local market find people who are like minded find people who want to help each other, who want to build each other too much in our industry like taylor's talking about it's just people shredding each other and it's like there's really no reason to know what's the outcome, so now you're shredding each other and everybody's bloody and bleeding and you know it's just it's casualties of war, but what positive came out of that there's, another studio in our area? They're called sweitzer film, but they mostly focused on video, but they offer photography is well there very high and the price range right in line with us just a little bit more expensive for video, for video, but we're we're actually really good friends with um I want the house minutes from us, they're coming over if we need help with video production, those guys heir stepping in helping us, we send weddings back and forth of each other's booked and that's the type of network that we're talking about. We tried to create this like google calendar among local photographers, where if one of us is booked, we can look to the google calendar and see who's open and send a wedding their way, but no one wanted to send no way we're sending weddings, everyone but it doesn't matter I mean the good the point is still valid, right? Try and create that referral network and what's becoming more and more common for that. And in st louis we have that as well as theirs. You know there's, a group for st louis photographers and they're passing weddings back and forth to each other all the time though. Okay, I got a referral. Who's opened october first. What a great way to find like second shooter's extra help stuff like that and just send weddings back and forth if they're not gonna book you, they might as well go somewhere why not be a friend that's actually helping you and working with you exactly and that's a great way to find second shooters, we get asked that question all the time how do you find second shooter's? Well, start look, I guarantee you and your local community there's more than likely a facebook group set up for local photographers and if there's not maybe you're the one who should be setting it up and that's how you can have this referral network among each other like hey, I'm looking for a second shooter I'm willing to swap that's actually something that's really big to I mean, the truth is if I were gonna second chute for you I don't need your two hundred fifty dollars that you're gonna pay me to second chute what's more valuable to me would be you helping me when I need a second shooter to shoot more than likely most businesses are going to be in that boat so now that's where you start swapping and trading services with each other so it could be a good thing it's all about making sense all right, so we start talking about the what right? So what are we talking about when we wire what are you gonna talk about when you go to network with these people don't start out just talking business talk personal get to know these people about their lives, their relationships if there is a pause you can you do me a favor just because the way the course has been running we kind of had this conversation around everything newbie intermediate in advance go back man go backto saban away when we were trying to get our first meeting for a network and people weren't returning our phone calls talked to these guys about those days like go back to that how did we start getting these initial meetings that we they just won't even answer our phone call go back to those days you kind of have to be relentless so we kept calling and kept e mailing and hopefully you try and get a meeting that way just by being persistent in trying to offer them something so they were trying to build up hopefully in the area we're new we're starting movinto weddings we love to do some free product shoot for you you have some educator do you have some new food that you need photograph taken to it for you for free can use it for your website you have to give them something in order for them to even sedar meeting with and one of the first vendor venues that we got on the prefer vendor list happened that way so it was a place called the ninth street abbey in st louis it's catering hall now we're kind of not on their preferred vendor listen, the problem is we've out priced ourselves for their typical bribe but at the time when we were starting off it was amazing to get on their list all the girls in the sales room loved us they're referring. Weddings are way like half of our weddings were at that venue here, right? One year half the weddings were there was amazing, but that all came from networking. And the way we did that was we said, hey, what we like to do for our vendors is will photograph your event. So if you have your photograph, your room and provide you imagery for free, just call us whenever you have the room set up in a different way that you want to showcase. And they took advantage of that, they called us. They gave us, like, two days notice we went in on we photographed, you know, took a big, wide shot, edited form, had it to them the next week. And then that relationship blossomed from there, and to this very day they've probably gone through god five to seven new sales reps in that room. But wherever those sales reps have gone in the industry, we still are in contact because they loved us because we treated them so well. So even though they might be at another facility, a more high end facility that's now in a line with our brides, were still working with those same people, now we have a relationship that goes back. Five six years so there if they have to send brides to someone, they're going to send him tow us because of the relationship that we establish exactly right and one of them's now wedding planner that we do love working with her name's jenny and she was at one point of sales were up there went off started her own company now and now we go out of our way to work with her but like taylor alluded to these relationships that go back five years on so this is very, very important stuff that we're talking about here but let's get back into now you get to that meeting go for what are we talking about at that meeting right? Don't go just right into it let's start off by being personal just like you would do it initial wedding consultation you don't start off by going over your price list you try and get to know them establish relationships to do the same thing with your vendors and then talk about business ask about their business don't talk about your business what issues are you running into? What your sales looking like this year? What do you think? I think the current are in upcoming trends are gonna be pick their brain this I mean how much money would you pay to pick ah wedding planners brain about what the future, what trends they're seeing this is really useful information and nothing to pick a winning plan I know you want it and then take care of them whatever they want for free so something we do for our vendors we do free headshots for their team free team shots there's a deejay in st louis called millennium music and we've done their team shots for the last four years, so we'll do a really cool group shot of all of their djs then we'll do individual head shots and we do it for free because they send a lot of weddings our way and vice versa. We sent a lot of weddings their way and we have this great relationship. So now whenever we do a wedding with this deejay company because we do our slide, show it every reception they know exactly what to do there's no bumps there's no, we don't have to explain to them how many songs we'll go you're doing the slide show? Yeah, okay, great. We'll be ready that's it it's perfect. Yeah it's awesome. And then, uh it seem pictures of the event. Like I said, make sure you send the pictures as soon as you can get them in their hands and let them know what they're good to use force I don't just don't send him pictures and whenever I send them the image is there's a letter saying hi this earth these are pictures from a recent event that we had together you're free to use them for your website for your marketing for your portfolio just please don't can them over to the client is there for your use on lee it please let me know if you have any questions or if you'd like to schedule a time to get together same for video cos right, the video cos I don't know if you realize this they're delivering a blue ray dvd on they need an image for the front cover off the dvd so same thing network with them feel free to get them an image and what I do is I like to ensure that I've got copyright on that image even though it's on the cover off there d d k so it's always willing to give me copyright, I'm willing to give him an image if they're not willing to give me copyright, I'm not gonna give him that image to you so again continuing the relationship is very important back and forth. Of course then if you post on facebook or something like that, make sure you tag them or mention them on your block and if you go to our block most of the time you will see where the ceremony was, where the reception wass and if we have a reciprocal relationship with that vendor will also list here's, the deejay that was used it's now the fans on their facebook are coming to our facebook to see the photos that's just a great going back and forth network relationship exactly. All right, when we talked about the when, when when when are we networking? One or two times a year? We try and take our especially our catering manager's out to lunch and not just like any lunch. We take them to a nice lunch, so at least do it once a year, if not twice here, but try and make it during the slow season because no one has time during the busy season, least of all us. Exactly. Well, and you're gonna find that if you start reaching out to these planters in, uh, may june, july, they're probably not gonna respond to you. Even if you do have a relationship with him, they're not gonna respond to you, so don't take it the wrong way. If you're reaching out to them now, let's say, and they're not you're going to go hey sow, they're not responding. Of course not responding. I'm telling you they're not going to, and so the top down time is the same for all of us, so whatever your season is in your local market. When your photographers are busy that means the catering halls are busy, eh? So keep that in mind so january february march uh those are the times you really want to get in there or early november once you get to mid november december it's the holidays people, their minds or someplace else where you talked a little bit about that right? We're gonna take him to launch somewhere nearby sushi no fast food. Yeah think sushi italian sit down. They can order wine if they want to and pay for the lunch for everything. Don't let him reach for the credit card even give the credit card to the waiter as soon as you sit down so no one else can pay that's gonna look really classy for you in your business it's gonna go a long way for them exactly because the catering manager's air usedto having to pay for everyone's launch or any meal so they're not used to somebody taking them out or doing something nice for them. So you definitely want to keep that in mind course the purpose of this networking is to establish a relationship, get feedback like I was saying, ask what trends are singing the industry, what issues there facing you can help each other by going back and forth this way discuss future opportunities on howto work together so we have a relationship with busch stadium, which is where the st louis cardinals play they actually hold events at the stadium weddings and receptions so they have fashion shows every now and then, so we talk about fashion shows about upcoming concerts on the field and them needing photography and video coverage for that, so we'll do this for them and sometimes we charge sometimes we don't just depending on how the relationships going, but it could lead to a lot of future opportunities think if we got to photograph a baseball player because of the relationship that we have this with the stadium jackson don't let those opportunities pass you by even though our relationship might seem small at the time if that sales rep goes to another property that's now high end and that's bringing you a whole different caliber bride, you're going to fall back on that relationship that you established when they might have been nobody and what taylor's alluding to is actually real world these are things that have happened for us where we're dealing with people who have gone from facility facility in the catering world is special in the wedding business, it seems like people are changing jobs every year and a half to two years, so you're trying to keep track consistently with these people, and then of course you want to get feedback from them on what you're doing right? What you're doing wrong it's very important task, because if the catering manager or reception hall you know, wherever you're dealing with doesn't like you, when they find out that your you might be looking at the event, they could actually dissuade a bride or when they find out a bride's potentially looking at you, they could dissuade that bride from booking. We've seen that happen in the past as well. We've booked weddings because the catering hall put a lot of pressure on the bridegroom not to book another photographer asked them, what else can I do for you? What is there anything that I can do to make this relationship easier? Is there something you're saying that we do that you like or that you don't like, ask for open and on it, sit back and take their take whatever they say, right? And then of course, discussing future opportunities, what can we do together and that you're no one's gonna want to have a future opportunity discussion when we're talking about it during let's say, you know, middle season, nobody wants to be bothered with that, but of course what they do want to do is in that january that's when anybody's kind of planning, working together, coming up with ideas, concepts, style I shoot, we have gone in for a hall buy us very high end venue on we they actually decorated the entire ball room so that we could come in and photograph it and we went in and photographed it for free so the florist put flowers had to be thousands of dollars of cost on all the tables they put you know, tablecloth chairs all down because they wanted to showcase their new ballroom and we got to photograph that that was at all the bridal shows logo copyright is on it even in the magazine ads and so that's huge publicity free publicity for us. So why would I not do this for free? I cannot stress that enough and then of course differentiate from competitors your competitors are probably not networking, they're too busy they're too introverted they don't want to be bothered, they don't take anybody out for lunch they don't wanna hustle, right? They just don't have that fire inside them. This is that thing that's going to differentiate you maybe give your vendors christmas gifts handle over those like a bottle of wine. I know the florist that sal keeps mentioning for christmas. He gave me a kate spade purse and sal a bottle of dom perignon like, well, yeah, we're not we're not we're not used to getting gifts from our vendors tow us, but we had referred him a lot of weddings you think we're going to send anyone to another florist again it's not even allowed right? I mean, this is so randy's been an amazing partner to work with and so it's kind of interesting and it's stuff like that that happens and you guys I'm sure we'll have a you know, robby you were sharing with me a client gave you pocket knife is a gift after the wedding when we get that little something from a client right whether it's ah vendor or an actual photography client I'm blown away at how I feel and I always remember that because now I think what is my client feel like when I get them a bottle of wine we'll give like that how awesome that makes me you know, feel and so you can't forget that man and you've gotta be willing to get your clients, uh, gifts and take care of them. Um, you guys try to network more with companies that usually come like the beginning of wedding planning like obviously venues and stops more than let's say flowers, which right? It doesn't make sense for us to go out of our way to do a lot for let's say like a hair silence because that's gonna be one of the later things that a bride books but we do find hair style is that we like that do a great job and so we send our brides that way because ultimately our photographs and being better because the hair looks good makeup looks good that's usually a one way relationship right? I'm pushing business to the hairstylist I'm okay I'm pushing make ah business to the hair makeup people as well but because we treat them well and we send business their way whenever we need makeup her hair for style I shoot they do it for free exactly and so that's that's their give back so it's made it may not come back in the form of ah ah wedding referral but like like taylor's alluding to that allows us to just really continue that relationship get some other parts of the job or if taylor's doing something and she needs their hair makeup done for an event they're willing to take care of us for free on the flip of that is on the front side you're talking about ceremony and reception it's usually ceremony reception photographer in somewhat of that order, churches typically don't send out like they don't refer people they just you know they're focused on being a church so we don't spend a lot of time networking to churches we dio exceptional reception hall and then planners right? You know that's that's uh that's on the front side of things so yeah that's where you want to spend your time but don't forget the smaller people in the equation because there's other ways you can benefit the relationship that's great so melissa mozza photography who is actually from manhattan kansas which is where my brother ric indians used to live and be a photographer out there so I don't know if they know each other but melissa says I have a small local group of photographers and it's all fun while we're shooting but they sit around and complain afterwards or just tons of deer talk which is something you've complained about is who well how do you suggest turning conversations to something more constructive how can you actually get something really good out of those groups yeah I think the I think that we'll start happening with those groups and you see it in the online forms to write it's just people shredding each other and there's like no rhyme or reason for it and ultimately if you fall prey to it it's easy to get sucked into into like a giant just complaint session uh you know sometimes gossip is good for the soul I think way all gotta gossip a little but ultimately you gotta ask yourself is this leading to anything positive coming out of it ninety nine percent of the time no right so what do we hear all the time if you want to change something in life you got to stand up and do it so in that particular situation the way you changed out as you say hey guys you know, since we've got this time together why don't we do something constructive here and talk about like maybe some lighting maybe talk about something outside of it try being the tool there to spearhead this change but here's what's gonna end up happening because I saw it happen in st louis there's that there was that small group and there was that one photographer she was just cancers on she eventually just went out of business and had to move away and once that cancer was gone the kind of the mentality of that group changed right and so what may happen is you may have to splinter off go do your own thing right it's just like kind of a no drama allowed group so you know just keep at it don't be part of the madness man be part of the solution not the problem love it sal julia kunhardt says uh do you ever pay a vendor referral fee? We've thought about offering cash for referrals for people who don't want to shoot with us what your thoughts on that we don't do it we don't offer any referral fees to vendors I consider them or a little bit of bribes right? So there's some wedding planners out there that'll typically want ten percent off your package to reaffirm and you start getting to the more elite wedding planners they expect that or more and I'm unwilling to give ten fifteen, twenty percent of my package toe a planner just her booking that wedding for me and what I what I tell the planner is I've had that happen to me and I say to the planet like if you want to mark my package up mark the package up if you want to make money on top of it that's your choice I'm not making less money I can tell you that and so that's more of my philosophy I think putting cash on the table starts driving potentially the wrong behavior and so for us we just don't do anyone it's her relationship exactly uh based on service based on the fact that they know our business but I understand hey everybody's got to make money in life it's just not the relationship we're looking to build I like that what you said taylor you want a real relationship? Steph maher says by sending pictures for vendors to use aren't you running the the risk that the bride and groom will get upset that their photos are being used elsewhere? They sign a copyright released whenever they book their wedding with us so we have the right to use them whatever we want to four in the contract that you're getting with the course you are gonna have access to our wedding contract one of the bullets in that wedding contract states clearly we own the copyright which gives us the right to use your images for advertising and marketing purposes which includes facebook are blogged vendor sites et cetera now with that being said I don't want anybody out there to believe that if I had a client that said hey we don't want our images used anywhere that we would pull out the contract and be like sorry we've got the right to use it so we would never do that we have clients all the time we have high end clients that are whether they're celebrities or sports celebrities we they don't want their images used and we don't use it a perfect example is some of you know we have photograph to the white house twice photograph president obama I own the copyright to my images but the white house asked us not to put these images online because of the nature of the images and who's in there who are in the images which are very high profile people and we honor that request even though I own the copyright and I could have done whatever I wanted and so you've got to use common sense when it comes to that stuff great I have a question from adrian for in england when is a lot of networking too much networking at what point do you cross the line of being too interested in other cos or professionals or does that happen yeah, I don't think I don't think there's any level where you're doing too much networking, and I feel like I'm always on time, always selling I'm always, uh, communicating, I'm always networking no matter from in the grocery store talking to someone you know what, the cash register? I think I dr taylor, not sometimes that I'm always I feel like I'm always selling, uh, who we are and what we do, but I think that's a good thing, too, because we're constantly getting the word out, I think where you might cross the line is when somebody tells, you know, or just you have to be able to read people that's one thing I think I'm good at is I read body language and I read people very, very well, so if I'm engaged with somebody and they're just not giving me the time of day that's not good persistence that right? Just walk away it's over there to help them go to the next menu. Yeah, go to the next one. Let it go. Move on, right. So sometimes too much persistence. You start getting into that creeper mode and you never you never want to be that.