Creating a Market: Dog Days of Summer
I'm going to jump right into dog days of summer because I keep referring to it and for me, this wass creating the pet photography market, this was the single event for us that created the market, so we're going to spend this whole segment actually talking about it, taking questions. I'll try to answer any questions you have and going into much detail as I can about the event. But the basic gist and it's evolved. We've actually doing it five years now. So our first one was about five years ago, and I already mentioned it was really just started on a whim because one of my employees had a puppy took the shot. So you know what? Let's, let's try to do some kind of promotions. We do these limited editions. We call him already where? It's like these special quick sessions once a month, maybe it's kids dressed up in ballerina outfits. Or maybe we go to the lake or, you know, so we already had the structure in place to do something like this. So that let's just pick a day where all we do is ph...
otograph pets. I literally within two weeks had gotten the, um some cards printed at white house set him out of the vet's office. Put some stuff on her website I'm sent out an email blast that was the only way we marketed it and my initial year and I'll tell you how we changed over the years because you can learn from my mistakes the initial time we did it I only blocked out one afternoon um and I thought we might get you know, five six clients I mean we've never done this before well people really come in with their pets you know I just I didn't know what to expect um and so what we did is there there wasn't a session fee you just had to bring in a large bag of dog food we said a bag of dog food that we would donate to the local animal shelter and then you would get a session in a five by seven like a mini like a ten minute session um within a day way had to like start answering the phones the gallery we do photograph people too because it was non stop like ridiculous literally we had phone calls where someone would call from an office because they got the e mail blast this is the beauty of when you think about something be viral and how inexpensive it could be just to say to an e mail blast or using face book using social media because then they were able to share that with their family and friends we had a woman in office call tio hold on. Someone else wants to make one past the phone along that we booked multiple sessions and so I had a choice because it sold out like a sold out right away. And so, um did I want to, like, make this a bigger deal? How many you know to be extend this so we extended it a day, then we extended it two days and then we extended it half a day and I finally cut it off at about was like a two and a half day event and we photographed over one hundred thirty animals and had a wait list of almost thirty so um it was pretty intense it was really exciting for me it took I was scared like we literally had just finished the remodel in the whole backspace that's now my studio like wood floors and couches and furniture and like, my gosh, one hundred thirty animals like this is gonna all get ruined. And so I have all kinds of tips to tell you because it's amazing how smoothly it ran because there's very specific things you khun d'oh toe help something like this go smoothly so I just want to point out a couple things really quick um the first year we didn't charge anything you bring the magadan to okay what was wrong with this scenario? Believe it or not as lame as it is, some people showed up bag of dog food. Most people did bigger backs um, also very important to note that you need to come if you're going to do it this way, you need to contact the shelter because I mean, dogs have specific foods. Certain shelters may only take a specific food on dh that's not really good for the dogs to be switching them all kinds of foods anyway, so too, to communicate with that vendor, whoever that is that you're able to donate this food. Plus, for us, it was twenty, six hundred pounds of food, we couldn't just show up and dump that on them without them knowing we're coming, so we need to make sure there were people there to help unload it, that they had a space to store it. So there's a little bit of prep work, which we didn't do the first year because we didn't expect the results with god. So a few things we changed this is actually what the card, and then I think actually, after the first year, I think all we did was email blast and website, because if we got that kind of response the first year, you know, why invest any money, printing anything when we could sell out the event, um what? Just doing something digital and so we decided to make it for two days, we decide to charge a fee, so the twenty five dollar fee would go to the studio. And then we specified a thirty pound bag of dog food so that that helped helped out a little bit, same thing they've still got a five by seven um, and this ten minute session, plus what this did by taking that money, they're committed, they prepaid over the phone, so we didn't really have a lot of no shows that first year that I remember. I don't remember that being an issue, but it could be and so that will help prevent that sort of an issue. And then the next year, we raise it to fifty dollars. You may be sitting there thinking I do not want to photograph that many animals. You know what, it's the whole you know, you could charge more than make it two hundred dollars, you know, make it, you know you'll have less takers, probably, but it's, no different than how my business model's kind of changed in my rest of my business. For me, though, limited editions, when we talk about these specifically, I go into them knowing this is not my normal sessions I look att tthe eases gateway sessions to get people in the door to see my space to see my studio, to see my work so that way they're like, oh gosh, like I'm bring my pet here but I want to bring my kids to like it's not just about actually photographing the pet on that day, so we have special pricing I know that although some people will spend a lot of the averages will be less but it's just it's it's a good business model I just shoot a bunch and it's more volume shooting I don't want to shoot that in my normal at day to day work, but once a year or every other month with the limited edition I actually enjoy it I actually like it almost like energizes me I like almost artistic challenge okay? I'm gonna go into today and do as many different variety of things as I can it's almost the same energy I have with going into this week and like all these shoots and I don't know what to expect and it might be a little crazy it's that same feeling that dog days kind of is for me um so that's the basic just so the tying and with eso part of it's about giving back in time and with the animal shelter you do not need a space to do this and and we actually later on have video will show you, um, we visited one of the, um the barking lounge a dog daycare next door that it was a great space that you could easily a zit photographer build a relationship with someone like them and host an event at a space like that. So I'm not limit. This is not limited to people who have a studio in some ways, it would actually be better to have it at a space like that because you would eliminate some of the chaos of that the you know, that money and animals coming through your space. Um so this is a volvo now, I've been doing it five years, just so you guys know this is evolved to were now it's we kept it it's the fifty dollars a thirty pound bag of dog food and we just do an email blast. We actually almost half of our sessions now, it's, just like our business. It's actually repeat clients it's the same clients coming back to dog days every here. Um but then we get the new one still it's not as many. And I actually find that, and I'm okay with that with a lot of my events, like we came out with this big bang, we created this market and then um what's cool is I still do that every year, but it's only one day like I don't extend it, it is what it is and anybody who wants to come the rest of the year, they pay my normal prices. It's a normal session that's how the market got created because before dog days of summer, I was not having clients just bringing their pets and to be photographed now, multiple times a year, I have clients coming in to pay maybe their pain higher averages than my regular clients. I mean, we're talking just the pets, even people not in it, you know, two, three, four thousand dollars on wall portrait's on christmas cards, on albums, that's still not my main business. I am not sitting here saying, oh, look, I'm doing this pep, harvey, and I'm making millions doing it. I'm still children and family, and this is a wonderful addition to my product line that I'm offering my clients but it's really exciting because it was an untapped market and I love to share it because I feel like people, I'm not necessary with this, but maybe with this but something else, like you get people who are, oh, like we don't have that in our area, oh, people don't pay for this in our area, we don't have cool mountains like seattle to you know, shoot and really cornfields you know, like you have all these things that people like you like to be negative about and I look it oh, you don't have a market for pet food harvey knows doing pet photography and your areas like challenging awesome like be the one to do it but we were the ones that did that so you know what happened of course there's other photographers in our area doing more pet photography and that's okay, I think there's enough for all of us that goes back to saying I don't need to be the client for everybody so um just just a few kind of things but I want it I have a video I put together um that gives you just a little insight I know we're actually going to shoot a live dog days of summer event on saturday which is really exciting but this video at least be a good intro to what we're gonna talk about this morning I'm gonna walk a hundred miles I'm going away so although why if that's what it takes to make me smile I'm gonna walk a hundred my I'm gonna run right up this hill summer sky are inter chin if I gotta take a break I I'm gonna run matter thiss I wantto weigh right here in my hand and maybe I'm just a little girl is great I'm gonna go take a chance I'm gonna learn too late dance a little something about around man I'm gonna go take a chance I'm gonna live a crazy dream impossible as it may save doesn't matter with future brings I'm gonna lay a crazy dream way right here wait maybe I'm just a girl a little girl with great big plans I wantto weigh so um yeah hopefully that except gives you a little window into what thie event looks like but I know I want to give you more concrete details so this is an example of um and I know you guys and the um the audience to feel free to look in your folders under your chairs there's examples of some of the stuff in there and actually there's more of it I think you're going getting on saturdays well but basically we have a limited edition calendar that we put out every year we get something printed we put it online and dog days of summer is always one of those events and so we do and tomorrow we're gonna go into some of the other events that we d'oh some of the other event marketing um but the actual details about dog days of summer um the specifics is that's a large bag of dog food for the animal shelter and we've done anything from zero to twenty five to fifty dollars for a ten minute session in one five by seven um we have the first year did gift bags so kind of little swag bags this is an example of what? Like, once the event became so big, I was like, oh, kind of backtracking of wanting to get some other people involved and I was able to share with them the amount of people involved so like the one question made earlier about approaching vendors, you know, if you do something this and you're having a good response like that's, obviously really good value to the other vendors, so the dog bakery actually gave us cute little dog bags we've got something I think from, like cut smart and the vet, and we even had little doggie biscuits with rv gallery logo made on him from the dog bakery, so this is not something we do every year like this is like a lower investment session, so I mean, that would eat into it's just a little more work, it would cost a little bit more, but in a lot of cases and when I talk about invents in general there's basically a checklist of things that we do and swag bags or gift bags is definitely one of them because of the experience factor because if you think about it, one hundred thirty eight people coming in let's say half of um I had never been into our store before, um maybe they've heard about us, maybe they'd seen work in a friend's home of their child or family, but then now they're saying large prints on the wall of people of pets, they're being treated like super awesome, like coming here for this thing that what's amazing is because it tied in with charity. People were so awesome and, like, so cool and so generous and like, oh, I'm sorry, my dog's not doing okay like your dog's doing great like they didn't even it's, um, it's almost felt to me like they didn't even care if they hardly had any good pictures to choose whom they were just so excited to be part of that. So obviously, on the flip side, yes, we gave them wonderful images to choose from, but I think people that first year especially came thinking it was me cookie cutter like it was just gonna be like, like dog pictures with santa, like, just see, okay, set down snapshot, maybe not like something unusual, artistic, creative and like you saw on those images, like we tried to do a lot of variety, so people were actually really surprised which I made it worth the effort, and we still do these orders on in the studio. So uh, part of the organization factor that makes us run like clockwork um and very smoothly is we set all that up ahead of time so they when they call and they prepaid they booked their session they actually go ahead and book their return order appointment um for about two weeks later um they're only going to see I would say take seven seven at twelve fifteen images maybe um but if I had just put these online and they're already getting a free five by seven, what would happen? I think most people would just take their free five by seven that first year alone we made ten thousand dollars just off of additional orders from this effort and work now that was a lot of work like yeah, I mean, I could shoot a couple sessions of a different type and maybe you get that kind of money but the residuals you can't even track from this because now out of those hundred thirty let's say just a small portion of them returned like let's say ten people let's say five people returned for other types of sessions or even a regular dog session the next year spending our normal average is that gets way more than worth it like like beyond um and then this guy that was one hundred thirty people now that have images in their home in their office like when I talk about you have to sell it to show it and you talk about billion portfolio and somebody asked you how do you you know, start doing that like this is a great way and it was free like my clients paid for it facing my clients paid for me to get marketing in the community with these pet images there's image of the little the gallery dog biscuits again the first year we did it I mean I'd be up from you guys the first year we did it was our biggest year I mean that's when we had the most we put the most effort into it but I didn't feel the need to keep doing it on that level because we were still booking and then getting the people coming in for sessions throughout the year and I tend to do that like with the event like I want to really go out the uh kind of a bang you know, initially volunteer's this is where I'm gonna talk about some of the specifics on how you can stay really organized I will tell you this first year I was so scared and I was so paranoid because I thought about the studio getting ruined I thought I wasn't able to do it like what did I get myself into? So I almost like overthought it over planned over prepared I can tell you that I think our last photo shoot that first year dog days of summer ended at like six thirty and we were at the local mexican restaurant having marguerite at seven and the studio was impeccable in perfect because what I did I solicited friends kids who I knew loved pets clients, kids you could ask the anybody who likes and was like my friends daughter helps at the local pet shop feeding the fish in animals like she likes animals so getting a handful of those kinds of kids they would eat this event up and all they have to do they literally I had these will aprons I made the head dog biscuits and squeakers and swift furs and lint rollers and we had vacuums and all they did all day long. I was kind of like doggie control, making sure like the two pound dog wasn't leaving when the two hundred pound dog was coming in and that they just every time a client would leave they would be just let rolling the couches on and it was a very low investment to have the peace of mind that the studio looked great on dh there were no no issues or problems of course we put a little garbage can and will sack outside the studio for the dogs to hopefully use if it had to go to the bathroom I think in the five years we've only had I would say less than five I'm animals actually go to the bathroom in the studio the reason being these air quick these air quick we get him in we get him out we have a system we have everything in fact, I have some of the stuff I was going to show you guys you should have copies of some of this too, but we actually have a whole system. Um what you're looking at here is our client information folder um that it's actually through success where we made a template that when you put in somebody session in order and they pay you khun print invoice or in this case we say print envelope and we literally feed an envelope through the printer and it prints out on this great little what is that? Maybe six by nine envelope that has their release on it that they have to sign or in this case be paul print with an ink pad that owner has to sign um and it's got all the information their email address and we we actually have one of my plays print everything off. They put him in these little holders that we just got the office store that if there were one hundred thirty animals coming in we literally had one hundred thirty four folders that were like this with the envelope in there ready to go there return appointment card in there so we get these people in and out quickly as possible and it's a better experience for them they can't come in and their dogs barking at this other dog away do you want to make a return appointment like there's? No time for that so it was very smooth on their end as well. So and the other thing is too we use the same folders to put the cards so I actually would shoot a separate card for each client in case it got back log like downloading and knowing like which dog? Which client? So we literally could put the cards in here with the envelopes um stack them up and I just would have somebody downloading them all and then they'd start load him in delight room and start editing we do shoot him in raw so um anyway so that's really like if the release forms their information folder but what I love about this when you talk about organization and this is for the whole studio how we do this this was a huge thing for us when we switched over to the system years ago as far as the paper trail because we were getting like these huge banker boxes as your business longer if you like just start to collect stuff so I had these baker boxes full of negatives and then that turned into banker boxes full of, you know, multiple dvds and cds and you know whatever the storage options were at the time and we do these hand written manila envelopes and they take up all the space he's fit to up in a file cabinet and they're all printed and ledge a ble and they're dated so literally aiken store twice as much stuff in the same amount of space I could do just one envelope and it's well organized and clean and we put in there uh disc with their raws and their j pegs and then we have a print off of everything that they order that just gets folded in half in there so um we have these archived and backed up and when we're talking with photoshopping jed and workflow we can go into some more about technical staff but on the paper trail side of it we've actually had to do this unfortunately and we've always been fine like I don't want to ever rely on the discs being what we need to go back to but we could if we had to you know we don't guarantee anything to the client except for what they order but if they did come back and need something we can actually very easily find these folders now they're organized they're alphabetized and the disks they're in their everything they ordered if they want to reprint something you know clients home unfortunately something happens it burns down we need to replace it this's just spend a tremendous paper trail for us and these same folders actually go through her work flow system in bins, we actually have to communicate between employees so we haven't been that's like needs edited needs to place an order. Is that the lab? So you actually a paper trail that at any point time I can see where a client's order is at and what's happening with it and that's really important. Now, the way we've downsized or business it's like plenty time there's an employee there with nobody else there or I'm gone or they don't know what the other person did so it's not like all of us just being there all day. Maybe you wouldn't need that kind of a system as much but it's really important now, like that's, our way of communicating um so yeah, tons of volunteers, the organization is key. Like said the results that first year alone, um was one hundred and thirty animals and a wait list of thirty. We had tons of free press and the thing with free press um what that really is it's just you taking effort to fill out a press release form and all a press release form is it's really like a date your information about your business, what you're doing, I will give you a couple of key things so if you tie in, I mean, I wanted to titan and with the charity because I wanted to do that, I wanted to donate to the local animal shelter, the reality, and the truth is, if, with your business, you're going to do some sort of help for somebody else in the community you're giving back to the community, it is definitely more likely that your story will get covered or picked up because it's not just about you and your business, like you're doing something good for the community on dh so it's very, very simple for me, you would just fill out, and we actually had all the newspapers came out, the video station came out one year, and it was I mean, I really became, like, known as the pet photographer, I mean, it was like, I'd have people stop me in the bank oh, yeah, you know, because then they saw the article and they saw everything is happening, so all this was free, like, how do you put a price tag on that? You know, sure, we brought ten thousand dollars in from sales, but there's so many other things that happened from this event, so we actually don't believe people who book dog days of summer a year in advance before we even have the date they try to because it's like just you know, other people will book a normal session but it's just people know about it they just know about it it's a small community on we've done so much with it this is actually client that comes in she just came in um a couple weeks ago um with her with her dogs and and normal session not a dog days session actually just with her pets being photographed we had two cars that look like that about wrecked our cars that's how much? Um dog food we were able to donate um I think that's an image from the first year but I don't even know I should try to calculate that the thousands of pounds of dog food we we've donated in five years how did we market there that this is an example of why our email blast for a couple years what they look like now we changed how they looked like well, but but it's pretty template driven we use campaign monitor and we actually when we design the newsletter or the pick the dates at the beginning of the year, we actually go ahead and we designed like the actual email blast for all the events for the year two and we can put him in and haven't scheduled to send out and that's really again important for me because I may go weeks without employees at studio you know, I mean, we went through major changes with people moving and leaving and I've just downsized so having all that done ahead of time I can be here in seattle nobody could be at the studio, you know, we could actually have something be already scheduled from once ago to go out to advertise, advertise something so and it likes it it's pretty template driven so our next limited edition um would look pretty similar to this and just flip flop the images change the color um so so we're really all about trying to be efficient and not re creating something that doesn't need recreated that's become really important more than ever. Now I found myself almost like using in a abusing employee situation and like just because people were there like having them do stuff, but maybe it wasn't always efficient like it's amazing the amount of things we're still able to get done with a lot less employees. So um again a lot of that will come in when judges going through workflow and some of the software and the things that we use this saves a lot of time the relationship marketing we are in um this we have to that's offices that are completely decorated with our images this is the one I already shared with you that she comes in every single year with all of her pets and we have little brochures that you guys do have samples in your packet I'll bring one up here but that you get twenty five dollars off a pet session throughout the year so that's really just of all this the little special that we do with any of the bakeries or the bet's just have some cards printed up s oh it's a normal session um it's not for dog days in his twenty five dollars off so it's just something simple but that they can set out the advertises our studio to try to just get every day throughout the year of clients in the door um oh here's the thing I would like to share with you um with the event it's with events in general typically I would tell you it makes sense to do them when your cash flow is struggling a little bit doom when your business is slower like if you're slammed in the fall like we are it makes no sense to offer like this special deal and and um I have all this extra workload when you're already busy uh we did this dog days of summer not know he's going to be so big in it I mean summer's not as busiest fall but it's a busier I know other people I've got so many emails we've been teaching about dog base for a few years now um seattle will be a great one somebody did it's raining cats and dogs you know, like you could come up with, like, other cute fun names uh, besides dog days of summer, but to have it at a time of year when it's what's better for you and when you need that extra income and that I mean that's really for any limited edition or special I'm just some other images from some relationship displays this one hangs at the local that office, this one I was sure this actually this is not the actual gallagher out, but this is the file be sent off for a thirty thirty gather up the hangs in the vet's office and this is from the first dog days of summer, every animal, right, right until two weeks later and this week is having in our studio and the client comes in and her pets not on there like I think we like ms like one person on there like, oh, after doing, you know, all of that, like, well, yeah, looking find your pet, they're on there it's like it's not on here, I'll surely is sure it is. So that was five years ago. I don't even remember what happened, you know, from that, um, I've felt pretty bad about that, but the concept was great, I mean, like, we put all the animals on there and this now hangs we had it in our studio for like a year and that's what I would suggest you do with some of your displays like to use on like it use out of them and then move it somewhere else and we're constantly moving stuff around we have a couple of key displays at the local restaurants when everything's and rather than keep paying money, I don't keep getting new prints like make it fresh by just moving them to the different places thie other thing I've done I've been known to do with relationship displays are vendors is offer them something special if I photograph of their animals, their pets so like they're not paying full price to do images in their space, so that would be that's like a thirty forty gallery route that hangs in their space and I would say probably the most exciting thing from this that um happened was booking the regular portrait sessions like that really is like ultimately because I still in children and family like that was the quote I shouldn't say like that was the coolest thing for me to seeks I didn't go into it thinking like that, but um toe literally hear people saying like, wow, I can't believe it took me that long to get into the gallery I've always wanted to be guard portrait and now I'm here with my pet not to minimize that it's the pet but it's like we've never done portrait's of our kids and people love their pets like pets are there kids in fact yeah, I actually one of the newspapers it it quoted me that like people really like their kids but they love their pets that's like the feeling that I got those from the people coming in like they were like that much more excited about what we were doing so there was just a good energy about it like that's just the energy about it was just fabulous um and then people coming in your round and this is an example of the one template that we have that is the twenty five dollar off card so basically speak out he knows that when you have pets they're part of your family don't forget to have them photographed too since the gallery's pet friendly we're offering a special coupon just for your pet and so that's basically the twenty five twenty five dollars off the pet session so I went through because we get a lot of out of everything that I've taught about or we have our you know, pet photography products we sell in our website and all that stuff like we get the most questions about this so it kind of I just asked some of the basic questions some of these I already probably answered so I could fly through it pretty fast but I'm sure there's people that have some of these questions so how do you advertise dog days? First year was definitely pretty materials but then also um facebook email blast now it's strictly just email blast website how long do you allow for each animal? This's shifted I think if you actually go through and look att every year and we played around with like now that we're not trying to book a cz money I am giving them a little more time so I think that first year we said ten minutes it's ranging from ten, fifteen minutes for each animal but that's where being organized in having the volunteers and the helper is key because you really gotta keep them on schedule because you guys know it's just like anything your doctor's office you know, if you're doing things that quickly the first person that gets you behind you're going to be behind and have all these dogs waiting it'll be a mess so you really need I need to have organization with that how's your first try go on what would you do differently? We actually already covered that as far as um I would charge differently and check in with the shelter about the actual food the brand that they would suggest using oh, this is a good question to um before I give into viewing their images so the first year we had a call from somebody trying to take advantage of the system like this is a great price right? The first year was free it was just a bag of dog food it's like oh yeah my cousins are in town so we want a picture with like grandma and like all the extended family know my dog's gonna be in the picture too no, no no that's not what this it's like that is not what we're doing here like the focus of this and this goes back to the question I was asked on this weekend by a few people are these images just of the pets are these of the people in the pets? And so I treat this the same way I treat a mother with a child somebody calls to do a session with child I would always tell the mom come dress that you could be in the images or that part of you could be in the images the focus of dog days it's so limited what it is like this isn't like come bring your whole family unless your family portrait so you need to book a normal session for that like I don't want to eat into that type of a session like that's good that's a good session and good money that that's like its whole ordeal I want to spend an hour with them and do all the breakdowns that's not what this is so on the flip side I know is money variety like options and photographing the owner with the pets that I can do I will have better sales so I go into it knowing what I need to get and what we've told them this is the the same idea of exceeding the expectations like if we've told them our goal is to get a picture of your pet you may be in it we may need you to be in it I mean we have had cases some of these up close shots where you've seen of the dogs like the owners like holding the dog in some cases we have had to do that for these quick sessions holding the dog I'm squeak in the toys we get some beautiful up close headshots there are no full length shots that's ok for what we're doing with this but the clients have to be up front with them and let him know that kind of you know right away that they may be in the images we may need them in the images but really the focus is of your pet um the other thing is this year is the first year this happened this was just a couple weeks ago out of the whole day of shoots we only had two of those sessions it was all dogs we usually get cats but it was all dogs but out of all the sessions we only had two of them be a single animal all the rest for three, four and five animals uh yeah and actually I take that back the one that that hat did bring in the two counts so we did have two cats, so because people asked that that would be in common so the way we address that is if it's just one or two we offer them, they can do one time slot for one or two, but they're still only going to get one image that stoneleigh ten minutes in the bag of dog food most people don't do that what we recommend is you just you pay for each one and and we don't actually give them full time slots at that point, though, so I think for this session of um five pets we didn't give her fifty minutes like I knew I could cover it definitely in less than that, so maybe we blocked out, you know, thirty five minutes, but she paid, you know, whatever that is fifty dollars times five so like she paid two hundred fifty dollars and brought five backs dog food so that's really a slick way kind of that's just how it happened I don't know why it worked out that way, but that is how we would address it I would do that if people ask they just khun pay that fee multiple times, like they're multiple sessions. Um, so that was it was an interesting because some people like the one client with five, she just wants a mall individual, but then some people want, you know, to dogs together, he talks air a dog and a cat together, and you've seen some of the images will definitely try it, and I already already pre warned them that's why I like him to pay the two session fees I tell him like this again would be no different than with the family. This is what I'm gonna try to do. I know this is what you want, but we may have to do this, so we'll try to get them together, but it may end up being I get to I want to make sure you get something great, so it may be too great individual shots of each so again, if you let your client and all that stuff up front, um, and out front for me in that case, khun b like when they're in studio, I'm not talking about doing pre consults and keep him on the phone for twenty minutes when they call like it's, just like I'm talking to him, okay, here's, what we're doing, I've got their folder and that's the other thing, I'm terrible with names that's. Why these folders are awesome, because we've got everything written down the owner's name, the dog's name, the kid's name, it's, all just right there. And I keep that right by my camera stand. So if I'm like, oh, hey, bob, you know, I can, uh, I can refer to that.