Personal Growth and Understanding with Citizen Cope
I love you. Hey, what's up, however, is doing a chase. Jarvis, your good friend here I am coming at you live from my cabin a couple hours north of Seattle. Very, very happy to be in your ears today. I'm super excited for our guest here. Um hey, Adam. Just so you know, I'm getting echo on my headphones. Um, but very, very excited to ah announce a very special guest here shortly before we do. Ah, I would love to know where you're tuning in from around the world, but I know where to book live. Facebook page to, ah, YouTube. And of course, at creative live dot com slash tv. If you want to comment or ask some questions of the guest, I'd recommend you go to creative live dot com slash tv. You can click live, chat in the upper right hand corner and ask no questions. I'm seeing all those things in real time and can ask question of the guests that we're looking forward to your participation. And in the meantime, let us know where you're coming in from. I'd love to give a shout out to you in you...
r country or city. Wherever you're representing today, but without further ado would like to get into today's guest very, very excited. And it's been fun. Um, this was supposed to be an in person conversation. Ah, and this artist was supposed to be on tour right about this time. But as we know, the world has changed. Um, but I will tell you a little bit about him. He is a renowned artist and musician. Eyes played all over the world. His single Let The Drummer Kick went platinum with virtually no support for commercial radio. The Washington Post called him DC's finest export since Marvin Gaye, which, if you're in the same companies, Marvin Gaye that is something to be said. And Rolling Stone has raved that his uncommon chords and harmonies combined delicate dissidents with the unexpected flashes of beauty. Individual albums from this artist have sold more than 700, copies. Ah, his latest album dropped in March of heroin and helicopters, which I just played this morning, sitting up here for a little family cabin and drank an entire pot of coffee. So I'm ready to go, uh, got a new single that just dropped today from this particular artist. His name is Clarence Greenwood, but he goes by the name of Citizen Cope, and it gives me great pleasure to welcome him to our virtual stage. Cope. How you doing today? I'm good, man. Thanks for having me today. It's an amazing opportunity to have you on the show. Very, very, very happy. And congratulations on the new single. Um, scared of heights Just dropping today. Super super excited. I watched that announcement from you on Instagram What's it been like to ah, drop a new ah single in this crazy time? Well, I wrote the song a while ago and recorded it against last year sometime and I just felt I've been kind of waiting to kind of get maybe some license replacement of some kind of campaign behind the song cause I feel really strong about it. And when this came, it just seemed like such an important song for the time's right Now, Scared of heights deals with kind of overcoming fear, and I was kind of it in a place or on a block where I wanted to express, um, how fear kind of motivates a lot of us and, um, there's a point that it stops working. So I think that in the song kind of addresses that and kind of facing your fears and overcoming your fears during diversity. And I felt like that was kind of timely right now perfectly timed. Couldn't have been better. And ah, it brought me a lot of joy this morning together I mentioned. And I'm up here. Ah, secluded in a little family cabin. I couldn't no better place for me to take it in. Um ah. Let's talk about the, um the writing of the new single that just dropped today. Ah, what's your process for something like that? Was that, um, shortened? Did you did it all come to your ah, at one at one sitting? Or is this something that has evolved over, um, over the last several months and weeks? Well, I kind of I wrote it in one particular fashion, and I was on the road and ah, Chris Bars, who works with me, had had brought this guitar lately, which is a small little instrument. It's like this. It's like a ukulele, but it's a guitar, it's got six strings. And I'd written the song kind of put down a rough draft of it. And, um, I started playing with that, and that seemed to really work better. And I went back and recorded it just with the guitar and vocals, and it pretty much writing this song was pretty fast and then recording it, Um, it was just one of those songs that happened. I felt really good about it. You know, it could happen a 1,000,000 different ways. You can sit there and struggle over a mix or struggle about ah performance, you know? But, you know, a great record like recording of a song usually requires there to be a great performance. Um, a great sound, whatever that sound is, even if its lo fi, um, it has to sound like, sound like it. It's sitting somewhere. It has a home man. Uh, then also, you got your production as well. You know, when the song is really important. But if you know, it's not as easy to make a great recording as we think. Otherwise we would you know, everyone could record Beatles songs forever and and, uh, have big hit records. But they just don't match up with, um, you know, even those those air Amazing songs. When you try to re record, you know, a classic. It's not always easy. So I would take my hat off to people who can do covers and kind of make them their own. Speaking of covers, um, I heard Ah, Carlos Santana cover one of your tracks. What's that like to have someone of of his his stature and place in music history be playing your music? Was that something a. Did you know about that? And B, is that something that makes you proud? Or is that is that expected? What your thoughts on, Ah, heaven people like that cover your tracks. No, it's completely not expected. I mean, when something like that happens, Carlos was just coming off his biggest record, Uh, ever was called Supernatural. So, like 24 million records. Ah, he was following up with a record called Shaman, and everyone was trying to get on that record because it it, you know, Carlos doesn't write his own songs. So every songwriter and producer and you know every song had like three or four songwriters and big producers, and I'd written the song for the Clarence Greenwood recordings already and it was already done for my next record. Um, and And Carlos really loved it and he asked, uh, from permission, it to put it on his record, but we didn't know it was actually going to make it. So I went out there and and recorded and ended up making it like the day before I found out. I think they were maybe just stalling me, so to cut some kind of better deal. But it made the record. And I'm so grateful for that opportunity because even though it was supposed to be for my record and eventually ended up on my record without Carlos, uh, it was a great experience. I got to go with studio over Carlos and record his guitar and do some percussions and a little bit of Oregon on it. And, um, it was an interesting perspective because, uh, uh, my stepbrother, when I was growing up, was a big Carlos Santana fan. It was always a really giving, so he would kind of look out, you know, send Christmas presents. We didn't live together, but, um always looked out. It was two years older than me and just had a big heart and a lot of empathy. And, um, he would always remember us and everything in a one year, I was like, You know, he's always done so much, and I it's a big cause of in the bottom of Carlos Santana record and send it to him for Christmas. And, um, unfortunately, he passed away like like, five months later, Um, And you know who's very young at the time, Uh, in the and, you know, not to turn things too dark, But I know a lot of people deal with this, but, um, or can identify with this, But he took his own life and, um, at a very young age. And when Carlos asked me to play on the record, it was a just Oh, wow. I get to get this is gonna get a lot of spotlight. But it had somewhat of a spirituals significance, and that makes sense. Do toe Carlos is kind of dedication to the spirit in the in the universe and and unknown in the supernatural. Yeah, thank you for for sharing that, um I just want you to let toe let you know that we have people tuning in from all of the world. South Africa. Ah, Copenhagen, Wyoming. Um, by gosh, New York, Baltimore, Maryland, Texas, Maine. Um, to say the ah, the Internets. Going crazy to be on the broadcast TV with you would not be an overstatement. Um, even Ah, even someone here saying that they, uh your your song was First song played at their wedding, and they invited you, but they they figured you were pretty busy and didn't have a chance to get back to them. But, um, so suffice to say, the Internet is alive and well, And, um, once you know that there behind you and grateful for for your last album heroin, heroin and helicopters and, of course, a single that you dropped today. And I know we're going to hear a little performance from you shortly. But I did want toe, um, represent the Internet and ask a question that's come in, um, from a couple different channels right now. And it is how are you managing in? Ah, in this crazy time that we're in right now, the world wants to know. Well, I'm just trying to take it, you know, one moment at a time. I I kind of have been so constantly asking for a little bit break because I've been touring so hard over the last 15 years, and I had a great tour plan I, like, kind of culminated into this amazing tour happening from April toe through May and that all got postponed and changed. And so that was kind of a bummer, because I had, uh, a lot of great plans, and it was kind of, Ah, a majority of you know what I'm working on. Some really great theaters have red rocks sold out, which was about 77 2 days before. So some really beautiful venues, The more theater in Seattle, Uh, there was, you know, some great, so great places that I like to play. So, uh, that was a disappointment, but really, I look at, uh, my main focused on this whole thing is just other people will be. I see so many of the places that I go to some of the mom and pop restaurants. I usually don't, um, you know, go to a commercial or a corporate any anything's hotels or restaurants or anything like that. I try to stay away from that and support independently owned, uh, mom and pop organizations. So a lot of the places that I go to, I really not just the places that I go to the places that took a chance. The people that took a chance toe go after their dream and not, um, and go after their whatever they're doing. And they provide such an amazing service to assault because they're the ones that make things cool before they're cool. You know, that's the shop that Okay, now they turn to chain into this type of thing because they realized there was still much stuff s so much support of it. And, um and not just that, you know, the nineties plus percent of people that live paycheck to paycheck and don't have any savings. And I I was very concerned on, you know, how people would survive. And, you know, that's also turned into just having a lot of gratitude for the people that have actually worked. And, you know, Bennett, the restaurants doing delivery, or at the grocery store, checking out people who are out there working during this stressful time and also putting themselves at risk. So my focus was pretty much on others at the time. Um, you know, you do art, and as much as you, you have to, you know, because we live in a capitalist excited as much as you have to be aware and of your your own business and your own and providing for your own family, I think, Innate Lee, we all go to it for more selfish reason, which is to get some this amazing, uh, this amazing kind of, uh, in result of what it feels like to do something artistic and have it come together. I think where it's all like, we're all you know, it's almost like, Wow, this really happened and how many steps it took to do that. That's really the payoff in the achievement of it. And sometimes, like, Well, I did this and then nobody, you know, it was like a tree falling in a forest. Nobody heard it. But, um, I think that you know what time is the on the artist side And I read a quote recently about that article in the Atlantic, and it was Jenna Auto. Remember the guy that was written, But it was recently and two riders interviewed each other and, uh, old gentleman and he he said that, you know, pretty essentially, you know, art can overcome all this stuff, and and art is on, you know, kind of timeless and has the ability to be timeless. And one thing about music is if you make the right song, it can live forever, and it can affect people in a really good way. Like you said, somebody got married to the music and, um, that's happened so many times over the years, and I'm just grateful that that it's inspired people like that. And I'm very grateful that it's, you know, supported me in my family as well. But it's incredibly inspirational here. You talk about your work. Ah, and especially saying that art has the power of saving and art has the power of motivating us and getting us through tough times, both on the creation side of it and on the consuming side of it. So, um, with that, I wanted to ah let you perform a little bit of your art and ah, we haven't rehearsed what song we're gonna play. I just know that you got a few cute up and your special. So you let you take it from here and ah, plays what? One or two or three tracks, whatever you like. And then we'll be back with some questions from around the world. Viewers tuning in I'm Chase were great of live dot com slash tv with the one and only citizen Cope All right, this is the new single Scared of heights feature in my guitar lately. I think they way for the O It's so way Dio dio way uh, e o It goes to thinking very smooth to be Oh, it's way it's way, way All right, Thank you. Wow. Ah, I don't know how the internet collapse, but, um better That's going crazy. Said stunning. Stunning. I'm gonna I'm gonna stay quiet and let you ah, Blake up with more if you're willing to Oh, yeah, All right. Looking for somebody? I found this brand new something with my There's so much trouble way so much a treat on sir But you know number postive will be she better yesterday Oh, it will be a justice. Um, started by what was but what he Oh, I found looking for somebody found brand chopped with this soul parts trouble here in the world so much number she Teoh about just is about what bodies start. About. What? Start about next step justice. What about What's that? When it's not about the next step, That just is. It's not about what was button about What? Oh, okay. Yeah. Wow. Um, man, thank you so much. Anne Marie Shannon. Sara Elizabeth. Melody Ryan. Sarah Joy. Um, Melissa Justine. All clapping virtually and grateful for you sharing your music with us here today. Um uh, I shared it to be in the broadcast. I had the chance to listen to the last album, um, heroin helicopters straight through this morning. Of course. I listened to a bunch of it before since it came out, but to be able to display it straight through there is just an incredible arc that, um that the album follows and it seems to me just so incredibly self aware and almost curious. If you could tell me what role does self awareness play for you? Ah, as an artist and and with your music in general. Well, thank you. Go back and forth with it. You know, it's one of those things that kind of feels your art. I think artistically, you go into something and you're you're so kind of in the moment when you're creating it. And then anything great that is calm has come out of that self awareness throughout. Whatever. I don't know if it's self awareness, but being in the moment in a meditative state and doing something that you're kind of mind is shut off and then you finish this song and him just to go is like, Well, how do I get this to people? And, uh, that's from the self awareness. Um, early on, kind of, uh, doesn't do you, You know, that's when it goes out the window like, Well, and you end up you know, I thought about it recently like I've I've never had a problem with what up stood up for, um, as faras, like how been treated in the music business. Or, you know, people that have taken advantage and your music business is a very, um, can be a very rotten business, like historically, it's stolen from the artists and you know that that's that's, you know that's documented well documented over time. A lot of times they try to make it seem that the artist is the one that's difficult or, you know, deveau are this and that. But the fact is that, you know, most managers and, uh, record executives have and complicity in, basically, you know, stealing from artists. And, you know, there's a few managers that really, really are worth their weight in gold. And I think they've, you know, grateful that they've had a real partnership with their artists. You know, like the John Lando's of the world. Um, you know who has Bruce Springsteen? Um, and there's great executives that you really need record executives, sometimes to help shape your care, career and building. You built, build you up, Um, and and the system is important. But the actual system of somebody controlling artists is is you know, the artist is usually look, that is the bad guy if he stands up for himself. So I never feel like, Ah, I don't regret any of the ways that I've stood up or, you know, the fact that I've stood up for myself, whether it be with a promoter or an agent or a record company or anything related to the business side, Um, but I've had this pleasure with myself on how I did it. Um, so over the years, that self awareness kind of may have taken a back seat in those circumstances. So I've been really working on or acknowledging the fact that that self awareness has toe kind of be where? Where I'm writing that song. I'm in that president moment thing there. I can't let I can't lose that. You know, I gotta be like Michael Corleone. Just keep cool. Great reference. Yeah, Um, we're creativelive. We try and champion artists who have that fierce independence we've had. A number of folks have shared the tribulations of having to sue their own record companies. Your letter. I was on here talked about that. Macklemore going independent. Zoe Keating, the cellist being independent, Um, your you've somehow been able to navigate this fierce independence with, you know, for your art and still be the recipient of mainstream success. So there's some How have you navigated that? And is there Ah, is that looking outward looking inward? You know, there's a lot of people who are listening right now that are conflicted with that because they want to achieve commercial success. They want to be admired and respected. by their peers and on the cover of a magazine. But it seems like you are one of the few that have been able to navigate this success. Um, is this outward, overt success and also artistic integrity? Um, how have you managed those two things together? But I think it just comes from what you're saying. That artistic integrity, it's is something that you have to put in and you have to feel good about when you put it out and let those who who it's meant to be for be the ones that champion it and I've never had. Like I said, I never had a top. Our radio charting, um song, uh, you know, I've had some success. It's on, you know, non commercial stations, but not even like even then. That's kind of the lowest realm of radio. And, uh um, trip is a triple a kind of non commercial, and I never charted on this Triple H R, which is not even with Sideways bulletin a target. Someone's gonna rise and let the drummer kick, which are all gold singles. But they never you know, the majority that people never played them, and, um, and I'm grateful for those who did, but ah, the Clarence Greenwood recordings never spent a week on the Billboard chopped 200. So not one week did it. Sell is well, as you know, of the top 200 artists. So it took 12 years for that record to go gold, which is 500, copies. So it was never like Flash and always thought, well, making it quote making It would get that big splash and Grammy nominations and all this kind of stuff. But that's just not the way it worked out for me. And But I know I have friends that have big radio hits, and you know, they can't go out and play shows now. And I think if you really look at it, if if you want a long you know, it would be great to have both, like Toe have mainstream success and ah, a long term career. But, um, I've been ableto to figure out kind of been labeled truth and kind of the normal ways that people do what I was able to figure out a way to do it, to still be able to play and provide, you know, music for people out there. And but it's never been. It's not an easy road. You know everybody. You know, everybody looks at that. The ego thing was, So I want to be on the cover of Rolling Stone and you know, everyone would love Teoh or even, you know, get a decent inter review by Rolling Stone. But, uh, it's that those kind of days are those days are over where it's like, you know, print really doesn't matter that much anymore. And they made themselves kind of it kind of took themselves out of the ballgame. Bye bye. Not champion riel Artists on champion things that sell right away. Well, thank you so much for being the guiding light to ah, to me and so many who look up to you as someone who has been able to manage that, keep their artistic integrity in place, um, and still provide a living for themselves and for you and your family, for example. Ah, it's so refreshing. And is it your belief that that we're moving away from that mainstream? And now we're seeing this this decentralization because here we are. I mean, we've got thousands of people tuned in from all over the world on all kinds of different platforms. No, no. Record executives is just, you know, you down in L A and me up in Seattle here with the Internet connection. So is that is that more the future or are you Are you, um how do you view the future for? For musicians and other artists? Um, you know, is it ripe or should we be worried? I think this kind of thing definitely is gonna is gonna kind of maybe bring the middle class back toe where, like it became like this. You know, if you could compare it to a division of class like the super wealthy and then the broke And there there was always a great amount of artists that kind of lived in a middle upper middle kind of area. Not financially. But this is far as being able to sustain themselves. Uh, that you never heard off. So and there was always the underground kind of comes up and becomes mainstream. That dad paradigm is still What's interesting is I like to see how the streaming thing really plays out, because every time I hear somebody say the same thing at every single meeting, and I realize that something's not gonna happen with this, Um and that that key will Spotify and everybody every meeting. You goto Oh, yeah, we can get to Spotify playlist. We can get you this and that and Spotify Spotify and depending their whole revenue on Spotify. And that's because a lot of the majors own a piece of Spotify and have kind of the leverage on what Spotify needs, which is the content. And therefore you have, ah, great amount of of of, you know, putting too many eggs in that one basket. So I don't know that the stream, whatever streaming it is, apple or Amazon or whatever. Uh, they're still kind of controlled by the big players and then you can always hear about Oh, and this person came out of soundcloud, but you didn't hear about until they kind of joined with the major company. Evening you mentioned Macklemore like his big ascension came when he finally, you know, went to the Warner Brothers system. You know, we started in that independently, but once it caught some heat and they realized it was going to do something, you know, they pushed on the the that they pushed the button at Warner Brothers and not to take anything away from because, you know, it was an amazing thing that he did. Uh, but you have. I think they're still gonna be the people that you need a campaign with, and they're stopped it like this is gonna become an equaliser in the playing field. But we're still being controlled by the system. I think in a lot of ways because, you know, they gotta figure out a way to monetize it without relying on advertisement in this kind of thing, which is, like, kind of what you know, I want to be able to pay an advertiser. You know, I want to be ableto pay somebody to advertised. I don't wanna have to rely on somebody and advertisers paying me I wanna be able to pay for for, you know, advertising my shows or my record or whatever I want to pay for to advertise. I don't want, you know, worry about advertising paying me because then it artistically it's better go hand in hand. You know, it's better toe, have customers spend it. I have a real fan base that you can actually interact with. And I think that's starting to happen where you kind of get a direct contact with your people. Yeah, I think that it's, um, well said, And to me, that's the future hope, right? This this direct connection that we have with the people that appreciate our music. Ah, and I'll just let you know that Sarah and Lisa are telling people to stop what they're doing and complimenting you on music being pure soul. That's Michael coming in from YouTube. Um, just you get the whole world cheering you on here behind us today. Um, I want to shift gears and talk a little bit about your process. Um, go back to the process of writing the album heroin and helicopters, which be great. If you first told us the namesake of the album. I read a story about how that name came to be, but tell us a little bit about how that name came into being. And then what was your process for creating that? Um, well, years ago, when I was doing sideways, uh, and Carlos Santana wanted the song on his record. He came to the show I was doing at the Fillmore and San Francisco, and he came backstage and he says, Excuse me, whatever you do, stay away from the two ages. And I was like, What are the two ages? And he said, Heroin and helicopters. He says, Don't do heroin and don't find helicopters. And, uh, you know, I guess, Um obviously the heroin reference. But Bill Graham and Stevie Ray Vaughan and passed away in the helicopter and, you know, we had some close people to him, Uh, not make it. And so years later, I mean, it's 15 you know, 16 years ago and I was thinking about what I was gonna name the album and I felt like that I actually had a story to it because it was still relevant now. And it seemed like we were dealing with this crisis in this opioid epidemic. And, you know, people get on the opioids and then you know those air hair that's, you know, heroin, derivatives. And then they go back to using heroin and and it becomes, um and we've lost a lot of people with us. You know, a lot of my periods of music you have passed away for overdosing and that loan. We all have family members and friends who have suffered. Um, you know, a lot of us ourselves head, you know, had overcome some sort of addiction. Uh, and it wasn't just when I thought about the album, I wasn't even thinking just about substance abuse. I was thinking about the addictions, who are, you know, cell phones to social media, and it kind of these things that are taking us away from real human interaction and, um, also addiction to kind of conflict. And it's like we're so addicted right now. The conflict where we can easily type off something and say something nasty over the Internet or even you don't address somebody that we love about something that they don't want to hear. Um, we might have the tendency to say it not in the most empathetic way, because a lot of times it's great to be able to tell us something they might not want to hear if if you're close to somebody, but it's like, you know how you say it. Ah, and with our political differences right now going on in the world like I think I was in Brazil and it's kind of like it seems like everywhere in the world has somewhat of a similar dynamic, with one side thinking this. And then there's this uprising of this and it's taking too much of our attention. Uh uh, politics, which is, you know, to me, it's like I've always had a social awareness of what's going on and dreams and aspirations. I've always wanted there to be a better education system, and I felt like, you know, we could cure certain diseases easier. But, you know, when we were operating on this low frequency right now where we're all just arguing about this politician in that politician and why this guy's better, it doesn't. It takes Are we using an immense amount of energy that we could use to cure cancer? Have a great educational system kind of concentrate on the things that we all want for our Children and for humankind? And we could make these amazing leaps and bounds and humankind if we actually just address those six wins instead of like pointing fingers at each other and I go, you're wrong. I like this guy like that guy. I'm dealing on a person, and it's almost become personal. So at that point, it's really not about. There's no victory in that, Um, and so in the helicopters part was kind of just dealing, you know, And one thing I wanted to add about that is back to the heroin thing is like we we all can learn a great deal from people who think differently than us. And, you know, there's friends of mine that, you know, have guns in this kind of thing. I don't really and I never had a gun, but there's conversations you can have like OK, well, that doesn't make him our enemy. There's people that taught, you know, they're not be somebody who taught me how to tie their shoes, and I dont. So when I grow up, I don't sit at the table when I have disagreements with them or not, or just differ from them politically, socially, racially or religiously, so we can have all these differences. But the fact is, I learned something from my life, and, uh, and the heroin part is kind of deal. I mean, the helicopters part is kind of there were in a rush to get somewhere, and we're always in a rush and it's like, Okay, we're not really taking in what's going on. And, you know, we've been taught in the society to get more and get more and more, and you keep chasing that thing and the reason I bring it up because I've been guilty of it myself. And what can I do? Mawr warm or not really enjoying the moment and realizing that we are at our destination and we're already there. But you know, there's things that we can do to get somewhere else. But we can't be so car traded on getting there, you know, because then when when we get there, we're not even going to enjoy it. If we can't enjoy where we are now, you know. So it's like it's like a bank account or something you like. If you can't save $10 when you're making no money, then you know if you get a $1,000,000 you're gonna spend that 1,000,000 to so that with the title now it's I love the depth and you consider your values or so reflected in the title. And I think that's one of the things I've always admired. Ah, about you as an artist your values Seems like you lead with them. I was first acquainted to your music. Speaking of the more hotel and in the indie radio by K XP and John in the morning Cheryl Waters up in Seattle on K XP and and, ah, at the more theatre. My wife used to live in a little corner apartment there at the more theater. So amazing venue. And, uh and t witness you in person and toe here. You speak about your values so eloquently today. I think that's, um that's something that that's why the Internets going bonkers right now and just grateful for the time you're sharing with us today. I want toe have one of the line of question before we Well, you shout out. Hey, big shot out expiry John in the morning. And, uh, everybody over there Kevin and and yeah, they were. There were like one of those stations when they started playing bulletin target acoustically, that just wow, this is I never had a situation where a radio stations playing something, and then I go there and there's all these people. They're really kind of. I think it was right when they started getting really, really popular. And they were very supportive of that one record. And I'm very grateful for it. Yeah, there, dear, dear friend of mine and, um, much respected. They've, ah, brought us so money. So many great folks. And then And in that Andy fashion that you've talked about, Yeah, one more line a question before. Ah, if you'd if you'd, uh, place one more song or two after this, I want to talk about the genre because I think a lot of people, um, again that the audience today is mostly creators and entrepreneurs people who are not just inspired by your music and your art, but who are creators themselves. And a question that I hear regularly and then I like to get from people who are guests on the show is you know, how do you pick your lane? How do you know what you're good at? How do you, um how do you develop a personal style? So I'm wondering if you could talk a little bit about how you found your style. I know you've talked at length and other interviews about all year, your influences, but there's something that's so pure and you you are almost genre list you. You know, it's not hip hop. It's not reggae. It's not pop, not focus. It's like this amazing amalgamation of all these different heritages and lineages, but you're unmistakably you. And I think that's the sign of a true artist. So how did you arrive there? I think you got to really dig deep and, uh, you know, would shed. So every artist has to spend a lot of time by themselves and it. And it means, you know, kind of sacrificing friendships, sacrificing family, sacrificing uh, what you would normally want to do. Um, and you know, up there in a cabin somewhere or cheap hotels somewhere and you make a running on the beach doesn't really matter where you are but allowing yourself to be like, You know, you got to go out there and find it yourself. And really, it's within you, so there's nothing that you know. You got to be true and authentic toe what you do and who you are, and, um, obviously you can use your influences. But how? How is that voice really going to speak to other people? And essentially, it's after trying for a long time you'll know when that voice is speaking. You know, a man this isn't right and put it, You know, I remember the first time, you know, after years and I got goose bumps writing a song. And I was a man that's signing that something there, you know, and and, uh and I think when you you kind of you kind of have to be authentic. I mean, we live in a society that wants to follow trends, so it's very difficult. It's very difficult to kind of do that, you know, pull that pull that local motion, if you will. But you have to, you know, people can gain commercial success. I mean, obviously there people around me, that big, multi platinum records and all this kind of stuff and people like, Oh, your stuff is better than theirs. And I was like, It's not about that Is about reaching a new audience and fulfilling on audience and touching somebody on a really small level and growing that. And I think a lot of times as artists were scared, we kind of we kind of lose our vision as artists and and in try, I monetized things and I think that and that, like I said earlier, it's not that the other side is an important because how much you love your art has to be. You have two equally represent that commercially and just have the hustle. I mean, Basquiat went in and chased, um, was named Andy Warhol, Andy Warhol down in a restaurant. You know, it's like having that kind of, you know, you go after it. You know, it's not like, you know, you don't want to be a pest anyone, But if you have the talent you have, you owe it to your thing to somewhat, you know, knock on a bunch of doors on. I think that, but the process of artistically kind of finding yourself has to do it would shedding being by yourself and sacrificing the things you know, because so many artists think Okay, I wanna have ah, you know, wife and kids and and I want to go out on the weekends, and I want to go to, um this event. I want to go to that like, there ain't none of that. You know, when I started out, there wasn't no girlfriend. There was, you know, there was. What's it called? Ah, food taught on the floor. And I had a great little efficiency apartment that are a lot of great songs. That and I spent a lot of time alone. You know, I would go to open mikes, you know, three times a week to kind of start to learn how to perform live. Because that wasn't my forte was more like a songwriter and producer and and, you know, it's like, you know, so you know, if your partner isn't supportive of it, You know, I had partner at the time, and then, you know, she was like, Well, if you make it, you're not gonna be around. And if you don't, you're gonna be measurable. So so is I kind of split up and everything, but it was like, Is not There's not a lot of time for, you know, Matt, you know, being around and doing stuff I spent you know? Luckily at the 9 30 club in Washington, D. C. The people were very cool with me and let me come in to see shows. So I saw a lot of shows and I spent a lot of time. I walked around. I didn't have any transportation, but, um, prior to that, I used to buy and sell tickets, so I was always I always had enough money to get by. Um, and and then I stopped even doing that because I didn't even want that there and would occasionally go on, do some stuff just to cover my rent. Uh, but for the most part, it's it's would shed, and people probably don't want to say that, but you'll find yourself and that alone time, and I mean, I think people like how the misconception of, oh, my life's gonna be like a banker they want their life to. They want to be artist, but they want to live a 9 to 5 kind of corporate life because they feel like it's an excuse to get away from actual real work. But if you do, this is probably a lot more time consuming than actually getting a job and a lot more emotionally scarring emotionally difficult when you kidding, You're knocking and getting failure after failure, but it's also a lot more fulfilling when you actually do, um, get a minor success and and and then you could eventually get to that point of OK, well, I got myself maybe a house or a great apartment, and I can go out to a nice restaurant, take my girl out, whatever that kind of thing, and or if if it's great, you can jump on a private jet in flight. Oh, uh, wherever you want. But you know, I have never got that type of success, but I mean, it's like there's there's a great level of of thing you could do. But it's, you know, any art you do, it's not gonna be You're not living, you know. You gotta find somebody who's gonna understand that. That's what you do. And that's where your heart is. And you know, everything else kind of has to take second fiddle. Obviously, when your Children come along, that opens. That's a whole different story. But, uh, you know, if when you're trying to get your thing off, I think you know, would shed, would shed would shed. So does that mean indirectly, um, here we are. We're recording this in April of 2020 and would shedding has basically been prescribed to most of the people on the planet. So is there a implicit message in Ah, in what you just shared about about this particular opportunity about right now, Would you Would you give advice? I think of we're sitting there worried about what's gonna happen next. Then we're losing focus. This happened for a reason. You know, whatever powers that be whether you know, if you believe in conspiracy theories or if you just feel like the universe wanted to kind of let everybody take a rest. I mean, I think it was needed. I mean, I was looking around. I go to different cities and I've been saying for the last couple of years this can't sustain itself. You know? You see all the cranes, all the building, all the you know, you talk to the uber driver and ask if he's doing very any better because there's all this new stuff going on. Everyone says, Oh, you know, you should have seen natural seven years ago. You should have seen the We go five years ago. You should have seen, you know, very is 10 years ago, 15 years ago. You should. You know, everyone has the same story. So every city where it is all the rule, you know people in the rural areas have moved to the cities. So there's all this growing and all this kind of stuff, and it's just not sustainable. Like who's gonna pay for all this? Who's gonna pay for these $2 million condos that are being built up, you know, 25 feet high. And and so I'm just thinking like how and everybody's in a rush to get more and more more and and, you know, getting into businesses that don't necessarily provide quality and craftsmanship. And, you know, that's where we're all. Luckily, you have something that we as artists we can deliver. We can deliver real true craftsmanship and real true quality if we put our minds to it. But that said, Yeah, I mean, I think this time right now we might not experience this ever again. We might. It might happen, you know more than we expect, but part of that time, and this was meant to kind of slow people down or change their perspective. And no people been running around too much with their heads cut off, you know, deluding myself. So universe has a way of providing what we need. Even when we don't think we need it. Yeah, um I'm just Ah, Carla, Lisa and Sarah and Dina and ah, Gabriel and David. And Jason. And Shannon would love to hear another tracker too, if you can ah, share us share with the, uh, maybe one or two more before we let you wrap up. All right. Seen It's on them song. It's called Sideways for these no words to describe in France over Dimas A hours a Teoh thes they even knocking is decidedly even knocking me out. L u thes thank you. Moment. Take them thes way. No way. He's nowhere. Soothe in French was a todo How did you come around? Thank you. Time will take them away these feelings way thes they loathe they you way they even knocking me out. You way. Thank in in a moment in time Way These. Ah, that was amazing. We got ah, a lot of a lot of, um Emily imply and gave me a lot of a lot of tears being shed on the internet that people saying that will never, ever, ever, ever this is forever's. You're tired of you playing that song? Uh, yeah. Thank you. So Yeah. So grateful. Um, for those of you just joining chase with, uh, here with Mr Citizen Cope, um, new I g new single drop today on I g scared of heights, which he played earlier. And you'll have the chance to replay this wherever you're seeing it. Either here, creativelive dot com slash tv or Facebook or YouTube. Um, watch it again, if you can. First track you played, um, last question before I let you go, I was hoping that you could give up a prediction of, um, where your music is going to take you in the next chapter of your life. Do you have, Ah, place that you want to go? Do you have? Ah, um, and you've articulated really clearly that the destination, the journey is the destination. I'm just wondering what, um, there's some something on the horizon for you that your thinking about right now. Are you just content? Um, I think that one of the amazing things about being about four man and make records is that you're always learning something new. And so and and the adventure of that is very fulfilling. Um, one thing I've recently come to terms with is that? Ah, any of this stuff with all the extra things that it can bring you in and amazing opportunities to meet really cool people and travel cool places and, you know, recording studios and all that stuff that you never thought you could be able to do. So grateful for that, Um, and all these things that I thought, whether it would be like the women or, you know, not whatever you know, the most musicians, you know, Like, I want to get a pretty girlfriend. So I'm gonna write a good song. Uh, but all those kind of things were kind of thrown out, and I realize that, um, it's really about personal growth and all that kind of stuff is secondary. Because at the end of the day, it's, you know, I feel like I've used the meat I've come to terms with. The music might be just a vehicle for personal growth, and, um, there's a lot of things once you kind of feel like you realize that that okay, this could expand it. Something different. You know, maybe not just touring or, you know, every window's gonna close. I think the recording thing is going to close pretty soon as faras like people being able to make records. So it's like in the live thing is close. So you know one thing about being an artist's it always changes and you just got to innovate. And so, you know, tryingto developed is Kolyma Cope Show, which, you know, I go to the cities and that I travel and play in and highlight mom and pop places businesses that I go to went to a great boutique hotel in Chattanooga. This distillery and bootleg county in Virginia. A great air B B B air BB there, um, not era be bed and breakfasts are, you know, just hamburger spot. Uh, whatever is really amazing and kind of local and still has that fabric of independent spirit and eso highlighting that kind of stuff. And I'm kinda gonna build on that just because it was a lot of fun and kind of show what I did outside of playing the shows. Yeah, it's been as, ah, as a consumer of that. It's been really fun to watch you pick that up and, uh, share it and highlight thes individual businesses and burgers and ah, and also on your your instant lately. Just wanted to say thank you so much for sharing. You've been given a ton of time lately to, ah, concerts like this. I think it is innovation. As you said, Ah, when artists when you were dealt a hand you know you don't know what's coming around the corner, but it's really, um you seem to epitomise like responding to that in the moment it's been, Ah, it's been inspirational is held to watch you and to contribute so much of your time to plan shows like this and others online. So I wanted to say thank you. Oh, thank you, Yeah. I mean, it's not something I normally would have ever thought I would be doing, but it just kind of came to the point of, you know, it's kind of started when I got interested in this cooling co show, and it's like, Oh, this is really cool. And that expanded its some interviews, and I did a bunch of free concerts and then did some doing some paid ones I'm having, actually, when you announced next week I'm doing it's the first place I'm gonna announce it. Doing three shows Friday Saturday and Sunday, and one's gonna be just a regular show. One's gonna be kind of a storytellers on Saturday is gonna be storytellers, and I'm gonna to the Clarence Greenwood recordings from start to finish and tell some stories about and take some questions. And, um, shows were always really long. But, you know, you could re watch him and we watch him again. And the 3rd 1 is going to be kind of deep cuts stuff that I don't normally play. It shows or they aren't necessarily in the popular kind of what people would have found that, like, people love all that, all people that are invested in my music kind of like all the stuff. So always hear songs like You shouted out and I end up playing him and playing more, and it never convene enough. In the end of the 2.5 hour shows, somebody says, Well, why didn't you play the newspaper? Why don't you know? It's like, Oh God, hey, you know you can't play all of it, but I kind of wanted to do one of those deep cuts ones, and it's gonna be the first time the Clarence cream recordings is performed acoustically. So it's gonna be a special kind of, you know, these three shows be amazing, and I think I'm gonna announce the shows tomorrow. So look on the I g or the website of the Facebook with information on how toe get tickets to that. And we're also working with some charities involved in it, so it's all good. Amazing what? We'll make sure to amplify that when you make the announcement of where we can see it. Thank you for sharing. Something hasn't been shared anywhere else. With us here today means the world tests. And Katherine and Jill, um, Iraq and Shannon and Gabriel and Mark and myself in the entire creativelive community, the creator community around the world. So grateful for you sharing your insight and wisdom and ah, and of course, your art with us today. Very, very grateful to have you on the show. Um, thanks. I appreciate it, man. I appreciate what you're doing. And I appreciate you given, you know, artists of voice and for your listeners to be able to kind of get some real inside on stuff because usually interview is not really all inclusive as far as I can interviews just the bullet points. And, you know, with this form, you can actually get deep into what artists and the creative process is. And I think every artist out there wants to kind of get that Get that knowledge ing in our kind of reaffirms what we do watching something like this. Appreciate it. We'll, uh, next time you're in Seattle that you and I and Kevin and John and Shell get to gather down a K XP, cause I'm sure you'll be strong through their next time You can come in. Yeah, yeah. Look forward to really, really appreciate it. If you want to serenade us off into the sunset on we can close out a to the end of the song or if you're Ah, you're all fed up. We can We can let you go. You're calm and I'll give you another word if you don't want to. You man. I just I I'm just looking at 1000 comments coming in here. They want it bag in for one more. Um, they want to hear Oh, this would be going Okay. There's about a five second delay between when I say it And when it hits the internet. So you just heard, Ah, citizen cope. Ask you what you want to hear and Oh, God, here comes a comment. Um, we're gonna count it down 10 seconds. And I'm just gonna I'm going to ah, let you know what comes in here, cause now okay, Shannon and Villa and Barbara And, well, we got about 30 requests for Let the drummer kick. We got bullet coming in. Your bullet on the target bulletin. A target bullet bullet, One more newspaper. Uh, all the I mean, now it's snowed under because drummers, not I didn't write down on acoustic guitar. Kind of wrote that on my keyboard and drum machine, but I play bulletin its target. All right, Thank you so much. We'll just sign off at the end of this and wait their effigies of three times church. The state with the youth and harm. A hostile Teoh teacher said no Teoh people that way. No way. No, it is a bentzi. Enough is you got a dark on TV and boy, you just don't care. You got its work with. She got a dad never gave up Jake appeal with probably got, but she got engaged, achieved with 19 to Stool, who was acting insane, and a 45 minute always thing way. Teoh e check. Cover what you put to sound. Retreat up, Talk it Paul Puleo. Way before way, way between a full time, get trained up on it on a target between appointed and a bullet and appointed a on a target.