Why Conversation Matters with Rich Roll
Hey, what's up, Chase? You know that. But guess who's joining me in about 19 seconds. It's Mr Rich role. You don't know Rich role. He's one of the 25 fittest men in the world. He's the guru of reinvention. That's according to Outside magazine. And he is a renowned ultra endurance athlete. Wellness advocate, bestselling author, husband of four. He's also just insanely cool, sweet guy. Other people on the Internet have called US brothers from other mothers, and we also recognize that and one another. Every time I sat down with him, we have a Knauss, Um, conversation. And today's conversation is not only is it not an exception, I think it is one of our best yet. Um, Rich has got so much going on right now. Um, we've been on the show before. We've covered his past from addiction, redemption, Optimum Health, his best selling memoir called Finding Ultra, which is an incredible read if you haven't, um, he's also got a cool cookbook that I was on my counter right now upstairs. Um, and what we ...
get to cover today is a handful of things, including his book. Um, stay right there, voicing change And it is an amazing, um, I guess a book version of the podcast that he has put together more than 500 shows on this is excerpts, and there is a little snippet of yours Truly. I can't wait for you to dig into this show. So I'm going out of the way and enjoy, or rather ask you to enjoy my conversation with the one and only Mr Rich role. No. Tap your desk, raise the roof, bang a pot outside and welcome Mr Rich role to this show. Rich. Thank you so much for being here, Bud. So happy to be here, man. Thank you so much for having me. It's ah, It's a delight to see your bright and shiny face. I just wish we could be in the same room, but, alas, that will have to wait. Alas, we are miles apart right now. I think you're in Los Angeles if I'm not mistaken. And I'm up here in a crisp degrees Seattle this morning. Thanks for being the show, man. It's been a long time. You look great, Cove. It is treating you well, and it looks and Congrats on the new book. Thanks, man. Appreciate it. Got my my co vid beard rocking. I got my Koven hair. I don't quite have the covert beard, but this is like my hair's been since I was, like, 20. I've got the white coming in rapidly here, showing my age, but, you know, we're all doing what we can. And if it makes you feel any better, it was freezing here last night. We were down in tow, the high thirties as well. So how I feel you, Los Angeles? Um, man, there is a lot of ground I want to cover. And every time we have the good fortune of speaking together, I get so much feedback about the inspiration that your story is, uh we talked, uh, two shows that you've been on the show. I think is the third time, or maybe the second time in my show. And I've been on your show in the interim there. But we've had three substantial conversations, and the first one basically broke my inbox because your willingness to share your own personal journey, um, if we can start there just to recap in case people are new to that. I know. We're also broadcasting if I can for a second. We're doing this show live across YouTube, Instagram live Facebook live. Uh, I don't know all of the lives and specifically a creative live dot com slash tv. And if you are watching right now and you have questions for Rich, I'm happy to share them with him. I see those questions, whatever platform you put him in. And I will try and surface the most popular ones or the ones that strike a chord with me or I think will strike a chord with you, rich. So, uh, let him rip you all out there on the Internet. And again, I think I get the questions that creativelive dot com slash tv. I get those first, but I will see your questions on whatever platform. So that being said, take me back to rich role trying to do what everybody else wanted him to do as a lawyer and entertainment lawyer in in Los Angeles sometime ago. Start me there. And then how in the hell did you end up here? Yeah, I don't know. I asked myself that question every day. It's ah, it's been a journey. But yeah, I mean, I would say mid thirties, I found myself as a practicing corporate attorney on Guy was always somebody who was always good at following directions, but I think probably fair to say, a little bit disconnected from my higher self. I was somebody who put education first. I was an athlete in college, but, you know, grades and studying were always super important to me. And from a very early age, Um, I worked overtime to kind of meet parental and social expectations and, you know, do kind of what we're told to do is young people, like study hard, get into the good colleges, you know, get into the grad school, climb the corporate ladder, and I was successful in doing all of those things. But as I neared my forties, I started to have a bit of an existential crisis about these choices that I made because I was so unfulfilled professionally, Um, part of my story is also one of of alcohol addiction. I ended up getting sober at 31 and that was my first introduction to kind of some spiritual principles to help guide my life. But it's been a long journey and trying to implement many of those you know into how I think about and, you know, practice the art of living. But during this period of time, I very much put a lot of my alcoholic energy into into my career. I was very much a workaholic, and I was unaware until many years later just how much I was medicating myself through food. And so by the time I was 39 I was £50 overweight, kind of this classic couch potato, you know, on a crash course with chronic lifestyle illness, lazy. Even though I've been an athlete in college, it really wasn't looking after myself physically and had a kind of health scare that collided with this existential crisis. Right before I turned where I realized, you know, the way I was living was no longer tenable. And I really needed to, um, return to first principles and do some deep diving into myself to figure out you know what possibly could make me happy? And in my particular case, that journey began with reconfiguring my relationship to my body and to food and has led me down. You know what I would characterize ism or spiritually path of interconnectedness. Um, that over many years has culminated in the opportunity toe, you know, sit here and talk to you. Um, it happened very slowly. It was like a glacier, you know, melting very gradually. Um, it wasn't the result of me, you know, breaking out a white board and creating a vision for myself as much as it was about trying to reconnect with my intuition and learning how to trust that intuition and having the courage and the faith. Thio, you know, break ranks with what I was comfortable with and start thio, you know, embrace a more creative way, uh, of living and pursuing a career. Well, to say that the internet is inspired by you that by myself I'm inspired by you would be an understatement just to let you know people tuning in from India from Houston, from New York, from Argentina, from is that Japan from from Europe, we gotta Paris in the House of London. Romania. Um, so people here for you and the story that you just shared especially about overcoming addiction, is also clearly resonating. Uh, John Ulcer says riches journey with alcohol helped inspire him to give it up at the age of 32. Um, it said that it said that, um, alcoholism is a symptom, not the disease itself and any addiction. And when you said you were medicating yourself, do you know why was this childhood trauma was it the fact that you weren't living your highest self? In what way were you disconnected? As you said from your your true self. And you know, how did you if again, indeed, you believe that was the the motivation for for your addiction on And how did you come to understand what that gap was? The gap that was making you so hurt that turned you Thio thio alcohol? Yeah, the question Why is ah, kind of ah, mystery box. One of the things that I've kind of learned over the years is to not indulge myself too deeply in pursuing the why I try to focus on the solution for today because I think the why, although informative, um, doesn't really help me figure out how to move forward on a moment to moment basis. But to answer the question, I think you know, childhood trauma is certainly an aspect of it. You know, if you ask people in in the 12 step community, you know, they'll just say, Well, you're an alcoholic cause you're an alcoholic. Maybe it's genetic. Maybe it's childhood trauma. Maybe it's some combination of both. I'm sure that's the case with me. Um, and I've done a lot of interpersonal work to kind of untangle those knots and heal some of that childhood trauma. But I do, you know, recall very vividly that as a young person, I was just one of those kids who felt like everybody else had the rulebook for life, and I didn't. And I walked around with this kind of low grade discomfort with who I waas was very insecure. I difficulty connecting with other, you know, human beings. I was very much and still to this day, you know, very much an introvert. Andi. I think that that kind of creates this sense of separateness from everybody else. And when you're young, you're not consciously aware of what's actually going on. You just know that you feel a little bit different, and then when that moment arises and you come in contact with that substance that, um, that eases that sense of discomfort. You just start to develop a relationship with that because you're like, Wow, this is actually makes me feel good. So you're correct in that it's not the substance. That's the problem. The underlying condition is the problem, and the path in recovery is healing yourself. Like obviously, abstinence is a big part of it. You can no longer, you know, use those substances anymore. But without the spiritually tools and these emotional tools and therapy and all the like, you're still left with that condition, which, if left untreated, you may not use drugs or drink anymore. But you're probably gonna be an asshole, and you're gonna be unhappy, right? So this is something that even though it's been a very long time since my last drink, I still live with alcoholism. And if I'm not treating that underlying condition, my disease will manifest itself in a wide variety of character defects that make everyone else around me unhappy myself included. I think that there is not necessarily a Y and investigating that, you know, has a range of possible outcomes and virtues and also problems. Uh, and so for the folks out there again um, people tuning in from all over the world, already just heartfelt and connected based on your vulnerability. I feel like that the my understanding of this gear shift that you may just based on our previous conversations and time hanging out by your pool in Los Angeles with you, uh, is a very inspiring journey. And part of what I appreciated the most is this willingness to just put 1 ft in front of the other. And as you said, you know there is no individual lightbulb moment or, um, and that it was just a Siris of small decisions on overtime. Can you help us understand a little bit about what some of those steps were? I think we talk about self care, and it's easy to couch it in. Um, you know in that. But give us some tactics there because there are so many people who look at you know your podcast today, one of the top 100 podcasts in the world. Best selling book. One of the ones we're about to get it into and where they are right now. They look, they're looking at where you are, and you know they don't necessarily see a path. So help us understand. Help us understand the path that you chose in order, Thio create the life and living that you're living today. Yeah, sure. So you know, the path is always crystal clear in retrospect, you know, looking backwards, you can have perfect 2020 clarity about how you got to where you are now. But casting that glance forward is always is always tricky on. Like I said initially, you know, I didn't I wasn't quite clear on what the path was that I was blazing. Other than that, I was trying to, you know, trust my instincts and developed and developing home those. I would say that if you Google made on the Internet, there's a narrative that emerges that makes it look like everything that I've accomplished happened in a very compressed period of time. And that's an illusion like, that is not the case like I've been. I'm 54 now. You know, I got sober 31. I started to really, you know, deal with this existential crisis in my early forties. You know, this is this is we're talking about decades of, you know, very slow, gradual progressive growth along the way. There certainly have been inflection points. There was the day that I decided I can't drink anymore and I'm going to go to a treatment center and lived there for 100 days. And that was a decision that had a tremendous profound impact on, you know, my entire life and continues to this day. And there was also the moment 10 years later when I was walking up a flight of stairs and was winded and out of breath and had tightness in my chest and realized I can't live my life the way that I'm living it anymore. That was a second inflection point that set in motion a series of very small decisions that have led me to today. But the important thing to remember is that this is slow. It's almost imperceptible in the day to day, and I was able to go from those, you know, dark places, um, by dent, of inflection points that were motivated by pain and then in you know, subsequent to that figuring out how to show up every single day and just make you know tiny little decisions a little bit better than I did the day before, like and focusing. Really? On the moment that I'm in or the hour that on what is the next meal that I'm gonna have? What's that gonna look like? You know, who's the next person that I'm going to call? Um, I'm going to sit on the couch tonight and watch TV, or I'm going to go toe in a meeting. Or, you know, what is what is, you know, a creative outlet for this sense of dissatisfaction that I have. Should I write a block post? Should I journal? And it was really a function of just showing up for tiny little things like that every single day and not even really understanding that I was progressing in the least and Onley over time that changed. Being reflected back to me by other people who would say, You look better or wow, you seem to be a little bit lighter in your shoes today in the way that you're interacting with me things that I wasn't even consciously aware of. And that gave me the encouragement to just more deeply immersed myself in a variety of disciplines. Whether it was, you know, fitness, diet, nutrition therapy, 12 step you know, being of service to helping other alcoholics achieve sobriety. And then, over time, learning that, um, I picked up a few things along the way, and perhaps I could share those and be of service to other people who aren't quite as far along on this journey as I am. How far? How far into your journey did the did it go from a new internal exclusively an internal dialogue until you put it, but that as an external part of who you were the like. I'm I'm far enough along now, and I can start to help others. It wasn't until probably 2008. Uh, 2000. Yeah. I think around 2008, when I was really training for some of these ultra endurance races that I was competing in, Ah, buddy of mine bought rich role dot com that you are like a tech buddy of mine bought the u R l and gave it to me for my birthday. It never occurred to me that I would want to meet that, and he helped me create a blawg. And so I started sharing what my training was looking like. And you know what the foods that I was eating that was fueling my training. And this was something that, you know, not even my mother was reading like nobody nobody was reading, but slowly I started to pick up a small audience. I mean, I certainly wasn't part of that early wave of Internet creators that people like yourself were, you know, really very much a part of people like yourself and Tim Ferriss like I wasn't in that category of individuals whatsoever. But I was aware of you guys, and that was inspiration to me to say, Hey, maybe I'll share a few things I didn't really set out to become an Internet personality. It was just the era of where everyone was kind of blogging a little bit as a diary, you know, like this personal journey. But some people started reading it, and what happened was, um, Sanjay Gupta. CNN somehow stumbled across my blogging was reading it because he was inching up on 40 at the time and thinking about you know, how he wanted to stay in contact with his fitness and he wanted to interview me and he came out to my house. This was like a mind blowing thing for me at the time like we were going through financial difficulties, and I was still very confused about what I was doing. And it was just, you know, it was bizarre that somebody like him would show any interest whatsoever and what I was doing, because it really waas just for me. It was a very internal kind of thing, not that externally focused. But in the wake of that, they also asked me to write a block post a nar tickle about my story for CNN dot com, which I did not thinking very much about it and that, um, that that piece got so much traffic that they moved it from the health section to the home page of CNN. And it became like one of the top most emailed stories for that week or a couple of days there. And my inbox just exploded with people emailing me from all over the world, sharing their version of my story, and these messages were so intimate and vulnerable, I felt like people were telling me things that they'd never told anyone because I had lead with vulnerability and, you know, had the kind of you know, courage to share things about myself in my story that I wasn't necessarily proud off. And that was another kind of inflection point that really made me think a little bit more broadly about what I was doing. Like the fact that so many people took time out of their day. Thio email me, um, made me realize that perhaps there was something about what I was doing that meant mawr than just you know, whether I was going to finish this race, you know, and that there was perhaps a deeper message that that would allow me toe, you know, connect with people on a more profound and meaningful manner. Well, we are all thankful of your for your shift to the external external locus because it's benefited so many people. Uh, David Hannah talks about on your YouTube channel right now where we're live streaming. This says says once you align with your core values, it doesn't matter what other people think. And I'm interested in what role your core values played in this sort of internal external dialogue. Yeah, I mean, the first thing was that I had toe determine what those core values were like I had been living my life essentially for others for a very long time. I was trying to meet social expectations and parental expectations, as I mentioned earlier on, always feeling like I was coming up short, and I had this undeniable sense that I was trying to jam a square peg into a round hole. But as a swimmer, as an athlete is a young person like I knew how to suffer and I just thought, Well, I'm just going to suffer through this because this is what you do is as an adult until I reached my breaking point with all of that and made this decision that, um, I was going to start paying attention to what made me happy. And I can't overstate what a radical notion that was for me at the time, as this, like people pleaser who was really just seeking approval and external validation from people that I really shouldn't have been. You know, I should have been paying more attention to what makes me tick and makes me happy. And, you know, initially I just discovered that that when I went out and went trail running or went back to the pool or rode my bicycle that that it allowed me to connect with a certain kind of childlike joy that I hadn't experienced in a long time. I very clearly made a decision that I was going to continue to do that, even though, you know, I was battling this demon that was saying, That's for kids That's not for adults like you're supposed to be, you know, going out and making bread and, you know, making your way in the world. And this didn't seem to fit into that equation. But I just thought, I don't care like I'm I'm gonna make time for the things that make me happy And I don't I don't you know, Not that it needs to lead anywhere else other than that, but by continuing to just kind of pull on that thread and trying to explore the more a little bit more deeply, I started to develop a sense of what my core values were. And those core values, you know over time have become taking care of myself, being a cipher for others about how to do this and being a message of hope for people that suffer from addiction and, you know, various disorders that there is, um that there, you know there is a path forward and that a better life awaits you if you're willing to do the work and slowly over time trying to craft ah, life and a professional vocation around those values and and staying committed to that, um is really you know what's allowed me toe, you know, have some level of longevity and the thing that both you and I dio so inspiring. Um, man, when I think about your what your message about, um, your core values you just whether you were conscious of this or not, you talked about mindset over and over and over there. And, you know, I I know that you're, ah deep believer in this, but I'm wondering if you can share a little bit of detail. I'm also referencing question from YouTube from Matt and Joe. No. How do we keep a growth mindset and continue progress? Because success almost almost always, he says, results in more consumption. So you know what role has mindset played in that for you? And what are some things that you do to manage it? Mm. That's a great question. How do I answer this? I mean, I think when growth is part of that core value set, um, then everything else just becomes tactics and strategies. You know, I know that I am committed to growth, and I've experienced a tremendous amount of growth in my life. But I also know that there's so much more growth to be had, right? And I think, understanding that I still have huge blind spots and that I'm still my my worst enemy more more days than not keeps me connected with the fact that there's more. There's more to Dio, but I think on a day to day basis, it's humility is super important, you know, despite having success, understanding that I'm, you know, a servant among men and that my message is only as powerful as as, you know, the kind of vibration that I carry. And if I'm not living that myself, you can't be Ah, beacon for that, You know, in in, uh, in a they call it not being able to transmit something that you haven't got right. Which is why sponsorship is such a important part of of of the recovery process. Because the sponsor has to be practicing the principles in order to be teaching them or helping somebody else through that process. So humility is key. And then I think, um, maintaining, you know, having having a, uh, system of accountability is also super important. Like I have friends, that I'm accountable Thio. And they're not afraid to tell me when I'm screwing up or taking the wrong tack. So I've learned over time that despite becoming um, or integrated person, that my instincts aren't always leading me in the right direction like anybody else I'm you know, I could be the victim of ego and all these kind of lower character defects that can lead me astray. And so I make a habit of running my decisions by kind of a, you know, council of advisers who helped me make right decisions. So I have the humility to not think that I always know what's best for myself and to make sure that I'm getting input from people that I trust that's super important. So community essentially like making sure that you're keeping good company people that are encouraging and positive but also honest with you. I think it's super important and then I think, um, second to that, ensuring that you're creating healthy boundaries around the things that don't serve you and also carving out the time for that self care. You know, we're also busy, and we have our careers and families and relationships, etcetera. And it's very easy to live your life on autopilot. It's particularly easy to do that when things were going well, because there isn't an incentive to do kind of an inventory of you know, how you're living your life moment to moment or day to day eso. I try to make sure that every single day before I start my day, I ground myself with meditation, with journaling, with gratitude list and staying in contact, you know, with my friends and that board of advisers to make sure that, you know, we're all communicating with each other and were a mutual support system for each other. I love it. Uh, Theresa from YouTube's grateful that you're talking about this and she, like so many of us, struggle from self sabotage. You just cited a panel of advisers, a peer group, and I'm wondering, and I think a lot of people who are watching or listening might be wondering, How does one go about finding that group? Because there's so much loneliness and isolation, not just because we're hearing a pandemic, but in modern culture. And there are people right now listening and watching, saying awesome. Well, if I'm the average of the five people I spend the most time with, how doe I find myself or put myself around people who, um, have growth mindset who are living their highest values, or people that I can ask to hold me to a different standard that I might hold myself to or then my current peer group. So how did you find that group? And what is some advice that you would give others who are struggling there? Yeah, that's a great question. You know, I think that, um, we live in this culture. What's what's kind of great about this kind of Internet ecosystem that we're in is that there are a lot of inspiring people who are basically dropping wisdom on the daily and and, uh, and and and that information is freely available. And some of these people become rock stars like everybody would love Seth Godin to be there, you know, their mentor, you know, like Will you mentor meat? There's certain personalities out in the world, and and we we rightly put a spotlight on them, and we all aspire to have somebody of that caliber in our life. But that's not ah possibility for most people. And I think it's important, understand? You know, one of my favorite catchphrases is, you know, the profits walk among us. You know, there are wise people walking planet Earth in our particular neighborhoods and environments if you just give people a chance. And you know, some of the most, um wise and intelligent advisors that I have in my life or not anybody fancy that anybody would have heard of their, you know, their their like, broken down, you know, drunks and heroin addicts who piece their life together and are just, you know, living their life anonymously, you know, as a servant. And, you know, these are the people that are like the Buddhas in my life. So I think it's important that my point being that, you know, stop worrying about the fancy people and really start paying attention to the people that are in your environment. And I think when you do that and you engage those people, um, in an honest and open way, leading with curiosity and vulnerability, I think you might be surprised at who you will discover. Um, short of that, we do have this thing called the Internet and and like I said, you know, a lot of wisdom is freely available, and that doesn't mean that, you know, you might might not be able to get these people on the phone to become your mentors. But there's a lot of guidance out there. And I think if you, you know, seek it out. Um, that can fill the gap If you're having trouble finding those people you know in your day to day life and particularly, you know, given that you know, we're in this age of coronavirus where we can't socialize, you know, on the level that we would like. But I would encourage everybody to, you know, go through the roller Dex or think about their childhood friends and to use this moment the zoom culture that we're in right now to reconnect with those people. And I think if you're in that curious exploratory mindset, you might surprise yourself with the people that you can find and enlist in this process And enclosing to that question, I think if you approach those people from a perspective of mutual mutuality, like, how can I help you and create, like, a dynamic where you're helping each other and you could grow together? Um, you know that at a very minimum is an extremely powerful lever for growth. Well, Ross, um photography from Anchorage, Alaska. Adana. Emmett, Brittany Catherine, Just Doreen from L. A Britney from Canada. Matt Shepard. Nice to see you in the comments here, Matt Shepherd. People from all over the world are starting Thio our timing in here in the comments, but are in awe with the simplicity and directness that you are able to articulate this. Now that is a skill. But have you done extra work on this? Is this about Is this about mental clarity? Is this about clarity of vision for your life? Where does this laser that you have for this stuff come from? I mean, I don't know. I mean, first of all, thank you. Like I'm not aware that I'm doing that. I'm always like I'm always like I'm always checking myself like a my full of shit. Is that just like total bullshit? Uh um you know, Listen, I think I think going to law school was was was very helpful in teaching me how to think and analyze problems and articulate a point of view clearly and making make an argument on, then support it like it's a very specific skill set that teaches you a mentality around advocacy and rhetoric. So I think that was helpful. Andi, I think you would agree, Chase. I don't know how many episodes of your show you've done, but I've done over 550. So that's like, I don't know how many thousands of hours of talking to people, But you know that just that just, you know, goes into your unconscious mind and you know, when you're forced Toby present with another individual and talk to them for long periods of time. Hopefully, over time you get better at doing that and you become more skilled at articulating your your ideas and your views. It's I just find it so useful to listen to you. And I do believe in your point that the this conversation seeking out smart, talented people. You know it. My show started out 11 years ago as a curiosity project and almost selfishly like how doe I learn from these folks who inspire me. And I like that you phrase, it is sort of this, um it is a skill that you've worked on over time, and that's part of the reason I want to circle back to your point about community. Like if you're just sitting alone on the couch and you're thinking instead of acting and you you don't have other folks, that you can bounce things off of that as you said, are your accountability partners or, you know, you're an advisory council, if you will. It's just it's just a lot harder. And this belief that thes things happen as individual pursuits, I think is one of the most toxic things in our culture is why I wrote so much about it in my book Creative calling. A quarter of the book was dedicated to community, and, you know, to that point, David asks, um, I don't hear you talk much about God. I hear you talk about faith, which is obviously very personal. So under the umbrella of faith, who are some of these influential people in your life. E think you could say this is an extension of the question that I just asked. Like you said, there are people in the 12 step program that inspire you and people in your life Are these close friends? Are the people that are on the Internet that you reached out to? Is it someone in your immediate circle of family members again? I just sense this just based on the questions coming in, people are are hungering now. Great. Where do I look? Mhm. Yeah. Interesting. I think, uh, that it's a tricky question. Ah, I would say that I believe in God, but I don't believe in, you know, a dogmatic application of religion, particularly. So my faith doesn't take, um, some kind of organizational form. And my spiritually inspiration comes from a wide swath of, you know, wise what I would consider to be enlightened or semi enlightened individuals. And I really care less about the tradition that they, you know, in which they developed their perspective. Um, and I care more about what that wisdom is and how it applies to my life. So I've sought this out in a variety of ways. I seek it out, Um, in in, uh, in Alcoholics Anonymous. You know, my my first introduction. Like, I'm somebody who grew up in Sunday school, and I went to an Episcopal, you know, elementary school, and I just never was able to connect with religion like I had no emotional attachment to it whatsoever. I just I could not wrap my head around how this could be helpful in my life On when I was in this treatment center. Ah, one of the counselors said to me early on, hey asked me a question. He said, Are you Ah, human being having a spiritual experience or spiritually being having a human experience? And I was like, I don't fucking understand the question. Like it, Like bent my brain like trying to figure out what he was getting at. And it's only, you know, over a long period of time that I've come to realize that you know, I'm a spiritually being having a human experience. And what does that mean? Specifically? I'm still trying to answer that question, but I do believe that we are more than the sum of our parts and that there are, uh, is such a vastness to the universe. It's hard for me to believe that it's that it's random. And I think there are so many things that escape are a limited, are limited senses and perceptions to understand. And I take I take comfort in not knowing that and the guidance that I get comes from, you know, the monks who've been in caves and the, you know, the kundalini yoga masters and the, you know, uh, you know, the reformed pastors, like all walks of life. And I've tried to use the podcast as a platform for some of these people to come and share their stories. I mean, I've had everybody from Rob Bell who was a former mega mega pastor, you know, who's kind of, you know, reframed his relationship with with, you know, Christ and Christianity to you know, Rod, No swami who comes from you know, the Hari Krishna movement on and kind of everything in between. And I think when you approach these people from a perspective again, you know of humility and curiosity. It opens up your portal, so learn you know something about something about yourself and and how to live. Well, speaking of your podcast, which is one of the top in the world, more than 100 million downloads e want to share with everyone? Your new book voicing change which, to your point of the profits walk among among us. I will just share with you. I have the good fortune of having an autographed copy. Yeah, right there. The profits walk among us, which is what you show. Everybody show everybody the profile of you in there. I was so proud. Thio include Chase in the book? Yeah, We have some beautiful photographs that we took a view from that day. Um, let's see. I give you a look at the table of contents here real quick. The photographs were beautiful. As a lifelong photographer myself. I wanna give you a shout out you and your crew for putting together. It's amazing, um, aggregate of photographs from so many different, um, moments in your in this show lifestyle moments outside from outside of the show. Let's see, one clothing. Timmy Ferris, Another dear friend of ours. Oh, look, there we are right there. Uh, Page 154 for For anyone who cares. There he is. You mean kicking it your place in l. A. I was a really, really fun day. Certainly one of my favorite interviews I've ever given having given a lot been a lot of shows. Um, your your craft, your ability to get to the heart of stuff is like few that I've been in, um, close proximity to It was a very, very fun experience to be on this show. I still get people, um, like, you know, sending me whatever dems and instagram about how it has been helpful. So shadow to you for your craft to someone who's also been doing it for for a decade or more. Uh, but I wanna I want to make sure to underscore and connect the dots from where we just were to this particular book you talked about. You know, we had a lot of questions about, Okay, I'm stuck. And I understand that I'm one person. Um, I have a set of core values, but what I really need in order to maximize or even, um, just increase My potential is a community, and sometimes especially now amidst the coronavirus. But just in pop culture, generally it's hard to build relationships and maintain them and develop them. And I like that you referenced. You know, when the question about sort of faith and about who in your life inspires you? It was a huge swath, you know. It was people from 12 step meetings and, you know, religious leaders and, you know, scientists and astronauts and athletes, and it do keepers. It would literally was the entire gamut. And it's captured in here. And I think that is, You know, when people ask the question, How do I get in stuck If it's anything, This book is a book of life lessons about reaching out and building a relationship with people who inspire or connect with you in your case, your your face to face with them having long, heartfelt, earnest conversations. But would it be a stretch to say that your relationship with those people at first started out from a distance? A someone you were inspired by. So walk us through your you know, with most of these people, you had to pay attention to their work, read their books, listen to their podcast of their shows before you connected to them. What was What's a What's a typical arc look like? Because clearly you've You've mastered it here in the book. Yeah. Thank you. Um, you know, much like yourself. I started the podcast out of, you know, curiosity and this desire to grow. It was never intended to be this vocation. You know, I had kind of progressed as a human being to a certain point, and I have been able to accomplish certain things in terms of athletic achievements and the like. And, um, it became apparent to me that, like I said earlier, like growth, you know, growth is not static. Growth continues. And I wanted to continue to progress as an individual on this realize ation like, Wow, I changed my life so much. And I've come so far, and I've done these things, like what else? In my blind to like, Where are the other areas that I can accept? Florida continue to grow as human beings, and the podcast really is? Ah, very, you know, honest and heartfelt expression of of that journey and my litmus test for having somebody on this show is really just Oh, I'm curious about that person. And that person is doing something I wanna learn more about that could perhaps benefit me. But also I think, you know, they just they deserve, you know, attention and credit for what they're doing. Um, and you know, I've never set out with goals like he is the people I want to get on the show like it's all very like organic, like I'll just wake up one day or I'll read an article and I think that person's cool, like I'm going to reach out to that person and sometimes it takes a year before. I mean, it took us a long time to get it together to make it happen. So I'm always like baby sitting. You know, these relationships trying to get people on the show, and what's beautiful about it is that, you know, very often they become part of that Council of, you know, advisors in my life and my friends, you know, like you know, even though we haven't spent that much time together, I do feel very connected to you. And I know if I was, you know, fly up to Seattle that we could hang out all weekend and have an unbelievable time. Like, you know, I feel connected to you. And there's something about sitting across from a person, uh, in a structured environment and having a long form conversation and really, you know, with the intention of it being heartfelt and meaningful that creates this bond like I'll never forget the experience that we had. And I know when you walk away like you'll remember that as well. And we like, have that. And there's something really special about that, and so understanding that motivates me to be as prepared as I possibly can. You know I have them on because I do want to know more about them. So of course I'm going to read the book and, like, you know, watch all their videos and listen to the other podcast they've done because, you know, I want that energy in my own life from a selfish perspective, and it makes me a better host. But then when I show up for the interview, as you know, you kind of have to let all that go and just be present for whatever is happening and get out of the business of trying to control the conversation, because then you're robbing it of what's most beautiful about it, which is just the emotional connection that could develop when two people are just present with each other and are, like, you know, caught up in some agenda s. So I think that's what's really beautiful about it. And I think you would echo, um, you know, another sentiment that I have about about this journey, which is that it's taught me how important meaningful conversation is, like I truly believe in my heart of hearts. Now more than ever, that meaningful conversation is is the self toe what ails us? You know, we just weathered this very acrimonious election, regardless of who you voted for, whatever your political proclivity is, we're not. We're all keyed into the fact that we're quite divided as a country right now, and there's a breakdown in our ability to engage in healthy communication with each other. And the problem is dire. And the only solution that I can identify for moving forward is to double down on. You know, these kind of long form, meaningful conversations that prioritize nuance that aren't binary. They're not black or white. It's not about what tribe you're in, but it's really about trying to develop mutual understanding. And I just think it's super crucial and critical in this, you know, Clickbait soundbite culture where everyone assumes were attention deprived. The fact that podcasting, long form conversations are having this kind of moment where they've never been more popular, I think speaks to something that's hardwired into all of us. As human beings like this is, you know, the human. This is ancient man sitting at the camp fire, you know, connecting with his fellow human. And we've lost touch with that. And these digital platforms have allowed us to recapture, um, some aspect of that. And I think the appreciation for the medium, you know, is really an affirmation of just how important and critical this is in being, you know, fully actualized healthy human beings that care about, you know, a healthy society. So well said very, very well said. And I think that I would just echo the sentiment of conversation starts with a if it starts from humility and from a question, rather than from, um a point of view in an ego, you know, I think that is one of the biggest challenges that, um, I observe and other people trying to connect and converse. And it's one that I have experienced having done hundreds and hundreds of conversations like the one that we're recording. And, um, you know, we keep saying like, you know, my man, you know, we keep referring to the other person because we walked such a similar path. Um, I also found it fascinating like you just mentioned. The digital ecosystem is away toe share ideas and, you know, spread this knowledge and encourage conversation Demonstrate model if you will open honest, heartfelt conversation in the time that we need it. I found it just fascinating and brilliant that you packaged conversations into a book. You know, one of the things that I was reluctant to do for some time was actually sit down and spend a couple of years writing a book because it was a medium that was slow for me. I enjoy the benefits of writing, but writing is hard, and, you know, I took a couple of years to put what I felt were my sort of like collection of ideas into a book, and I just found it so fulfilling, mostly because there are people who were new to my work or new to, um, creativity or creative, curious or heard about it from a friend. It was like another package to get out the information that I had been sharing digitally for a long time. I'm curious now to get to the actual the punch line. The question there was that an intentional move to package digital conversation into an analog package that was gift double that was readable. That was bedside table. This is This is a combination of coffee table book because the photography is beautiful and inspiring this hell with with the words and the excerpts from your shows. What was the impetus behind this? Um, I think you nailed it. You know, e think that as a digital creator, you can get lulled into this idea that because you have fans that are paying attention to what you're doing, that they're watching every episode, you know of your show and reading every block post. And that's just not the way that human beings are. And, you know, over the course of the eight years that I've been doing this, I've put up episodes that were, you know, seven years ago that I could, you know, released today that are just as timely is just is important. But there's this idea that because it's in the past that it's not really relevant anymore. Um, even if you, you know, couch it as timeless. And I wanted Thio, I think there is something, you know? Yeah, writing is hard and it z painful. But when you get to the other side of it, it is it is very gratifying. And one aspect of that gratification is that there's something physical that exists in the world. You know, that is a manifestation crystallization of the message that you know, the frequency that you're trying to, you know, admit. And the book really was motivated by that sentiment, you know, understanding. Like not everybody listens to every podcast. There are a lot of people that don't listen to podcasts at all or they don't have time on. I wanted to to, you know, take a cross section of all these guests that I've had create, you know, a fair and accurate representation of vibe of what the show is with nuggets of wisdom from past guests like yourself. Essays contributed by certain people, of course, my thoughts and package it in a very aesthetically pleasing manner, like, you know, as a photographer and filmmaker. Chase, you know, like aesthetics are important that I care about aesthetics. And I wanted I wanted the book to represent that kind of that kind of ethos. Um, that I'm trying Thio, you know, create around this show that I do and the ideas that are important to me and do it in a way where people could either revisit their favorite guests in the past, rediscover new people or as an introduction for somebody who's never heard of anything that I do before to get a sense of what it's all about in a very you know, digestible way and in a format that somebody can put out on their coffee table and feel good about somebody a guest coming in and and flipping through it. This is like a Trojan horse. I had it set out, and my wife, Kate, is a huge fan. Loves your work. The cookbook that you and your wife did is one of the first one she's always reading before she's getting more and more plant based, and, um, when I had this sitting on the coffee table uh, this was, I think, last night because I just got it two days ago, and it I just I watched her pick it up, not ask me anything. Just start flipping, stopping reading, you know, And then 20 minutes later, she's still, like, glued to this thing. And then I said, Hey, I you know, I've got I got rich on this show tomorrow and she's like, Oh, my God, I feel like I know him And again, I don't think you've spent any time with Kate, but the ability in 20 minutes toe have, you know, got this Trojan horse that in a way, it turns not just your guests, but it's a reflection of you. And I thought that was a really like Cape Kate's comment about feeling like she knows who you are just by reading largely your guests commentary. But based on the questions and the packaging of this, I think it's It's such an amazing Trojan horse. Um, for the ideas that are important to you. I don't know if that was intentional, but it's like, What is it? The sugar with the medicine? Yeah, I appreciate that. That's great feedback. Yeah, I mean, you know, pull them in with the beautiful photography and then hit him over the hammer with the timeless wisdom. You just You coined that. That's a good one. And, uh, can we talk about your creative process for a minute? Mhm. So sure. Ah, I want to recap there we get, uh, former lawyer and I remember from our previous conversations, if I'm making this up, then you kicked me into the table here, but as, ah, lawyer or before your lawyer nous, I don't remember. I think you didn't really identify as creative. I think, as you said in your sort of intro Salvo, just, you know a lot about pleasing other people. And that was about achievement and ticking boxes and whatnot. So two part question first part. At what point in your journey did you understand that we're all creative? Specifically, you were very creative. And then to talk about what your creative process looks like today. Mhm, Um, I think that that on an unconscious level, I always knew that I was a creative person. And before all the kind of you know, messaging that ended up muting that voice. I found a lot of joy in creative expression. You know, I remember picking up a camera when I was, you know, a freshman in college, and I started taking photographs of the swim team at Stanford, and then at the end of the year, I do a slide show for them, and I found so much creative satisfaction in that, even though it was just a silly little project. But what happened to me? And I think this is common with a lot of people. It just gets pushed aside like that's an indulgence like That's not really what you're here to dio. This is not what you're meant to be fostering. You have to get serious and grow up. And so I suppressed all of those instincts that I think we all have, you know, especially when we're Children on day. For me, it's been a journey of trying to reconnect and recapture that on, but to honor it really like and not look at it like, ah, frivolous indulgence, but actually to take it seriously. And my creative process has evolved over time, really by, um, by that process of honoring it and, you know, creating boundaries around creative time for myself. And this began for me by doing the artist way program and going on the artist date and like, trying new things even though it was silly and then, um, feeling really, like, kind of secretly proud of myself for, you know, doing a little, you know, going out into the woods and like drawing a picture or something like that. Um, and it's evolved over time now into, you know, products like books that I get that I get to put out And, you know, like we talked about earlier Aesthetics, you know, are important to me. And I've kind of honed that sensibility over time. And this book in particular, I think, is Ah, pretty good, accurate reflection of of of you know, how I approach my work in the sense that there's a very modern veneer over this book in particular, like it has a modern sensibility in its typeface and in the types of photographs and the manner in which they're laid out. But that's very intentional. And the intentionality is about taking like these arcane ideas that are somewhat ephemeral and very often, you know, rooted in, you know, ancient philosophy and religion, and you know places that you know. You you would find these ideas in, like, dusty old books or in the, you know, the kind of Body Tree bookstore where there's a bunch of hippies. And I wanted thio, um, kind of reframe the conversation that we're having around these ideas and present it in a modern way that makes it kind of aspirational and digestible for a modern audience. And that was kind of my idea going into this book, and I should say, But this was very much a team effort, you know, like I worked with some really amazing and talented photographers and graphic designers who who are responsible truly for, you know, the look and the feel and the layout of what this book is. And it's a book that even though I really got to work writing it and finishing at at the Beginning of the Pandemic and now releasing it, it's self published volume. It's something that I've been working on from the beginning of the podcast, because I always put ah lot of time and attention into the introductory block post that I write for every guest and I constantly flogging myself because I know that's such a small percentage of the audience, even ever reads these things or cares about these things. And I was doing it really for myself. Like to continue to progress and evolve. Is a writer like, How can I say something interesting and unique about this individual and the conversation to come while also communicating their bio and the essential facts and the things that you kind of have to dio? But what's different about how I can introduce this person from how somebody else is doing it? And the book is really an assemblage of all of these block Post that I then, you know, re edited and rewrote so that they're appropriate for the book. But you know, that work, you know, began at the beginning of the podcast. So in certain respects, I've been writing this book ever since I started doing this show. Well, to your first point about the process of putting a modern, um, package around timeless ideas. I just give you five stars on that one. My man, you crushed it, and that's really what I meant when I said this sort of Trojan horse sitting on my coffee table just I watched. It's like Kate in and, you know, deliver and you shoot you and she are remind me of one another a lot in your approach to life. So on the first point about the package, you nailed it, and I've got living proof. I got it. I watched it happen last night. So, uh, fully executed. Well, on that one to the second point about your process. Um, this idea of doing a daily practice is something that you know I'm personally obsessed with. I think you know, habits and behaviors or how we actually make change in our lives. And you've done 500 of these interviews and you talked about writing every day. What is your daily practice around? Creativity. Do you have one or is it just weekly? Is it all around the show? Or there's some other avenues that you like to express yourself. So, um, you know, talk to us about what? What rich role wakes up and does either every day or, you know, week. What's your frequency and how do you think about your creative time? And you said earlier you intentionally blocked time for Yeah. I mean, I think fundamentally First and foremost, my creativity is probably best expressed as a writer. Um, I think I do a variety of creative things, and I try to be creative with how I do the podcast. And you know what the set is gonna look like Like all these little details like, I think are all you know, creative outlets for exploration that I'm always trying toe kind of evolve and iterate on. But the one thing that I that I do the most diligently is is writing, and that may be writing an introductory block post for a podcast. Or it may be in a particular approach to a journal entry that day. But that's the thing that I'm practicing most consistently. You know, I have fun with instagram and photography. I'm certainly no professional photographer, but I enjoy, you know, the visual medium. And I'm somebody who learns visually, and I'm very aware that that's kind of the the process through which I I'm able to kind of, um, synthesized information and I care about the visual image. So I love playing around. I've got a bunch of different cameras and I take I take tons of pictures that I don't share on Instagram, and I just do it for myself. And I think there's also something important about that, like not everything needs to be shared. And I think a lot of the, you know, creative process or cultivation of your creative spirit should be something that you protect and should be just for yourself. It doesn't always have to be and in many cases shouldn't be for consumption. This is a relationship between you and you, fundamentally, very well said. I like that duality, and I do believe deeply in creating and sharing as a mechanism, or is a muscle that you develop so that you can get things out in more raw fashion that doesn't involve so much judgment that we often all carry around but the other side this the personal development side and not sharing everything. And you know whether that's journaling or any of the examples you give. I think that that is a really important duality that must be maintained. And, um, there's not a lot of folks talk about that. Ah, you and I have also in previous shows and if you haven't listened to them well, first of all, where there's YouTube comments coming in from John Ulcer on YouTube Live has been one of the best podcasts I've ever listened to by either of you, Ron barred, Olson says. This is an amazing discussion as a photographer and influence you have been so inspired by riches journey really appreciate the authentic and humble approach. So to keep that going, this idea of this humility that you have a respect for, um, the different media that you've been experimenting with Andi also traditional publishing channels You the first couple books, if I'm not mistaken, were were through major publishers, you know, And this one here, it seems to be something you self published. Talk to me about that process. Yeah. Yeah. So self publishing is something that that has always interested me. Thea, other books that that I've done and that my wife and I have done together have all been with traditional publishers, and I've learned a lot about how that world works and what that process is all about. And, you know, I've got a lot of love for it as well. Like it, you know, it put it, put me on the map as an author and, you know, I, I've you know, had a fantastic experience working with editors and publishing houses. Eso This is not a this book. Our decision to self publish it is not a slight against that, but I wanted to from a creative point of view. Ah, learn about what it would be like to create a book in house control, every facet of its creation. It's manufacturing its production all the way down to the details, like on the cover. You have this like it's a matte finish, but then there's kind of a raised rib on it, like all these tiny little decisions that you make, I think are really cool and fun. And I wanted to be ableto be part of every aspect of that without having somebody tell me No, you can't do that or we have to do it this way on then to really control the distribution of it from pillar to post. Ah, for a couple reasons. One is this is a very specific type of book. It's an expensive book, given that it's expensive and, you know, multi color with all the photographs and all the like, I'm just not in a position where a publisher is gonna offer the kind of advance that I think this book desire, you know, deserves because it's an expensive book to produce. Um, and it's not the kind of book where you're trying to make the New York Times best seller list like I don't care about any of that. Like, this is a book for the fans. This is a book that's like a keepsake. Um, and yeah, this is an unbelievable gift. This is gonna cry. I am personally going to give this to a lot of people. Think this is like, you know, I really I do. I take pride in being able toe like, Oh, man, this is a great gift for someone and the's. This is just such a beautifully crafted piece of art in and of itself, that amazing gift. Not I wanna plug where we can get the book here in a second, but e I interrupted you, which is just tragic because you were crushing it on a roll around this the ethos of making all these decisions and and that it wasn't something that you cherished to be on The New York Times. It was a different piece of art. So So I keep going, Yeah, so it's really liberating to kind of let go of, like, you know, pre order campaigns And, like, you know, what are the pre order sales and what the numbers look like? Like, I honestly don't care about any of that like this is, you know, I understand that this is like a bit of a niche book, and it kind of liberate yourself from shouldering those kind of expectations is really nice on dime, just sharing it from the heart for people that you know, that for whom you know, it might resonate with. So there's that. And then, um, there's the fact that I know that I could do a subsequent volume, like every year, like I could put out, you know, voicing change volume to next year at this point. And I could do that year after year after year on. I wanted to be ableto completely own and control that entire kind of small universe. Um, and fundamentally like, it becomes a more valuable asset over time. You know, somebody like yourself who you've done self publishing, and you've you've written, you know, published book on a mass level you know the difference. And, you know, five years later, you're making, you know, with the publisher you're making a dollar a copy. Once you earn out your advance And with this book, you know, basically, you know, we make what it you know, everything in advance of what it costs to produce it. And that's been really, you know, cool and awesome is Well, so, um, there's a different kind of kind of creative gratification. I think that comes with that because there weren't a whole bunch of middle men who are making decisions for us and everything reflected in the book is a representation of the decision that myself and the talented, you know, team that I worked with made on a couple of different occasions start a conversation we've whether you've said it and I've sort of paraphrased it or I've said sort of the other side of that same coin. How important is, for example, in this coin doing both having done the self published and the, uh, the big publishing house are their virtues to both If so, yeah, you know, if so, what? What advice would you give to others out there? Because there are people who don't have an option to use a big publisher or to, you know, fill in the blank, be on the cover of a magazine or hanging in a gallery or whatever. So what advice would you have to those folks? And then there's other folks who who have, you know, either. Been on that, uh, the traditional track and, you know, maybe missing out on this being able to control things, and and so what? What advice would you give to creators on both sides of the same coin? I mean, there are pluses and minuses on both sides of the equation, and I really think it's about what your motivation is. If you want to write a best selling book that's going to get into the hands of his many people is possible. The publishing houses are still the way to go with something like that. If there's one thing that they know how to dio, they know how toe distribute wild widely so they know how to get the books into all the bookstores and all the booksellers. On some level, you know, they sort of know how to do publicity, but you really still have to shoulder that yourself. As you and I both know, um but, um, they handle all that, just they handle all the things that you know. You don't really know how to do and most people don't want to do like there's a lot of people. They just want to write books, and they just want to focus on working on the next book. They don't wanna get involved in what the cover looks like and all the minor editing and the typeface and all of that, and the publishing houses know how to do that, and they do it very well. So if your motivation is, I just wanna right and I don't want to deal with the rest of the stuff, Then you're more likely Thio benefit from going with the publisher. And if you're interested in, you know, the book getting into it is many hands is possible. The publishing houses are still the best way to do that. Like you said, not everybody is in a position to get a book deal. The good news is that now we live in a world in which not only is self publishing more and more nimble and available to everybody. The tools are easier to use, the price points are coming down, and the accessibility of self publishing has never been mawr facile. And at the same time, um, the the stigma around self publishing is is starting to vanish. There was a day not too long ago where it's like, Oh, you're self publishing. Well, you must not have been able to get a book deal. And now there's a celebration of self publishing. And when you see a book like David Goggins can't hurt me, you know, which is He decided to self publish that book, and it's out there, you know, selling as many copies as Michelle Obama's book. That's an unbelievable, like bellwether for this paradigm shift in the publishing world. So I think we're going to see Mawr and Mawr accessibility and a mean ability to people who are self publishing. And there are lots of companies out there who are there to hold your hand and walk you through this process like we're doing it all in house and we're handling distribution, and I have some infrastructure here, so I could do that. But most people don't, and there are services available that help you with the production and with, you know, all of the distribution needs that you're going to need eso I'd encourage anybody who feels inspired too bright and to share their, you know, creative spark to explore the self publishing world. And now, when you know people have large digital platforms like yourself, it calls into question the need for that distribution expertise that the publishing houses bring to bear because you have a huge audience and I have a relatively large audience. And what is it like if I just reach out to those people And don't worry about whether Barnes and Noble is gonna put one copy of it in the corner of you know, this gigantic store where it might sit there for a year? Is that really even meaningful or important anymore, and particularly when we're in a pandemic and nobody's going to bookstores? Anyway? What we're doing right now is the most effective way to raise awareness around books and to get people interested in what you have to say beautifully. Well put, I wanna ask one more, follow up there and pull on this thread because you framed your answer largely as I had asked in the in the around the the idea of books. But continue that same you know, theoretical or conceptual response and apply that, if you would, to just doing work that you are self publishing in any industry, whether that's podcast or or others and, you know, continue to riff if you would on you know your your thoughts about you know, you touched on it just briefly like it's not a validation, you know, whether you can and can't get a book deal. So expand on this thread and apply it if you would to other mediums in in maybe the form of some advice for people who are listening and saying, You know, I might not be an author, but, you know, maybe I'm a photographer or a designer or whatever. How doe I go about, Um either, you know, I don't have access to the platforms that you're talking about with big publishers, but extend your advice beyond books and keep the concept of you know what you believe is possible or important in publishing stuff on your own. Yeah, I mean, I think the big idea here eyes an idea that I certainly didn't come up with all credit James all teacher with it, which is Choose yourself and stop waiting or asking for permission to do that thing that inspires you, you know, as somebody who's, you know, 55 four years old and most likely older than almost. You know, most of the people who are watching this. You know, I grew up in an era where they're the gatekeepers, were everywhere, and if you wanted to express yourself or push something into the world, whether it's a photograph or a book or a record or a movie, there were so many people that have to say yes to that. And it creates a culture in which it's less about the work, and it's more about how to figure out how to get all of these gatekeepers to say yes, like that's where the creative energy went rather than in the quality of the ultimate work product that is completely shifted. Now where, although there may be some sense that you know, you got you got, you got it. You need people to sign off on what it is that you're trying to dio. So much of that is now illusion, you know? Yes. If you're wanna get a book published with the traditional publisher, there are people that are gonna have to say yes. If you want to get a a feature film made, you're gonna have to raise a bunch of money. And there's gonna be a bunch of people that have to say yes, but you don't need anybody to give you permission to edit, you know, Ah, movie that you shot on your IPhone up on YouTube. You don't need permission toe hit publish on that block post. And you certainly don't need permission from anybody to self publish a book. So whether you're creative impulse is, you know, visual or literary or some other artistic format your sculptor or you want to create hoodies. You know you can do that now, and you can create your garment line. You can create your side hustle or your business or whatever you know, wherever that creative inspiration is leading you. We live in this beautiful age where that power rests with the individual, and that's unprecedented. And I don't think we talk enough about just how powerful that is. So whatever resistance or barrier that you're experiencing where you feel like, Well, I'm not good enough Or until somebody validates me, I'm just going to keep it to myself. That's the challenge, and it required. That's where the inner work goes into trusting yourself and stepping outside of your comfort zone and getting into a place of faith where you share your your work product liberally. You stay out of the you know the results of that and you engage more vigorously in that creative muse because, you know, and I say this all the time and I'm sure you would agree with me right now, what we need more than ever is people who are, um, self actualized and expressing the best version of who they are and whatever creative medium speaks to them. Lasers. Man, I'm telling you, just like LASIK surgery on my brain. Um, well, last question for you, Bud. And then for those watching, we are going to bounce over to my instagram at Chase Jarvis and you are at rich role and answer a few questions from the community that we couldn't get to here in in this time constraints we had on this show. So we're gonna bounce over there in just a moment. For those of you watching live on with the focus on answering some questions. Um, but as as an extension of your last point, and I think this really underscores a lot of what you've talked about with self actualization about, you know, moving out of addiction, to redemption, to your health and your creativity and living the life of your dreams, this one precious life that we all have. I like to say that the most important words in the world are the ones that we say to ourselves. And I'm curious if you could share your thoughts on that statement and, uh and maybe by example, you know how How do you manage your own psychology and the words that you say to yourself when facing, you know, adversity and success, because they both have a dark side. Mhm. Yeah, it's been a It's been a evolution for me with this. I love this question, I think is a really important question, and I would say that my starting point with this as embarrassing as it is toe say and admit, is that I was somebody and I still combat this and confront this on. I think this is very, um, endemic toe alcoholics and recovering alcoholics. The alcoholic mindset is unique in that it can simultaneously entertain the idea that you're better than everyone else and you know it's best and at the same time think you're a complete piece of shit. Who doesn't deserve to breathe air. And those two ideas somehow find a way to cohabitate with each other, which creates a confusing, you know, psychological morass that I lived with for a very long time. And and what I try to do now is to again engage with humility on the mantra that I repeat to myself is that, um, that I'm enough Ramona's. And I'm not defined by what I do and how what I do is received by the world that, um uh, irrespective of any of that that I'm a human being that has value independence of of you know what my career is or any of the other things, and and that's difficult for May. You know, I'm somebody who really does gauge my my, um, my value based upon you know how successful I am or how good I feel about the creative thing that I just released into the world, and it's it's difficulty for me to separate myself from the actions, right? And that's kind of where the battleground lives for May. Spoken like a true sage. Um, I want to give another one last plug here. Come on. I got to give a flag for this thing. And this is It's just a stunning piece of art and wisdom, packaged, voicing change, inspiration and timeless wisdom from the ritual podcast. If you're not a subscriber toe richest show, you must on I personally, I'm gonna be giving this book a lot for the holidays. And I would encourage everyone. Not everyone probably gets a signed copy. Like I got just to rub it in just for a second. Because I'm grateful, my man, it's been so good to reconnect with you. Uh, it's nice to see you are doing so well. Love the beard. Love it. That you get the lovely point of flair. Um, thanks so much for being on this show and your true ah, true hero to so many and an inspiration. Your journey is, as you said, well documented. Um, but every time we talk, there are new nuggets that I like to share that I take away and that I'm proud to share here on this show. So thank you so much for being a guest. I appreciate that, man. You've been an inspiration to me for many, many years and nothing but crazy, mad respect for everything you dio And more than that, the way that you do it, I just I appreciate it and and, you know, it's it's you've been a beacon in a lighthouse toe help guide my direction, and I appreciate that. So thanks, man on, I should say, just in closing in this shameless plug department, the book is, um, it's only available on my website were not selling it on Amazon. That's kind of part of the whole self publishing things. So you could find it rich role dot com and I will, and we're offering signed copy. So if you want to sign copy, I'm a copy. It I signed like, 750 the other day. It took me, like, five hours like a crazy crazy, but happy to do it so you can learn more about the book and all that kind of stuff. There. Yes. Go to rich role dot com slash v c for voicing change. That's the direct you are. Or you could just go to rich role dot com. The book is proudly displayed there, and that is amazing to know that you'll sign and personalized Thanks for, you know, making sure that we could include that for those. I'll put it in the show notes and please go get a copy. It's stunning again. I watched it just grab hold of my wife and put her on the couch for a while and inspired the hell out of her. Thanks so much for being on the show again. Everyone check out riches new book at ritual dot com slash v c On We are bouncing over to Instagram to answer a few questions. In the meantime, take good care of yourself, man. Grateful to have you on the show and thank you for inspiring me and so many others. Thank you, man. Much love. Thanks for everybody who who wash along really, really appreciate it. Thanks, Chase face