Jared's Business History
I'm gonna take you guys on this little path here about a bombing photographers and kind of the path to going from being the guy that did everything to being the guy that does now what you just saw on that screen there most going to show you a lot of mistakes I made along the way because there's a lot of mistakes to make when you're going and navigating these waters is a lot of air that you can make a lot of a lot of opportunity go wrong on, so I'm gonna share a lot of that with you two because I think that as instrumental as it is to share my success, it's more important to share my failures because you know, failures are things that if we avoid, they could help us stay on the path of what success looks like for each of us individually, so my success might be mine, but my failures you can definitely learn from an apply so you don't have to do that. I'm so again in two thousand two I shot my first wedding I was that I was in school at the university of california, san diego actually ver...
y funny story about my first wedding I was telling some of the crew to black people yesterday at lunch, so my first wedding I went to house so stressed out I mean the first flight and come on right you're like so stressed out, and I've done some sec, I don't want a second shooting for a couple of years at that point, so I knew what I was doing, but it's just so stressed out, and we've got a lunch break and that goes the buffet, and this wasn't the highest class wedding, you know, and the buffet, as I analyze later I had in the beginning they had some chips and dip and then moved on to the sushi station, so, you know, I wouldn't question that looking back, but you're regardless, I was so wrapped up in what I was doing that I grab some chips and then grab some, you know, that big plate of guacamole, as I was leading into the sushi, plopped down on my chips and moved on, and I'm got back to my table, which I was sharing with a couple of guests and proceeded tio have a nice big bite, a couple chips of the big, massive pile of a sobbing on it, not guacamole, and so I cleared through every water glass at the table. I thought my eyes were going to fall out of my sockets my whole face, I thought my brain was going explode mrs during my first wedding, awful awful, that was my first wedding, and that was when I was doing everything and so that was just awful, but that was back when I was doing everything, so all the way up until about two thousand four was when I first started making progress on going through this process and, you know, writing down everything I was doing, and that was when I transitioned full time, and I felt like I really had to change up the way I was doing thing I graduated, and I turned down that job and I went full time in photography, and that was when I trusted somebody. Well, I have up until that point my roommate had actually built where I hosted the photos for my clients, he'd build a portal again. I went to school with a bunch of engineers, so my roommate had built my whole website and my whole hosting platform include a shopping cart in exchange for me to suit his wedding someday, which I eventually we cashed in on back in two thousand ten. It took six years later, but I made good on that promise, so I trusted an actual partner with hosting imprinting, and I move that first. I took that first step towards trusting another partner and taking that off, even though I had that process about in I took that off my plate, and I trusted somebody else have a fill all the print doors for my studio. I went on a cz we go on in two thousand five was when we moved into our studio space, we were growing, we were, you know, booking a decent number of weddings, and when we got down there and we're starting the growth I hired hired a studio manager part time on, so we brought in the student manager part time, and that was really the year when we were really learning more about these processes, so I was starting the process and doesn't four and in two thousand five was when we really wrote everything and that I tell you that it's a painful time to write out everything, it takes a while, so I don't want to just I want to be frank with you guys about it. It takes a long time, right that out. I remember ordering my first album in two thousand five that was the first year that we offered albums as a company, and it took me forty four hours to place my first order with leather craftsman because you have to like, you had to know what this is back in the days before, you know, digital and digital was just coming around in two thousand forty thousand five, and most of my clients wanted custom matted albums, and so I have to write on the back of the photo in like the perfect pencil that didn't dent the photo went corner. You know how that photo was supposed be arranged on the page and it took me forever to figure it out. And so and I was committed to writing the process down every single time I did this, and so is reading these processes out. It would take a long, long time, and it doesn't. Fire was a year where we really tried to make sure that we got the process doubt in I also let go of the blawg. Um and we trusted we started trusting our studio manager, teo, help out with the blogger and to do that to prepare all the images and just go through those what turned out to be a hundred forty seven steps, which we did whittled down and post on the block. We also had her handle a lot of those e mails. So email was taken over by her and she took a lot of that. And what that really allowed me to d'oh. And this is the point I really want to start to make with you guys is when I was able to let go of some of those processes and I goes able to start off very small. I was able to start off very small and let go but it freed me up to focus on the things that I was really good at it freed me up all of a sudden instead of doing email I could go network all of a sudden instead of having to do the block post I was freed and I was so happy because now I could go market and that's what I really love to do I love toe come up with creative ways t market my studio and so it was like this it was like this double epiphany that not only was I not have to do the things that I didn't feel were very efficient and I didn't feel I was very good at but it gave me more time to do the things I did feel I was efficient at and I did feel I was really good at and so it had double it had a double bonus to it it was really amazing um I just want to make sure that I impart that on you guys that letting go some of the things you're going to go the things that really are free s rating or hard or bog you down that's where the things you're going to let go of first and it's going to give you so much freedom to go do the things that you actually truly love and the things you're really really good at and yes there is a little bit of a cost that you have to invest, but that investment pays itself off unhappiness alone, and then if you take that time to make good on it, well, then you know you're going to you're going to see the results of that. We also did a lot of things bootstrapping that year, you know? I mean, I was a year out of college funding this business all on my own, you know? And so things some things we did that maybe weren't all that smart that year, bronson, I decided that how hard could carpet be to put in? So we ripped out on the carpet ourselves and put carpeting ourselves, and you don't realize I don't know if you've ever had someone come out and put a carpet in your how's your ceo, they like, stretch it and nail it down, and you don't really have the tools to do that as a photographer. So speaking of specializing in trusting someone he's good at it, that didn't work too well, screening of having to get that done after we wasted all that time and money on carpet and kind of throw it out so many blunders that yearit's funny to go back through it all, the first person that we hired for our student manager. Turned out to be absolutely wonderful and she was great for our business, but the problem is, and this is a problem that can turn up sometimes is when you hire someone who's great, they can overshadow your mistakes with your with your manual. So lindsay was so good as our first studio manager that she would go in and look at our manual and it be wrong, and she was like, I had to do that better and she just do it better. And so what really happened was when we got a studio manager and down the road, that wasn't that kind of personality, and that was when all these holes came and what we uncovered all these holes, and so you've got to be careful. Sometimes you're going to trust someone or a partner or something, and they're going to be so good they do. They're going to overcome some of the areas that you didn't dive deep enough and it's a blessing and a curse all the same time. It's a blessing and a curse so even lends more importance to making sure that you write that manual as well and as deep and as detailed as possible because they always end up leaving at the worst possible time or something always ends up happening the worst possible time, and you want to have that solid foundation from which you grew your business so next up was two thousand six and bronson went full time that year that was his first year full time at the studio had been shooting with us since two thousand three or four, but he hadn't been booking his own clients and we were really moving to an associate model where both bronson and I were working each as a cz primary photographers and wade took the student manager and put them at full time and we started outsourcing the album design and the by the print in the bind of the album, so the whole album process got let go of that bronson was a graphic designer that was that was what he majored in in college so in bronze and I first put together this business plan we thought this is perfect bronze has a graphic design degree, I have a business degree and we're both you know, good photographers it's going to be great? What problem is is I would spend so much time shooting and doing all the things that went along with shooting that I didn't have any time to grow the business bronson was spending so much time shooting and doing all the things that required of shooting that he didn't have any time to do anything that was related to design so we didn't have any website we don't even have a brand wouldn't have any graphics and then the albums were going designed album designs were taking six months. We were not able to do the things we needed to dio, even though there were things that we were strong at the things that we were so strong that we weren't doing because we're having to fulfill the obligations of the business. And so we took a step, and in hindsight, what we should have done is let go of the things that we weren't good at and that we didn't love and that's it's okay worked out well, but we let go of the out, design the print in the bind and that's something that probably would've been better. We probably would've been better like it's in the else go and have bronson stick with that it worked out fine, but looking back on it's like, oh my goodness, we let go of that, but we got caught back up. We sometimes we make decisions when we're so far behind that aren't the best and that's why? When the question came up earlier about when should I decide this is an example of why you don't want to decide? In the moment we were four to five, six months deep and album designs, and so we had to let go of that because we had no other option, when in fact, if we have planned ahead it would been better to plan on taking something else off of bronzes plate so he could have fulfilled that with which he was trained to do and actually really love to do so. That's what happens when you make those decisions in the moment and it's not in the world, it worked out fine for us, but it would been better if we'd done something a little bit differently. Um that was also the year that bronson, going full time started meeting with clients, and that really brought to my full attention how important these manuals are because bronson did things totally differently than I did and we weren't always on the same page, but we were part of the same company, nothing wrong with that again. Bronson has his own way of doing things and I have my own way of doing things that's not bad until they come into collision with each other and that's what happens sometimes we bring somebody on and they do something different, not wrong, just something different than what you were doing and you're like, what the heck this block post is all wrong? This design is terrible this insert, you know, fill in the blank and that was great for me and a good challenge for me and for bronson to go through that because it helped us define what we wanted to be standard for us so we have a standard way that we blogged post we have a standard way that we talk about things they have a standard that we do things have a standard order of operations we go through after every wedding we agree on the same turnaround times that's what our business it's and we settle on that we've brought both minds together going back to that question from the earlier segment we bring both minds together and we I really do believe that we're stronger because we've brought that that we brought that together, so she doesn't seven so two thousand six was the first year that we kind of turned the corner we did eighty five weddings I think eighty four weddings between bronson and I that year, so I think he did forty for nineteen forty two r he had forty three now I was not married thankfully bronson still married thankfully, so both those things worked out I don't know how we did were shooting all the time and then fulfilling everything with those weddings and so in two thousand seven is when when we decided to really try to make some changes that was when we first incorporated, so it went from kind of just being a sole proprietorship to an s corp we're not going to talk about that much today at all but a topic I know people ask a lot of questions about we start outsourcing our color correction that year, and that turned into shoot dot edit, we didn't intend to start shootout at it. It just kind of happened. We started by hiring someone myself on garroted to do all of our weddings to edit over weddings, and we share that editor. And then all of our friends started saying, wait, it's, somebody editing your winnings free that's awesome! Can I get in on that? I'm so far behind, and so we kind of thought that might be a good idea. Like, what about if we just got a few people like, if we could find, like, ten photographers, then we could pay for our editing I mean that's pretty cool, right? And I think you use now she done that started and so way opened up the website and way open on the website and like march, and by that summer, we had a wait list. I think it was around a thousand people long they're like oh, so about that, but we were getting our color correction outsourced and that's really the key of this slide taxes I started trusting something my taxes. Why was I doing my taxes? Oh, my gosh, that's, that classic I can do this, I'm a man, I can do my taxes, and then I incorporated and it's like, you know, do you want to straight lined, appreciate or, you know, this camera can depreciate across five years and this thing and I was like, ok, I'm learning my lesson slowly, I'm continuing to learn my lesson. Why do I not trust people? They're specialists in this there are people that specialize in doing taxes. Why am I banging my head against the wall? Spending weeks and weeks and weeks do my taxes when I could be out with clients or out with other vendors or marketing my company? Peirong cheese that was just awful and here's the thing about payroll, I tried to my own payroll little bit. I've tried to do everything myself. You guys, I'm the poster child for how not to start and do this. I tried to be my own payroll, so I would like they give you these forms in california, we have to fill out and like, if you don't get him stamped by the bank, you have to get him standing me how old fashion is this, you have to get him actually, like stamped and then tournament by a certain date, I was always late, and so I realized that I was paying more penalties by doing it myself that I would pay in the fees that have a payroll company do it that's what finally convinced me to just like off the payroll so it's just like come on I mean, sometimes you gotta hit me over the head sometimes, but really I was getting attacked getting the hang of all this two thousand eight was one enter went full time and that was a that was a hard that was a hard moment for us after we have been with us for a couple years at that point and still is with us to this day obama photographers an amazing amazing shooter amazing amazing worker and he was just kind of part time at that time helping things out and this was the year that I made a mistake and hired the wrong person in our city manager and only with the wrong person, but they kind of uncovered all the holes we had in that system that we put together, and I realized that it was as much my fault as it was their fault that I had failed her as an employee of the company by not saying you're on for success. Um and so we did move on from that and I called editor on a friday night and said, hey, we don't have a studio manager anymore on I think that you're actually right guy for the position can you start on monday morning and enter as he's been throughout his entire time with us and I'll talk more about that was like sure, I'll be there monday morning and left is that a job to come full time as a student manager? And we started uncovering all the holes that we had in that system that we have put together two thousand nine was when I started really after having spent three years right in the process and they're not doing with the process and then going, oh my gosh, why did I write? You know, I have to let somebody else help me with this area and with that area so than I was when I really finally started focusing my time on shooting, marketing and networking, and we'll talk a little about the story and about how we grew in the next segment in our business from the marketing standpoint, so you're going to be able to compare this story up against our story when it comes to how we get our clients it's going to kind of fun transition, I won't put them side by side cause there's only one screen, but you'll remember like, doesn't it was when he said, you start doing that in two thousand nine over here is when the marketing kicked off, but I wasn't I was when I really started focusing and I really focused on shooting a marketing network and I just came alive I truly came alive because my time was spent if it wasn't spent shooting, it was spent marketing or is spent with other vendors and and I really love that was fantastic on guy really kind of came in my own so I wasn't twelve is we know that was tailing the last year was when I moved now to just shooting and consulting for the company, so I shoot and I called my weddings and then I consult for the company I still do a bunch my portrait sessions with all my past clients I still consult with them still hang out and still part of board all that and I literally just a photographer for the company that I started so it's are really cool one hundred and eighty degrees or three hundred sixty degrees that you know, you look at it and that's kind of the evolution of my business and how it's played out and what I think is really interesting about that is that you know, she doesn't thirteen looks so different than any other year has looked in the past but my goal and my metrics what I want out of my business has totally changed in those eleven and twelve years it's totally adjusted and adapted I talked about how when I start I just want to be a photographer and now I want to be a photographer that helps other photographers I started doing that when I started bringing other people on my team I started realizing I could help other people I could help people like bronson he's been my best friends, and I was five years old and we work great together and we're still best friends in this day and bronson loved art and he's he's a way better photographer than I am. He has handed down a way better better than I am, and I just can't I get chills thinking about what would be like if he wasn't a photographer right now and what would have happened if I hadn't been able to give him that opportunity? And then if he hadn't been able to come alongside me and challenge me in all the ways that he has handing a part of obama photographers has mitt has been what's made it successful without him being a part of it, it would not be what it isthe and together we've made it better, and that was when I first moved when I started working with bronson was when I first moved from being a photographer to being a photographer that wants to help photographers, and I never knew that would come full circle and she got at it and in education and being up here on creative live all these different things, you don't know how things are going to change. You don't know how it's gonna just you don't know what life is going to throw you. You don't know what things is going toe are going to come up and gonna happen and having this system in place and having it in place so that you can make decisions off of it, and so that you can have it to govern and to guide your business gives you the ability to adjust as you go, it gives the ability to have metrics that support what you're trying to do. And as you see from my story, it took me a long time to get there so that's both an encouragement and a discouragement in encouragement in that you can take your time getting there, you can write the process and like you mentioned, you don't necessarily have to do everything right off the bat. You got to sign everything out right off the back, but if you start by reading the process and then you work down from writing process all the way into determining the most efficient way for you from your business, then you have the freedom to break whatever rule you want and you congrats go because now you're focused on your strong points when I am, too has nine started on ly shooting and marketing and networking. I flourished, I feel like I just came alive. I feel like I was so excited and it wasn't that I wasn't alive before, but it just feels like I wasn't in comparison to how I was starting. Then I'm gonna pause here, we've I know we're coming up on the edge here, and I want to throw it out and see if anybody here had some questions. I want to ask you guys what I want to go around again and just ask each of you to say one thing that you feel like you could probably start by a signing out and then maybe take some questions, you know? I'll start over here this side, actually, oliver, I'll start with you this time. I think one of things I can start helping my business go out would be, you know, actually doing the color correction. Klein my work, I mean to me, that's, something we were talking about you were mentioning about the ranking that's, one of the top things that take a lot of time and no, frankly, family, be honest, it's not my favorite thing to do in my business aspect. So I think for me, one of the first things I could do start outsourcing that you don't know until I take a lot of time you wanted to a cost analysis, see if it cost you ton of money, but you already identified it's saying, you don't have to be the one to do so that's a great thing like off here with me e I start talking about where that thing goes on about your life, for giving a determined every year to do my own taxes every year just struggle through it and so I totally get that ok? You're right here with me. Um, she's well, I was thinking that to be great once I get my system's down a little better, tio haven't intern help me or hire somebody just this faras doing, uh block posts and things like that so you enjoy blockbuster it's grueling we'll take that to be now I like it, but it takes a long time to me. I would like to maybe yeah, make it us is yours one hundred forty seven steps to think or maybe not just knowing what takes me a long time. I know certain projects editing that I have to do myself and other projects I know I'll just bring my hair out and just be annoyed and just be so much easier to have someone else do them so that's awesome that's great okay for me and is definitely email I wake up in the morning and do not want to check my email because I always have so many and some of them are basic so I have to think things through and it takes a long and then I don't end up responding to people so I lose lots of jobs but I feel like if I was struggling so much with you know myself like how can I hand that off to somebody like they're probably going to struggle to they're not going to know what to say and then it will take a lot of times so right? And so if you don't have that system and sometimes the system helps us more than it helps anybody else because if you know someone's we we go into these things and we're like I am so I don't even really know how my my approach works with this like how do I do email I lose stuff it's not that great of a system you need a system for yourself before you can even think to hand it off to somebody else but your system is going to help you stay on top of things going to help you book more clients your client should be happy because you get back to him sooner and then you'll have that system and if you want to still at that point I could hand it off or I could keep doing it myself that's a great one the most huge because we could just sit on him all day you know it just keeps coming in just keeps coming I was over nearly a couple she months ago now doing a little work and a lot of play and but it was great being over in italy because I would check my email in the morning and I would've gotten all my e mails because you know, we're like not a lease like nine hours ahead of where I was in san diego, so I've gotten all my e mails it's like bam, bam bam bam b bam go through no one's responding no one no, he most coming in middle of night back in the states and I'm like, oh good I'm done I'll check back in tonight and I'd come back tonight a bunch of responses saying that none of them I was like, man, that is the way the email should be if you do it right if you just do it a couple times a day, but what do we do? Sit there with it open and there's an email look facebook message there's a twitter all shoot gotta get back to that meal what was a singing her an email about someone just put this thing on facebook way just go back and forth and back and forth so and we were going to say I think that so I have used shootout at a few times, but unfortunately I think I'm the person who waits to use it until I'm underwater so even though I have that credit which is ridiculous that I wait for it, I think that being more proactive and is committing to that incorporating that cost from the beginning from the outset and even like you said earlier if it's in place then you can use it and you can choose not to but if it's in place it's there it's there so I think that and then also probably taxes and counting I think that would I think I spend so much I enjoy numbers, but I don't have that knowledge and so I could learn it but I think oftentimes I spend so much time looking up things like ok, so let me go google this and then suddenly three hours later, you know, I've almost found the answer. So imagine with the three r's could do right down in virginia, but you're ten days three hours dedicated to meeting people or dedicated to finding out you know what the best spots to shoot weddings here or, you know all those different things that as those three hours could do insurance going to cost you some money but on ly you could be the one who meets those clients versus the taxes or versus you know the editing somebody else could be doing that and so it is it's frustrating because it is a choice you have to make but choosing not to necessarily grow your business or do the things you really strong at it can really hurt you sometimes like what you talked about where you just get overwhelmed in the end totally it's and we all go through that is really I mean, I'm seriously we all go through this and it takes us a while case in point sometimes they get their joy for me I've outsourced taxes I've outsourced albums but products in print fulfillment I haven't ever outsourced and I know I'm missing out on a lot of extra income from offering products but I just hate the whole idea of all the little steps and getting back and so that would be huge if I could I could tackle that if you get tackled or have someone else title that right a process and just see where you live yeah great, thanks that anything from the online audience can we have the numbers? Similar theme questions on taking out first prisoners and so tough toodle molly mom kris hatchet they all asked, how do you best protect the integrity of your brand and find someone that is a good fit and resonates with your work processes or the manual artie in place like how do you any ideas their strategies for that definitely if you again you want to look at it like a partnership you want to look like a partnership what would you be doing if you were you know I mean I this example sounds people after his example but if you were going to go on a date with him what would you think would you you know, a lot of the characters to be looking for you know you have your characteristics you be looking for about some of you go on a date with someone you want to end up settling down with you want to marry somebody you're going to fall in love with you should have the same characteristics for your business and for the things that these members whether it's a person or a company need to have to be a part of your business and it helps to understand what that looks like before you go into choosing them you know there's a lot different qualifiers you can use it really comes down to though is picking companies picking people you're gonna bring on your team picking companies you're going bring on your team that share the same goal or share the same purpose or understand your purpose and can jump in and be a part of that purpose if you're bringing on a team member you know sharing your purpose with them is fantastic scene if airline with that seeing what they share and seen if they're the right person and again, I'm not that kind of starts with things, but I, you know, there's a lot, you know, there was a recent article in ink magazine where a ceo is talking about how he doesn't hire for the position he I was the person and figures he can training to do anything, you know, and I like that approach, I'm not sure I agree you can train anyone to do anything, but with the right system in place, people can do the job, but people are what matters and the people that are going to do the job or what matters more than finding, you know, the right person, but a job that resume that matches up. And I like that approach trying the same approach can be said about your partner that you're picking for an outsourcing company if you're gonna bring on a company instead of a person, which I think is a lot easier, you know, it's it's hard to manage an employee, I know because I've done that for years and years and years it's really hard. I mean, the thing about hiring employees is that it makes us feel so good, it really does it makes us feel so successful as a business owner to hire someone. And I don't think we know still always understand how much extra work that kids and that brings and it's like there's so much more that goes into it and so we we really get to a point where we we get frustrated with that we almost got that same process again that we talked about and so hiring a company that's going to handle all that for us I think can be a better first step for you because you don't have to jump all in and deal with payroll taxes and deal with you know them not showing up to work and deal with all the things that go along with that you can just trust them to be specialist in what they do and I look forward I look for those specialists I look for people that can align with my team great and we have ah follow up question that's blog's specific way have from cat tankersley photography she's watching from her hotel room in miami and she would love to hire someone to write out blogged post can you suggest where to start looking for someone to help with that? And then we have a similar question from rk photography what is the going pay rate for outsourcing blogged posts that's a great question you know, generally speaking you can get a tw the base level you can get copy written for about I think it's about ten dollars for five hundred words is what companies will offer, and I don't know how special I don't use those companies, by the way, I don't have special eyes. It is, I don't know if they'll write like a cz intimately as you want them to write or something like that. I don't know if that's what they'll do, but that gives you a rough framework for what people will pay to have copy written and, uh, what was the first question? Yes, at first question, which is the first question is, where would you live? Where was fine? Yeah, you know, people, there's there's a lot of people out there looking to do these kinds of jobs, and I would I would I always start when I'm looking to hire someone by talking to my network, and I figure that I've I've never had to post a job ad on craigslist or on any like that, because I've always been able to just talk to my network and get referrals, and somebody knows somebody who knows somebody who and then now you have that extra added connection where you can you can talk about the things that go deeper than just what you do, and you can get that level of why you do it so much quicker with them. And rather than having to go out and take a little bit more risk and a little more work to try to find someone outside of your circle of influence question, so especially I do a lot of good wallwork and after the session, I have the girls come back to buy stuff, and I'm getting a lot better, but I know I'm not sells person, so I know that I can't make the kind of money that somebody who really understands how to do this, I could. But is that something that you think I should be selling? Because I do or that I should get someone else to do? Or is that something that I could even incorporate into a studio manager? Or is it best to just get somebody who is really good at cells already all of the above? That would be my answer. I think you definitely should be the one selling, if that's what goes back to something that you feel is exactly what you want to be doing. And that is, you know, an intimate part of the client relationship that you have some studios have that approach now this two years that's, not the approach, you can create it either way, and there are people that specialize in sales. You can have a studio manager do the sales. I know that right now. Obama dollars that's what the studio manager is therefore he also does thean person sales after the event. You can do any of the things that you mentioned now that probably answer a question, but there is no right answer with that. A lot of these things do I hire? Do I bring someone in to do the blogging? Do I have my studio manager of the blogging? Or do I trust the company to the blogging? We could apply that exact same question. So I love that question. We could apply that to anyone of the processes that we wrote out. And the question comes back to where you are at your business, how high it ranks on priority and how intimate of a part of it it needs to be for what you broadcast and what you bring to the table for your business. That would be how I would answer that. So you were talking about you throw it out to your network, you really utilize your network and rk photography is asking what if you don't have a network it? How do you make that network bigger, can you make that network bigger? Well it's been easy for me to develop a network because I love interacting with people and I love going out and kind of explain that network. I would say that my network is so important to me, and I turned to it every time I need help with anything, and I appreciate when my network turns to me every time they need help with anything like I think that sort of network is therefore it's to support each other because together we're all a lot stronger and so I would encourage anyone his network isn't big enough to go out there and continue to push the envelope, oliver I heard you talking at the break about how we're talking about the dream and about how challenging it was when you know, you just had to go up to somebody and talk about your dream out of the blue, and it was very challenging. I think that sometimes we have to challenge ourselves and in areas we're going to expand within this regard with explain our network, you have to challenge yourself, you have to push yourself to get out there, and then you get to lean on them. In times like this, you get to lean on them when you need to expand your team. When you have a question about sales, or about taxes, if you have questions, you have your network. But you have to work to build that network and that's going to require laying the groundwork just the same as it would take to build a client base just the same as it would take to build a business. It takes work going out there and doing it.