Overview of Successful Selling: The 6 Ps of Selling Part 1
I want to talk about what it means to sell and how you can create a good selling system in your studio. This is one of the most important systems that you can develop in your business and I say that with a lot of conviction okay surely I want you start growing money on trees would not be nice but yeah that's what I like in this too is growing a money on a tree and I'm going to give you an analogy about growing something that I hope will help you see what it means to create a system in sales sales truly is one of my favorite topics but for most photographers it makes them want to curl up in the fetal position with a glass of wine and like hide in a hole forever right sales khun b incredibly daunting and I think what it comes down to as artists were selling our self worth right you put your heart and soul in your images into your work you care very much about what you're doing whether you believe it or not that camera is your paintbrush it is your artist's tool ok and every time you clic...
k the shutter your soul is going into that image I truly believe that one of the reasons we were put on this earth by god destiny fate whatever you wanna call it is to be creative because that creativity gives something to other people and what it gives to other people is a part of your soul creativity is your soul's way of speaking to the world and sadly so many children that sense of creativity is squashed in them as use and it's so heartbreaking because that creativity is how they are expressing who they are, what their soul is okay, but if you think about it when you click that shutter that's, what you're doing is your being creative and you're allowing your soul what you know fate made you and you're putting it into a tangible piece of work that you're asking someone to purchase it almost feels like prostitution, really, but you really are you're asking someone to pay for you for what you value for what you see of the world and for what you create that is haunting and george just loves to come in there and you pack I can't believe you're trying to do this. What do you thinking yada yada yada? I liken it to the schultz peanuts where the teachers don't want want want want want want want you know, talking about george takes hold and wins, and so selling especially in person is incredibly scary at first and the switch over to going from online two in person is scary because it's so much easier george shuts up when you just put the images online and don't have toe you know if I can't see it, it's not there, right? If I don't see the people, I don't have to deal with it. But then, of course, all your coping with is the sale they give you, which is going to be low, and that just makes george right back up again. You just start again, okay, so this selling system will kill george hashtag killed george here's a little story in two thousand six. Basically, when I started, uh, first part of two thousand seven, I was online. Okay, we're selling online. Looking back at the time, I was terrible system of numbers, I was a crappy photographer all the above. Okay, so I lost money and I didn't realize it until through four years later, when I looked jack it's the numbers and my tax returns and realized that I was losing money. I didn't know it at first, so I switched to in person sales in september of two thousand seven. I started my business in december of two thousand six, okay, so in two thousand seven, about ten months of the year, nine or ten months of the year are switched in person sales and slowly began to climb, okay. Within three years I had increased my profitability by fifty percent, which is huge and when I need between two thousand ten in two thousand thirteen that's when everything went all wow double the client base okay that's when things went haywire and profit billy went up huge okay and from their education has grown so we've slowly grown in the business up, up up and now I run two businesses basically I run my client business and I run my education side okay, diversify your assets right that's what a good business person does and since I have these two abilities and two skills I run two separate businesses, right? So I bombed it in the beginning no idea what I was doing I went a couple trade shows that thought my pricing everyone's telling you know different people were telling me to do one thing other people were telling me to do another oh, this is how you package you know the drill. Okay, what I noticed is that everyone was doing I ps who was really successful okay? So I kind of realized in cash will go that route right and most people were using pro select at the time pro select was kind of it was fairly new a few years old it was the hot product on the market it didn't have a lot of competitors at the time, so I quickly realized okay, I need some kind of selling software to do this this is what I need so I started learning pro select when I did it switched in person sales and pro select I changed my pricing structure yet again okay but this time I did it correctly and I did it profitably from there I downloaded the trial of pro select and it was either july or august of two thousand seven I don't remember but I do remember I did my first sale with the trial version of the software my first sale I think was twenty two hundred dollars the next one was eighteen hundred the next one was in the teams again and it just went on and on from there and you khun guess what happened next online went out the window okay I never looked back now when I moved to bend I had a whole other issue because I have another market whole other demographic whole another ideal client compared to portland totally different animal so I had to reinvigorate my business through marketing and I actually had to lower my price is a little bit in order to be competitive in order to sustain what the market compare so but I still need to make a certain average so pricing was tweaked and adjusted and systemized to fit the market I was in this is a lot of game playing guys this is a lot of strategic thinking this is a lot of trial and error seeing what works in your area okay and you have to give it a chance to work and it's scary because then you think oh well if it doesn't work I'm going these so many months without income and it's a risk but that's being an entrepreneur onto being entrepreneurs risky okay you got it you got to be okay with that so the goal and telling you the stories to make you understand that pricing is a sales is a system and has lots of components to it you're pricing your in person what how are you showing the images to your client do you have a product line that's good okay so the question is how do you sell in a systematic approach well it starts at the very very, very beginning of the relationship it does not start in the sales room if you start in the sales room you are setting yourself up for disaster okay? I always know when I have a bad sale session I can crack backwards and know exactly where I screwed up to a t oh yeah I forgot to do that okay it's happened still happens to this day I mean things get dropped all the time and it's gonna happen so don't be hard on yourself if it does just don't make the same mistake again for me once what is the phrase fool me once shame on you fool me twice shame on me yeah exactly so but if you stick to this system you almost guarantee your desired average if you stick to the system you almost guarantee your average that sounds almost too good to be true doesn't it feel like if I just do something step by step will make my average every time yeah that's what I'm telling you okay it is what I call the six piece of selling cases my favorite topic I love this stuff six piece are purpose prie consults products pricing projection of policies okay welcome to write those down if you want or not you can they're in the air in the guide they're in the r s v p or the er with purchase workbook so grab those if you want I'm saying that if you master these guys you will reach your average still with every client every single client or at least get really darn close here's my goal with you welcome here's the cheap twenty dollars ala carte person and here's the ten thousand dollars sale person we like those okay I want ninety nine percent of your client's right here these are nice but I want reliability I don't want one of these and none of these that's scary you know once a year making a good sale that's that's a little wu pulls out wringing okay I want a lot of clients right at that happy place I want the phone ringing consistently and I want to know that every person who comes in my studio spent one hundred bucks how could I do that? How can I guarantee that six piece of selling okay in combination with brand customer service booking strategies all these systems that we're talking about the six piece of selling are just like the icing on the cake that makes thie the horse come to the trough okay, so we're going to talk today this is a three part series we're going to talk today about purpose and pre consultations okay that's we're gonna cover today tomorrow we're gonna cover products and pricing on the last day we're gonna talk about projection and policies and of course we're also going to say see it in person sales session in my studio with an actual real client outfit creative life has done this before we've when I did my sales and pricing class a couple years ago we did a fake sale session where the model came back and did the sale session but they were told they had a fifteen hundred dollar budget that's not really authentic right? I mean it was you got to see the language and you learned a lot from it of course but I this time I wanted you to see the real thing so that's what we did so the creative live crew came to my studio a few weeks ago we taped the segment is an actual client with siblings and a newborn it was really fun to do and the client I was told that they were going to be doing if we were doing a training video for education and they were just to do normal what they normally would dio we didn't prep them we didn't tell them tell them how much they had to spend we didn't do anything we just said there's going to be a camera with a microphone you fly on the wall do you know whatever happens happens we just want to be able to train people like okay cool we're more than happy to help us out okay so that's what how I want to set up this session for you so you really understand that it was authentic okay so today purpose and pre consul ts purpose is the umbrella that holds up your business that protects you and encourages you and gives your clients the sense of belonging to your studio okay purpose I used the umbrella thing because I wanted it to encompass all the peace what is purpose any suggestions bueller bueller on any suggestions what is purpose the reason we do it okay good we're getting somewhere thank you let's talk about that why do you do what you do support my family okay why else do you do it she said to support my family why else do you do this because you love it okay what else do you do this his art okay why else? Because your dreams are getting a little deeper okay, honestly I do it because it's my release before I had a metal condition I used to run as my release and now I take pictures for my release and I love it. So this way I can do what I want to dio and also make money and provide for my family with them very common reasons why else makes me happy makes you happy, okay, all of these reasons, why should I care? I mean, really I'm your customer? Why the hell do I care if you're happier now? I hate to be blunt, but really, why do you get out of bed in the morning? And why should I, as your customer care that you do, your passion will show through and it will benefit the client. Yes. So how do we communicate that in our purpose, how do we communicate that to our clients and our purpose? Well, I was going to say if if I'm passionate about it, I'm really good at it, and I can give you something you can't get from somebody else or you can't do yourself go deeper, dig deeper yeah, while you do what you do, why do you go to bed morning, wash my care deeper, deeper, deeper? This is hard, I'm challenging this's hard why does your business existe passion? I don't care if you're passionate why should I care? You are going to care what I'm going to give you beautiful products that you can't get what that's really me what does that mean to me? It is an experience that you cannot recreate and I'm going to give you once I'm going to get it right and you're gonna love it what is that julia I you're doing great you're doing great yes, I'm gonna give you memories that you can't get back later why do I care? Because if I'm happy and I'm in my job what I'm doing, I can do a better job for you and give you great memories to cherish forever let's go beyond memory okay, I know I'm totally making a point here I'm sorry people buy emotion and good feelings, okay? They buy solution chin's two problems right? You're why has to come from the deepest, darkest, glorious, most wonderful place in your heart hear why comes from your experience as a human being and if my experience related to that and connects to that, I'm gonna want to buy what you have people don't buy what you do they buy why you do it wait, repeat that people don't buy what you d'oh take pictures record memories yea they buy why you do it on a deep sentimental level okay so when I ask you why you're did your business exists I want to talk to you about something very important that a brilliant businessman named simon cynic talks about and it's called the golden circle okay most companies in the world know exactly what they do okay most companies know how they do it right you know what you do you take pictures you know how you do it with a cannon find a mark three whatever right very few companies know why this is the classic analogy okay? We made great public computers we do it with simple design, innovative technology and beautiful appearance really great companies market and sell from their purpose okay, they start with why and go out words we challenge the status quo we advance human thought we dare to be different we do that was simple design, innovative technology and beautiful technique and we happen to make great computers you want to buy one totally different perspective. Okay, so how would you apply this to a photography business? We believe being a parent is the greatest reason toe live we cherish family love we challenge that recorded heritage gives self esteem to every child we do that with creative design organic understated fine are aesthetic enduring quality and an emotional experience and we happen to make beautiful portrait would you like to commission us totally different then I will take a memory and make it last anchor connect with me on my beliefs as a consumer. Kay, when you become a mother for the first time, you all of a sudden realized that you have an entirely different reason to be on the planet, that your life's purpose is defined. The love you feel is so different than anything else you've ever experienced. It is over whelming and my job is to take that emotional time of your life and give you the beginning of it. Let the beginning never end is my tagline people don't buy what you do, they buy why you do it and what you do simply proves what you believe, okay, how you do it shows whyyou are unique. People don't buy what you dio they buy why you do it at what you do simply proves what you believe, how you do it, okay, how you do it shows why you are unique. This is what we've been talking about this whole time, customer service, product development, all the stuff, how you do it is what makes you unique and what makes you unique makes you marketable, sellable and profitable don't be a commodity right to see how all these things worked together and the points on the circle are all making a business do you see that how it's all kind of coming together. And the biggest question against like julia okay how do I find my purpose? Right? Oh god we're all racking your brain going why on earth how do I find that deep in me that's truly mine and authentic and that's very important you have to do what's authentic to you well I want you to start by going back to the dream dream in the very, very beginning when you first started this whole process why did you want to do this for some I mean another reason another deep seated where I started with my purposes there were never photographs of me anywhere in my house when I was young I have one picture of me as a new born that's it it was taken at the hospital it's the little crappy you know picture they give you in the hospital that's all I have of myself as a newborn my parents we move so much that I didn't put they didn't put images on the walls at all ok, that was something that contributed to my desire to want to do photography go back to your memories this is hard guys this is asking you to peel away the layers of the onion of your heart and figure out what influenced your life to make you do what you do dig deep into who you are and it may take a while to find okay this is something that took me five, six years to really hone in on and define and that's ok that's perfectly fine right now, my biggest goal with you guys is for you to be aware of it, because when you sell from that point when you sell from that purpose, your client gets attached to you on the belief when you buy an apple iphone, you believe it's going to do something for you, not only organize your life but make you really hip and cool, right? It's? Why everybody lines up for an iphone because it's look cool, hip technology, you know, they have innovative technology, and they believe in advancing human thought that's why we latch onto apple because we believe what they believe and everything that they do the packaging, the thoughts and their letters, the products, the simple, clean design all contribute to that why they all contribute to that belief if the product was kind of clunky and didn't really wasn't as clean and seamless and all that stuff, we wouldn't think it wouldn't confirm the purposes much. What it how you do simply proves what what you do simply proves what you believe and how you do it proves how you were unique, okay, when you've got it your purpose, use it, sell your business brand and bottom line from your beliefs but make sure they're authentic the worksheet that comes with purchase has some really deep intense questions in there that are going to really make you think about your purpose and make it could help to find that for you and those customers who believe with you will become a loyal evangelists of your business they will look at apple apple lovers air pretty devoted you know once your purpose is defined every decision that you make in your business will revolve around it I think that's an important point to bring up because your purposes in grain and everything it's ingrained in your selling technique it's ingrained in your brand everything every decision I make in my studio I ask myself does this revolve around my purpose in my brand so remember it may take a while you have to be patient purpose is unique to you that's part of your unique selling point that's what's going to keep you above and beyond the competition don't try to adopt someone else's purpose it's not gonna work okay it's a big picture thing zoom out okay zoom out purpose permeates every part of your business whether you realize it or not and if your purpose is not well defined and you're not going from that place all the time your clients will feel it and your business won't be as cohesive and tight that makes sense like it won't be as little pack neat little package okay I know I haven't exactly told you what your purpose is because I don't know what your purpose is you have to find that yourself and I know a lot of you on your head going okay you're starting to dig deep you're kind of asking yourself questions like why don't I do what I do why do I get out this morning and why should my client care that I do get out of bed in the morning right why should your client care that you do you have to answer that question on a very emotional level and it will help you also to find your ideal client because that ideal client will believe the same thing that you do this is important the p with a punch everyone always asked me really do I need to do one what a waste time for my client yes you're crazy you don't need to do one okay this is the one thing that is not negotiable really this is the one thing that is not negotiable in your business you have to do a pre consul shooting yourself in the foot if you don't okay what's critical to remember is that it's for me at least in what I teach is it's not about hard sell I'm not trying to get you to like push things on your client that they don't want I'm trying to help you guide your client in the direction they want to go okay, your client knows nothing about the photography industry. They are the blind leading the blind they have no idea what's going on they need you to guide them and educate them and help figure out like when you go. Okay, so for example say say you've all of a sudden decide to get into backpacking and you're gonna go on an overnight mountain climb up a hill and you need a backpack so you go to like, ari I or someplace and you need some you know nothing about backpacks well liked by the most expensive one do I buy the cheapest one? What? What they do, he needs someone to help you figure out what you need for the purpose of your problem, right? It's the same thing with photography don't assume your client knows what to do with their images that ninety nine percent of them have no idea. All they know is what they do themselves digital files and difference that's all they know, right? So when you sell online, you are basically telling them, oh, you just by what you know that's like trying to buy a backpack about height back back country hiking when you've never even back country hike before and you have no idea what to buy, you're going by which cheap you're going by what's safe, you're going by what you know then you're going to be screwed because you go on this backpacking trip and you don't have the right gear for it and you're gonna be uncomfortable miserable the whole time you're up there it's the same with people who invest in cheap wedding photographers so if we don't educate our clients through that process it's our fault we're the ones who mess it up that's what the pre consultation is all about it's about preparing your client for the sail long before the sales appointment arrives okay, so a good pre consultation gets them thinking of the possibilities planting that seed ah, pre consultation implies a commission when your client meets with you and we talk about what we're doing we're doing for the session were pre planning we're looking at the options were thinking ahead remember you're not a retail industry, your service industry you are providing a custom service for your client, so add that with a pre complication and you've got a commission your client has commissioned you for this work there commissioning you to create art the pre consultation establishes the relationship it set the ground rules it guides the client in the direction that the sale will go, it gets all those creative killers awakens clients always know what to wear right white shirts, khaki pants whoo yeah, nineteen eighties ok, they think they know what to wear all they know is their previous experience and their previous experience could have been twenty years ago back in the nineteen eighties when everybody wore button down oxford white shirts and khakis we don't do that anymore it's not twins ease matchy matchy it's different so you need to get those kinds of creative killers out of the way you need to plant the seed of the sale you need to help the client figure out what they want to do with their images how they want to see them five ten years from now it's not about the picture it's about the final product what are you going to do with that? Um so one thing to hire a professional it's another thing to actually do something with the images I say that so many times it makes my head spin okay? And ultimately what you're trying to do is court the client into a beautiful marriage with you and by doing a pre consultation you're providing an exclusive service to them you're educating them, giving them information customer service while at the same time helping you solidify your sale makes sense the consultation has two purposes make the client feel loved make the client feel like they're getting amazing service make the client that they feel part of the process and the second reason is for you to get your money at the end okay two fold so here are the pre consultation topics that I tend to discuss with my clients okay product style decor, personality pricing and expectations product what are your goals for your session would be shooting for I also ask wall portrait album specialty piece looks like dawn has a question just really quickly pre consultation different than client inquiry is this once they've booked and then we're doing the pre consultation or is this at the inquiry stage and you're finding out if they're a good client so you're doing a pre consultation for me? The pre consultation comes after they book not for everybody and I know I'm kind of giving you what you washing answer, but it could go both ways you a lot of high end photographers even just middle the road doctors like let the client come in for a free consultation before they book it's kind of like get the interview got the job kind of thing if you if you get the interview, you know you could get the job type of thing for me I'm in a different niche my mommies are either very pregnant and it's hard to get anywhere or they've just had the baby and it's hard to get anywhere okay, so I have modified my business model to do the consul to when they come in we kind of do it half on the phone and half when they come in in other words, we repeat ourselves, we do the constitution, the phone, and then again we do it in person like we really do double up and, like, repeat ourselves, but that's, the problem is clients and need you to repeat this stuff. So on the phone it's about getting them to book by connecting customer service, you know, many pre console, we asked him what product they're shooting for we we don't want to know what their goals are for the session, we kind of do this run down on the phone to make them feel like we're vested in them, which we are, but we don't we're not showing them products were not, you know, doing it in a really experiential type of way, it's about being a conversation on the phone, so we also talk about pricing on the phone, we talk about what our policy's are, and if at that point they're ready the book, that means they're a pre qualified client, okay, then when they come in for the session, we go over it all again. Okay, this is what we're shooting for. Is this what we talked about? Let's confirm this any new ideas? Yadi, yadi, yadi, yadi, yada so we almost do it twice now some photographers don't want to do it that way they want to like get the client a phone well, you know, one of the best ways to see for a good fit is to come in and meet with us and do a quick consultation complimentary and if it's a great fit well go ahead, book you then okay, great works but there's a flaw in that system for what I do those flaws are people don't show up for this free so they miss the appointment number two it takes time and you're not even sure they're gonna book where is the phone calls? A little bit faster it's more efficient, ok, we're pretty good at booking on the phone so we've kind of master that with our phone scripts and all the things we do for newborn babies so we don't really need to have them come in. I used to have my clients come in all the time and I knew that if I could get the interview I could get the job but I had lots of no shows there was no commitment so people didn't you know it was kind of it's risky. However, it is very solid if you get somebody to come in and want to talk to about the products they see everything you know, it depends on your personality but I was able to book them pretty pretty readily so you this is something you have to make determination with your own personality and how you want to run a business. But so to answer your question, I think either one is itjust depends on what you like. That's what we do. Okay, so product questions that you want to continue asking your client are, you know, kind of things like what wall do you envision? Hang a portrait? Where is it? What are your expectations or vision for the session? Highlight the fissure features of different art products and what on why they may want to choose some kind of art piece. So what is each question accomplishing here for both the client and for myself making them think playing the goat, planting the seed of the sale, getting the soft commission commitment to a product? Same thing here? Where do you want to hang? A portrait again? Planning the sioux, the sale giving options for what they should do with their images. In the end, what your expectations. I get to hear more about what they envisioned, which helps me get the clarity on the table, and also makes it look like to them that I'm very interested in what they think, and I want their input, which makes them feel important and courted, okay, highlight the features of different products, what am I doing selling? I'm tempting them eye candy, which means you better have samples in your studio good ones. Okay, style. We discuss clothing. Where will the session take place isn't gonna be the studio's going on location. Is there a sentimental place for the client? If you can shoot a sentimental place do it. You're going to sell more emotional connection to the location it's huge personal style are the casual, elegant, funky, eclectic formal. All these questions helped me with information, but more importantly, they make the client feel important to make the client feel like you really care about making their session the best it can be. What color schemes were you drawn to? Warm, cool, neutral if you could shop for clothing anywhere, unlimited budget, where would you go? Ah, woman who says anthropology versace, gucci is an entirely different woman she has a they those two women have entirely different styles, so I'm going to shoot those sessions a little differently. Yes, I'm going to do it with my creativity and my personal vision as an artist, but I'm going to adjust a little bit for her taste too. And when I say ask these kinds of questions, I'm basically implying to her that I very much care about making images for her that she will love of course, we advise on clothing choice for the session that works with the location and or they're natural coloring right? What about decor? Most photographers do not shoot for a final product that will be in a specific place in the home do they have to know but it'll up your game and roll up your sales and a little prove your brand what style is their home is an elegant contemporary rustic country traditional transitional, eclectic or modern there's more those are just a few ok, different women different houses shoot differently but with your own creativity and style. So for example um this one question the next one is a really good one. It works a lot for me. If you could shop for furniture anywhere on an island of budget where would you go? Pottery barn restoration hardware west on board a key where would you go? Different people I ke and restoration hardware well ho one hundred eighty degrees opposite I am restoration hardware. I love it. If I could shop my whole house in restoration harbor I would okay, that is me on steroids. Of course I'll go into and look at me like oh, this is so cool I love the way they do this. This is really neat, but it's technically kind of not me but if it is a woman who's come to me and wants a session, I am going to photograph her session with my style of restoration card or colors and textures, but I'm going to make it really clean really more modern, a little more ikey ish, so it'll fit in her home. I'm not changing my style just for her, but I'm making sure I'm cognizant of what her desires are and adjusting that in my session to reflect that. Does that make sense? One of the colors in their home aren't room? Did they envision a portrait or siri's of images? What are the lighting sources in the room? Where are they going to hang this and how is it going to be lit it's gonna be lit with daylight or tungsten lights? I'm not pick my colors differently, depending on how it's going to get him home and all these questions show the client that I'm extremely professional. I know what I'm talking about and this is finally planned down to a t all this implies is were pro and that's a good impression personality report tripp, I'm a portrait photographer same thing with weddings those is incredibly important with weddings you really want to understand the person you're photographing who are we photographing? Is that lifestyle are posed on location or studio? What unique character traits do you or your children have? What do you love about them? Just get in there shoes is all I'm really telling you are there special needs or personality characteristics that we should know about? Describe your vision for the session and what you most want to capture about your children huge one it's open ended and client can go off okay that's what you want? Are there any images on our website or facebook page that you are drawn to? This is a very important one. We were discussing this the other the other day I don't really do the little chin and hands or the scale shots anymore because they're composites, they take a lot of time and if they don't buy them, then it's a waste of time for me, okay, so but I do have it on my website still, and every once in a while someone will want that image if they say that, I need to tell them that it's an extra charge now, okay? And you'll see when we talk about pricing in the next few days. In fact, tomorrow I'm going to show you my pricing structure and you're gonna understand why I don't want to do these specialty shots for everybody and why there's an extra charge for it? So if they say something like that that I need to have that discussion with them, okay, so when I really encourage you to do is to make a consultation questionnaire, we do an online form okay, it has a all these questions are on the form, so not only do we ask them on the phone, but then we send them this information and say, fill it out, okay? It's a system to the questions, and then we make them elektronik lee sign at the bottom for it, which states? I have read the studio policies in liability release and they can click on it and read it right there. So they're signing electronically a portrait contract, a liability release and confirming everything that they just said in that questionnaire. It's funny how signing something makes you really make sure your answers are correct. Okay, so not only we talked about the phone, we've made them fill it out, and we've asked them to sign it, and that is huge. And then I use this form as a jumping off point for how we're going to do their session. So we use wufu dot com is our online question or form there's all kinds mac form there's all kinds of companies who do this you can find online. I would just teo questionnaire surveys suit search on google and really pick the one you want, but mac form is a good one. Wu fu is great, it integrates with male chimp, which is wonderful so my mailing list is all done in male chimp so when the client fills out one of these things and signs that they're automatically inputted into my male chimp accounts so I have their email address to be able to market to them in the future future promotions okay, now in the confrontation presenting your pricing is very, very important, okay, there are some photographers who will argue with me on that, so there are two schools of thought, which is okay, not neither one of them is wrong, however, for me, I needed to keep those surprises away, okay? I found that if I didn't provide pricing upfront in the sales room, I had a lot of p o clients and they felt had because they didn't know how much it was gonna cost up front. Why the heck they didn't ask is beyond me, but the point is they were frustrated with me and had a bad experience, and that is not good as we know, okay pricing, if you're going to ask your client to spend a thousand or more dollars on photographic art, they need to have a family discussion about it if your husband went out and bought a thousand dollar boat or your wife went out about a thousand dollars in spa day or whatever a luxury item, a non necessity, which is what we are going to be a little p o yeah, maybe like honey what do you thinking? Okay, they need to have a family discussion about it. Heather is of course always that I ps appointment where the husband and wife come in and that wife is all gung ho about the husband takes one look at the prices and goes are you crazy? Turns out she didn't tell him been there we'll talk about that in future lessons, but they need to have a family discussion about it. So if you surprise them with pricing, you're gonna end up disappointed. I'm also a huge believer of putting your pricing on your website. We were just discussing this this morning in the group in the facebook group ah girl asked he's like, I'm getting all this traffic to my site, but no one is booking and I went to her side and check it out. There was an about paige a portfolio blogged contact that's it so she was expecting her consumers to book based on seeing her portfolio and her about paige alone. When I look at the website, I'm trying to buy something if there's no price listed, I think it's too expensive for me and I don't even bother to inquire yep, so if you don't put your prices on your website not only are you telling people, I'm too expensive for you. Granted, of course, if that's the client you want to attract great, but you're not gonna get the phone to ring us much. It's not gonna happen quite as much if you put your pricing on your website, it weeds out the people who can't afford you, who really can't afford you so few thousand dollar average, the person who could afford you may think. Okay, sorry only backtrack so I can afford to spend a thousand dollars in portrait, but I don't see the prices on your website. I'm going to naturally assume thatyou're for five thousand dollars and I can't afford you when really, it would have been perfect fit. So if I do put my prices on my website and it says a thousand dollars if I could only afford five hundred, I'm not even gonna bother calling you right, which weeds out the extra I don't have time for your phone calls that you will get, so by putting your pricing, any website, you're really going to help pre qualify the clients who can't afford you. He need to sell the experience you need to put your pricing and your policies and everything on your site so people know the deal before they walked through the door, okay, super important so I'm a firm believer in putting pricing upfront because I want a soft sell I don't want a hard sell I want my clients to be happy I want them to leave the sale session feeling complete and like yes, maybe they spent a little more money than they wanted to which happens a lot but they're not disappointed they're not upset they're okay with it okay sometimes when I'm in a pre consultation and asking what the dean on the phone like we'll talk about pricing and is one of the last things we discussed of course, but I'll start describing how they can purchase allah card a credit collection I'll say allah car starts that starts at such and such and credit collection starts at such and such and I'll you know we'll feel it out sometimes I feel like uh well, you know, I know it's a large investment and custom photography is not for everyone if you'd like to come in and meet with us to see if it's a good fit and you'll see what products we do offer we're happy to meet with you in person and if it's borderline usually they'll come in and I want to see it in the minute they see the studio the minute they see the experience and because we sell on the website with pictures etcetera, etcetera, they go okay, this is going to be worth it the brand is high she's the best newborn photographer in town at such shoes everybody's refers her yada yada yada okay we'll do it all those factors contribute to a yes answer okay so pricing is important to get front they need to have that discussion you need to show options that will fit within their budget now if they really can't afford you then you don't want to decline anyway why waste your time on someone who's going to spend nothing so my pricing is set up to be my rock bottom dollar I will work for it's really cheap and we're raising our prices but the point is you know thatyou over time you start to get you like I want to do a cart for this much anymore I'm worth more than that and so you start bumping up your prices I raise my prices in four years so if they're going up actually in general but the point is is that if they are on a kind of tight budget we need to try to come up with options that'll fit within their budget now I don't mean change or pricing I don't mean lower your prices I mean try to work with and explain to them how they can fit things within their budget because they won't see it you see it all the time that you see every day you need to explain that to them and help them you need to imply that you'll be shooting for a specific product and that offers that soft commitment to the sale. So that product tie in your pricing, I think, is really important to put up front. And, of course, presenting your policies is super vital. It creates and confirms all expectations. It's the prenuptial agreement. Okay, it makes sure there are no surprises. This is my sandbox. You can come in and play and I'll create an awesome sandcastle for you. But you gotta follow my rules, my sandbox. Okay, so make your client's physically signed for your policies and model release and liability release don't get sued, okay, especially have a good liability release have scared people before. When I talked about this, I'm not sure I should want to scare you. He's like a thrill thrill seeker over here. Okay, so there's a story out of canada. Some of you may have heard it before. Family session next to river dad was holding the toddler client star for asked the client to step closer. The river kid squirm, found the river and died. Could reaction help? They got that on camera. I mean you're liable was a long time ago, was it? Last year? Another one similar situation bride, trash address, session, ankle, deep water dress got really heavy, pulled her ownership cringes kid just got hit on the train checks senior session don't shoot on train tracks just don't you was a photographer are liable for that. You better have a liability release that your client signed newborn babies student mind didn't shoot with an assistant one day turn around talk to dad baby startled selloff beanbag thank god maybe was okay she emailed me in a panic they don't get it but I don't know I don't like to have a liability release okay, now we'll protect you in every situation no, it will not protect you against negligence and things like that but it does help, so make sure you have an attorney make your liability race and make your clients sign it. Okay? I will not touch a baby. I will not even take the car seat without that contract signed. Okay, you know what's scary. Yeah, but microphone she's gonna get two here we go. Wow. So when you say physically do they downloaded off your website then and bring it in or can they just electronically sign it? This is a really great question and I need to tighten up my system right now they do it electronically. You can I need to switch to a different system to like doc you sign there are elektronik document companies out there that is illegal signature s o I need to tighten that up a little bit but technically there electronically signing for it but I need to make it legally binding war so so that's where our next step is so what'll happen is they'll click on the link sign it through doc you sign and then it's a buying your signature okay so like all contracts most contracts I do for speaking these days like with a layer of live they'll send me something through doc you sign and I have to electronically sonya and with banks and loans there now doing everything electronically so it is legal but so tighten her system okay? Yeah and or they if they don't sign it through the web site I have an extra copy at at the studio and I make him scient there okay? Okay here's the hard part clients sometimes aren't very smart, right? They don't read they don't listen and you just want to go out a client didn't fill up the contract. Did you read the preparation instructions? I can't she comes in and babies like she'd already fed the baby at home and everything was just a mess and I asked him, why did you fi oh yeah we fed him at home did you read the directions? Oh, no, I didn't open the email she hadn't signed that I mean really, you're making my life so much harder. So when I tell people is by filling out this paperwork and helping me get to know you and really discussing these things is going to help me provide better images for you, help us help you. So if you say it kind of like that in the true spirit of of, um what's his name, the sports guy. Help me help you, jerry maguire. Help me help you. I just think of that movie every time my clients don't do something, but yeah, you need to make it stick. So we tell him on the phone, they hear it. We show it to him on the document and we make them fill it out. So they do it. People have to hit all the senses toe, learn something. You students are the same way. Why do you think I'm telling you this, showing it and giving you a workbook and making you do it so it will stick? Because I want you to learn this stuff and I want you to succeed. And I want you to help you. Help me help you hit all three, and your client will get it sometimes not sometimes a sorrow still backwards, head in the clouds, especially newborns. Parents they are in la la land okay this is especially true with them they're overwhelmed they haven't had any sleep her hormones are going crazy you have got to make sure you beat her with a stick with this information okay it helps you get to the sale at the end I can always pinpoint that usually when I don't have a good sale says it's because the high screwed up in my communication ninety nine point nine percent of time if I have a crappy sail it is my fault okay saying how you say this stuff is half the battle when it comes to free consultations okay you need to learn how to communicate effectively and not only does this work the consultation but it works on that booking phone call okay because they're almost one in the same they're very closely related to one another you need to constantly think about asking open ended questions and this counts for my journalism days who what where when why work's fantastic why are you calling me pretty much what's your goal how do you envision this what your children like tell me about stay away from yes or no answers do you like anything our website will yeah okay I know you want them to elaborate but they won't you have to ask them to elaborate so open into questions are wonderful mirror your client verbally and non verbally keep your tone of voice in the same tone that they're in you know how like you'll be on the phone something to really quiet they're just really self spoken much you wantto mirror that because that's how they're comfortable so if you're like tell me you're trying to fill the space they're going to get more uncomfortable with you being woes girls on drugs or something okay always listen to what your client is saying and respond in kind so it's a dance it's a verbal and nonverbal dance with them to get the information across that you need to get to them and the impression you're trying to provide to them that you are a professional that you're going to be very going to care very much about their session as your vested into it and to get information from your client so you could better shoot a session for them that they will really love and when you have these conversations in the beginning and you produce the work for them that's what they expected anticipated based on the conversation you have a happy client okay connection commitment and confidence is the net result of a good consultation you've connected with your client you were recording them for a beautiful marriage they have offered a soft commitment to you and what they're going to do in the sale session and it gives you confidence and them confidence that this is going to be a good relationship which in turn provides that customer service see how the pieces of the puzzle are coming together? Your client understands the expectations of them. Your client understands the studio policies sandbox okay, I use this analogy a lot, but it works because we all think like two year olds really in our subconscious right? Your client is getting a great attentive experience. Your client has confidence in the session and its outcome because you have this conversation there more relaxed which will make it easier to connect with them in the session to they won't feels uncomfortable in front of the camera you understand your client and what they hope for your client feels listen to customization implies quality which raises your overall brand their client knows what to anticipate moneywise and product wife your client feels like you care about their session and that you're just emotionally invested in this process is they are the turf is equal, okay? These air all helpful things that do tons to elevate things do you see it? Are you doing it? No. Okay, what I love about pre consultation is that it gives me parameters toe work within creating a system. Okay, so when a client tells me they love warm tones gives me a launching off point I'm faced with all these creative decisions when I do a session I stand there from my props angle what do I pick where I go? Where do I start if I can see a client's home like they send me pictures or whatever beforehand which we asked for and I see the color tones and I see what she's answered on her questionnaire all of a sudden I have a launching off point in the direction to go which I know is going to work it's really nice it makes things not so overwhelming okay and it defines helps to find the system for what you're going to start shooting and combined that with the shooting techniques that we talked about in previous lessons that's enormously helpful and it sets an expectation for the session once you understand your client your sense of aesthetic will intertwine with theirs and it helps you it helps them and it gets them confident that this is going to be good and so when that happens planting the seed of the sale is the consultation okay the session is where you pour the water on the seed and if there's expectations that have been met everybody knows what's going on there's confidence in the session that little butt is going to come out really quick and the clients can start to get really excited about this process okay and once they see you shoot the images there going like oh my gosh this is gonna be good and the budget starts going up up, up, up, up, up, up okay combine that with solid customer service and a beautiful brand and you've got the recipe for goodness yummy nous so then when they come back for the ordering session and you're doing things in projection your product line is incredible they already kind of had a feeling what they want they see the images and they're excited by them because you've been good and have called them correctly and edit them consistently and everything is unique in variety they you are pretty overwhelming them with goodness which all benefits you right in the end then the I p s appointment is simply a matter of taking an order it's not selling I don't ever really sell and my I p s sessions it's just a matter of guiding my clients for the choices showing them the incentives that the pricing provides the pricing does the selling and you'll see my pricing model in the next segment tomorrow but that pricing model is what convinces them to spend more not me it's almost like I get to blame it on the pricing and so when that happens that pushes people to the average cell that we want the pricing is designed to get people to spend what I need them to spend it's designed that way it's called the art and science of pricing we're almost spending an entire week on this stuff okay so if you have pricing that makes the client go if we just spend three hundred dollars more look how much more we get so and john and I were talking about incentivizing we've just popped in a few incentives that all of a sudden have ballooned my sales an additional three hundred dollars a session so those little tweaks are things that as a business owner you're going to start falling in love with you like it was fun strategy puzzle pieces putting them together to make a whole how can I make people do what I want them to do but make them think that I'm only invested in them it's the dance okay, so pre consultations and your purpose I'm at the same time doing all this from my sense of why why I do what I do I'm sucker punching the client really in a good way if you really want to call it nasty, you could say I'm fooling them I'm not because I do everything from an honest heart and I truly believe in what I'm doing but technically I'm so pushing them in the direction that I want them to go yet they think that they're doing it to mei doesn't make sense so it's almost quite manipulative I mean if you really want to put a negative spin on it but I don't look at it that way I just look at it as me being in business maximum minimizing my profitability while at the same time providing something that I know it's so beautiful wonderful for my client I want them happy, authentically happy it's very important to me. Okay? Questions? You guys overwhelmed now? Okay, we need a microphone microphone over here. Let's, take some more questions when you are doing the priest consultation and you you get the clients ever who are like oh, I just love everything you d'oh I totally trust tio I don't know where shaw I'll how do you then get them? Tio understand that you need the more the perpetually indecisive. Yeah, the mom was just had a baby and it's like and they found slept in three days and I didn't I just want pictures of me o my friend got digital, so I think I guess I just need that. Yeah, they're annoying. Um, just nailing down sometimes with the perpetually indecisive and we're going to talk. We were doing a whole segment on client objections and weird people. You have to admit, some of your clients are weird. We're dealing with the public, right? Some of them are a little strange. I meant that with love, you know that, but yeah, with the perpetually indecisive, sometimes it's important to ask them yes or no questions, make them make decisions. So do you want a wall portrait? You know well, we shoot for a specific product in mind so if you're going to want a while portrait or an album, we're going to talk about that now so we can properly shoot for it. I don't want you to get to the organ appointment, then not be able to do what you want to do because we didn't we didn't plan for it, so explain the truth hurts. I always say the truth hurts, say the truth in a nice way, and they're bound to, like at least try to make some decisions, but I give them plenty of time to consider it, so if they're on the phone going, ah, I say, well, you don't even need to make a decision now, but I do need a decision before your session, junie, at least an idea of the direction that we're going, so think about it. Here's a few resource is here's a few things to look at pros and cons and that'll help you decide other questions for the people that can't come in for a pre consultation. So you're doing it over the internet and you send the questionnaire, do you send a pdf off the products are you offer so they can see everything that you're going to offer to sell so they know no, no it's too tools of thought on that, I have thought about doing that but what's interesting is it kind of was serendipitous type thing that happened, I knew I needed to do that in the beginning when I started setting up the system and I can't you know how you slack on stuff just stuff doesn't get done, and so I didn't do it. I have an abbreviated pricing guide on my on my site that lists a few starting prices for products. What happens is they come into the studio oh, and it's like a kid in a candy store, and that impression provides such an emotional response that it actually worked out working to my advantage. So when they come in for the session, we kind of do a mini console again, and I say to them while we're at the session, I want you to look around at some of the things we offer here and kind of think about what might work for you if you have any questions will be happy to answer it during your session, so they come in, they know I'm shooting and they're being inundated at the same time with all these pretty things around studio that they're looking around, the awards air up on the walls, there is getting an impression of the brand as they move through the space. Plus an idea of the product line so initially when they booked on the phone there impression of me was oh, she takes great pictures and we can afford it and this is nice and we have a connection they come in the door they see my credentials on the wall they see all the awards, they see the beautiful work they see the customized products they start walking through and they go every day single person I mean belinda kind of testing they go ah this's so pray I mean that's the reaction every single client has when they walk through my front door and it's a wonderful that's exactly where I want it right there that impression and you're gonna actually when we looked at the customer service one you saw that in the client they came in and they were like, this is awesome such a pretty space they all say that and then the emotion goes is the psychological guys I'm playing with their brain, so if I had shown products to begin with, could they have been a little bit more prepared? Yeah, is it a crisis that they aren't? No, the effect of that is when they come in and get on that emotional high they're more excited by the merchandising and they want to buy here's an analogy here on north terms website you're looking for a dress, okay you're looking around you know you know you can't really shop online but you're looking around it kind of only that black dress is pretty well like the one that sparkles in the sequence okay so then you go into nordstroms you see the dresses like okay that's the one I want to try that one on if you've never seen it before it's kind of like the idea of not showing images before they see the before they see the cell session if I go into nordstroms I'm not going to be focused on that one thing I'm going to be so it actually worked to my advantage serendipitously I didn't mean for this to happen so now I don't put my entire product guy guide online on purpose because I want to have that emotional gut shopping reaction in a woman because we all do it I mean you guys have all done it you know what it's like especially if you like to shop you go into a good store and men have experienced it too you go into like cabela's or say your fly fisherman you go in a beautiful fly fishing stories start to get all giddy and excited it's all the little flies on the walls you know it happens to all of us it's marketing promotion merchandising there are degrees in merchandising okay there are degrees we're gonna talk more about this tomorrow when we get into products and pricing but you're hot real estate on your wall should have the best products on it and if you don't have a studio, there are ways around it and I'll say this again tomorrow but restoration hardware classic example they do not have a store in my town there is no retail place to go to frustration harbor but boy did I get them started catalogs every year and I'm keeping all year long look at him because they're so pretty and inspires me but I want my studio to look like that in bed at night you know I keep the restoration harvard catalog because it's so beautiful and it's so engaging and it shows me what my life could be like if only I shopped at heart restoration heart so if you're on location spent the money and make yourself a good product catalog that rivals restoration hardware. Okay, obviously it's not gonna be like ten inches thick like there's a but you get my point in those places like got print dot com who print beautiful magazines for you at a relatively reasonable rate if you want to make hard copies and distribute them to places that have displays and or give them to a client and what about making a pdf version email so they can have it on their on their ipad? I knew a lot of photographers now who are putting their product guides on laptops so when the sale session are not laptops on ipads so the sale session the client comes they get to hold the laptop the ipad and scroll through the product talk about high tech and a neat brand cool but you were senior photographers that's a great idea okay, so I think there's two schools of thought I'm taking a long time to answer a question but I think there's two schools of thought and I don't I think it's six on one side half a dozen on the other it's really just a matter of what works for you and how you want to prepare your client but for me I like the element of surprise because I have the power to do that with my space in the way with merchandising we've branded it if you don't have that might you wanted you know show products advance maybe but if there's one thing I can one hundred percent with certainty tell you you must do you need samples? Yeah she's going I don't have samples when I figured that out cause I didn't either I didn't enter and when I figured that out it was so fun to see the change in my clients so I can tell you yes it costs a lot of money to do it uh course it does but it's the single most return on investment you can do because when you show and make sure they're good because when you show your client exactly what it's going to be like, they need to see it that's why pro selected so powerful because you can show your client's exactly what you want to sell and you guys have heard that adage in day in day out for your entire lives as photographers show what you want to sell that is clich aid for reason it really is it's cliche for a reason cause it's absolutely true you need to have beautiful products on your walls in your space in your product catalog if I wasn't on location for a photographer I would be bringing my catalogue with me along with smaller samples of albums as matter fact I would probably think about selling albums exclusively for me I love them they're easy to carry, they're customized they're beautiful, they don't require wall space and the kids can have him later when you've kicked the bucket you mean implies a lot of value I love albums personally so if I wasn't on location fault photographer I would specialize in albums gorgeous catalog of all these albums sitting in these beautiful spaces and bring samples with me because I can do that to their home to sell on location talk about unique baby books day in the life of books, simple albums, complex albums you could have so much fun with this and provide especially product you shooting for it every time the client knows that damn you're done, they're gonna have a great solo matter what? And you will attract the clients who love that concept to in that why yes, microphone okay, when you present your pricing in the pre consultation how much of your pricing are you showing? Because you obviously have variables I mean let's say I sell framed wall art and I want to sell a wall collage I have twenty different set designs over whatever your furniture is and whatever your spaces do I do a starting at or I mean, when you when you're presenting it upfront to be honest about this is where you're launching off, you're going to come and spend x amount of dollars? How much information do you give them upfront and not be overwhelming? But, um a factory forward make caviar this by saying I only want clients who could afford me, so I am more than happy to flat out tell them on the phone what I cost, but you also have to understand that the branding and the marketing and the knowledge of me and my community is enough now that I don't have to worry about let's just put this way. I know I'm unique in my market, I know I'm not a commodity does that make sense? So I know I can charge appropriately for my work and that I don't and that people will spend it does that make sense so when a client calls and I say digital files pretty collection starts at six hundred sixty dollars most clients spend between eight hundred twelve hundred other session but they walk away with it all they walk away with all their images on disk and an art piece of some kind that we create for them the client immediately goes oh so I get everything at that price yes do they know they think they do but I have sell them remember my bell curve I want everybody in here spending between on their products include chester v it's just includes products between eight and twelve hundred dollars is this that's my happy place okay so if I could guarantee that everybody who comes in we'll spend that I'm going to predict my income I'm gonna be able to budget for stuff and I'm gonna be able to pay my overhead expenses with no problem all I gotta do is figure out how to get the number of clients in the door correct so that's why the selling system was created so that my peace impact the average along with getting happy client okay so yes when they call I am telling them on the phone I don't say oh here specific products I am saying to them we have two ways to invest in portraiture you can either choose your top select digital files in low resolution for three ninety five or you could do create a collection which is what most of our clients teo that gets you all of your images on disk plus an art piece starting at six sixty you should know that most clients spend between eight hundred twelve hundred other session does that sound like it fits within your budget yes or no no okay understand custom photography is not for everyone I can certainly refer you to someone else who doesn't actually specialize a newborn photography but who can handle your needs? Well one of the reasons we're price the way we process because we're fully trained to handle newborn babies in safety we've shot almost five hundred babies in our career we are a set of professionals there's always an assistant on hand were fully prepared to handle your child as if we were nick nick you nurses maybe I should put you okay so I don't have a problem saying exactly how much I cost do I say allah canvass a six fifty okay if somebody asks directly how much is a twenty by twenty four campus I'm going to tell them if people have been on the phone and go oh I'm not really sure I want you I need to talk my husband plastic response sometimes we go ok lot that one click you know but you have to learn to be okay with that and when you think about strategizing the pumpkin plan in your business you don't care about that diseased gord it's affecting the other pumpkins this is a hard moment to get to I had a photographer jennifer who's in texas and help me and she said you know my husband is freaking out because I want him to market seniors so we can get higher paying senior clients but he wants to do the smaller projects that bringing cash because we need money so bad well yeah of course I mean of course I don't blame him he needs money okay but he also needs higher paying clients to grow a nice big fat pumpkin so we're going to catch twenty two right? What do you do? You have a couple options number one you systemized the smaller sessions so there quick and dirty and fast and still make you that one two three thousand dollars per session that you need okay, you hire somebody for cheaper who couldn't do those train them pay them twenty bucks an hour. Okay, so it's a five hour job that cost you a hundred bucks yet you still made two or three thousand without having to do it yourself which gives you time open to do your real projects that you want to d'oh okay hire somebody on a contract basis they only work when you work these air solutions you have to think entrepreneur lee to solve your problem to put your assets were their most important to put your asta assets where the greatest return on investment think like a business person it's all about making your time and your money make more money does that make sense? Ty answer question I totally went on a rabbit trail so the big question that you're asking is do I tell my pricing on the phone to clients I'm trying to get to book do you get specific in the console let's say they come in for a console or or on the phone the canvas is you did answer that question again this is your prince start at eight eight by ten starts at what? One twenty five I don't sell my right hand's okay, yeah so the smallest print they can get sixteen by twenty which starts at two sixty five that answers my question ok? Yes if somebody comes in for a consultation and they want to see exact prices you betcha that studio pricing guide you just saw a picture of its in a studio anybody can look at okay on the phone. Of course I'm not gonna hide pricing no way find what's new with prices you betcha. Here you go. I'm not that's a game I don't play because to me it's leaving awkward and hard selling and the client thinks you're being manipulative and I don't want them to ever think that okay, everything is opening up front on the phone no, I don't have a place they could go for specific prices on specific prints in specific products but I am very open I say this is what you get this is what it starts out and you get all your files on disk and that's really the only thing they care about ysl darn digital files do they get them all or not that's what they want to know and how much is it so if I tell them that price and say you get him all on credit collection plus an art piece that would be pretty for you starting at sixty single okay, that sounds great. They come in they realize really quickly that that budget is out the window because the merchandising, the branding all the key eye candy how we're treating their baby the level of customer service the overall value the brand they realize quickly and they see all the products like okay, minimum is not where we want to go we want some cool do they all changed their mind? No. Do I have six hundred sixty dollars taels? Yes about ten percent of the time but that is the rock bottom dollar price I am willing to work for including the session fee which is to twenty five south puts me at about nine hundred, eight hundred per session with a session fee okay, I would much rather work for an average of eight hundred procession for proper products only. Ok, so that would put my averaging around eleven hundred or my minimum, my rock bottom minimum at eleven hundred. Okay, so that's, much more what I would do. So I'm adjusting things and change things. We haven't change prices and for years, so they're going to go up a little bit now. Will I lose some clients? Yes. Do I care? No, I have my eggs in other baskets, okay? And I want to be seen as an exclusive brand, and I honestly think that my guess I don't know, we'll see what happens. I don't know if I want to say this out loud, some nervous that it won't happen. But my guess is that, as I charge, more, people will want me more.