Time Strategies for Work and Life
She is an expert on time management she's also the author of the book what the most successful people do before breakfast. She's a frequent contributor to fast company's web site and she is the mother of three living just outside philadelphia with her husband. We'd love to introduce miss laura vanderkam thank you, thank you for being here. We're all very excited. I'm excited to be here. I am excited to get started. All right, I'll let you take it all right? But we thank you all very much for joining me. Those of you here in the studio audience those of you at home thank you for being here. We are going to have an extremely productive day and we're gonna start that productive day with a little quiz kind of like we're a teen magazine here. I'm not sure what stage of life everyone watching this is in. I've heard a little bit about our folks in the studio audience here, but I have I have a couple of little kids and we're big into princess movies and one of the first princess movies of snow...
white, and you'll recall that scene in the snow white, the evil stepmother vera mirror on the wall, who's the fairest of them all well, we're going to a quiz that gets at the modern equivalent who is the busiest of them all so those of you at home please don't take out pens and paper those of you who are here can take out your pens and paper to we're going to give ourselves a point for each yes answer so tell you'll be telling this up there ten questions you khun give yourself a point for each yes answer and we'll see who's the busiest of them all here so give yourself a point if you have flown anywhere in the last week give yourself a point question too if you did any work after nine pm or before seven am give yourself a point if you get over one hundred e mails a day really males here not just the j crew ad I like the j crew ads but give yourself a point if you get one hundred e mails a day give yourself a point question for if you have been double booked for a time slot in the past week question five give yourself a point if you have scheduled things in less than fifteen minute increments so if you've honestly been like yes this is going to take ten minutes let's let's give yourself a point for that question six you have eaten a meal in the car or on public transit those of you in the bay area I know you are big into your public transit here question seven give yourself a point if you have kids at home question a give yourself another point if you have three or more children or if any of them are under age five question nine give yourself a point if your spouse or partner traveled anywhere in the last week and finally question ten give yourself a point if you had a volunteer or community function to attend in this past week so tally this upstart telling us that pope folks at home you can start sending in your totals start sending in your totals and the people here in the studio audience I want you to stand up can you stand up for me and now I want you to sit down sit down if you have one point sit down if you have two points said two out of you know three points sit down if you have four points five points six points seven points what is it nine points oh my goodness well yes exactly exactly way have nine points here from kathy how what we have coming in here oh gosh we've got only five points from a lia williams jesse l says not liking my rapid escalation of all these points way we're gonna go ahead and crown kathy busiest um kamal yea I sure that's something you really wanted to win it but as you can see we're all busy we had people standing up for a while here uh it we're all busy and so no wonder that time is our number one modern obsession? Some people have enough money, some people may even be having enough sex a hope you guys are glad we didn't do it clears on that today standing up for that, but no one seems tohave enough hours in the day. Nonetheless, I hoped to convince you here today that we do have time for whatever matters to us, and we will be talking today about strategies for making the most of your time so you can get more out of it doom or feel better about it. We'll be talking about how to take control of our time and how we perceive it strategies for feeling more in control of our hours and our lives, so we'll do doing broad time management strategies during the first session today in the second session will be talking about how we tackle our mornings in the third session will be talking about how we tackle our weekends and in the fourth session will be talking about how we tackle our work days. But first I have a number of here one hundred sixty eight hours so quick show of hands who knew before I just put this up here, what, one hundred sixty eight hours wass anyone you knew you knew that was twenty four times seven people say twenty four seven all the time no one ever multiplies it through it kind of funny kind of funny that we never do that there are one hundred sixty eight hours in a week well this isn't how we usually think about time but I think it's a better way to think about our time and here's why let's take two days wednesday and sunday which is a usual day for you they both occurred justice often they both have the exact same number of hours but if somebody were to observe you on those two days they would have a drastically different picture of what your life looks like. So one hundred sixty eight hours corresponds to the cycle of life as we actually live it and second looking at the number one hundred sixty eight hours shows us just how much time we really have. So I like to do a little bit of calculations for people here is we've got one hundred sixty eight hours so let's say that we work forty hours a week all right, so let's subtract forty hours here that leaves us with one hundred twenty eight hours if I make a horrible math mistake somebody just speak up and tell me s so we've got one hundred twenty eight hours now let's say we sleep eight hours a night so there's seven nights in a week there's eight hours a night so seven times eight is fifty six hours so let's subtract fifty six hours here this year so far, the brother one oh, my goodness, that leaves seventy two hours there's so if we're working full time forty hours a week, if we're getting enough sleep eight hours a night, that leaves seventy two hours for other things that kind of sounds like a lot of time to me, but let's say you work more than that, right? We can we can adjust these figures let's, say your working fifty hours a week so that's more than full time hours let's say you still sleep eight hours a night, which many people claim not to do. That would leave sixty two hours for other things sixty two hours that still sounds like a lot of time and just for comparison sake. The center for disease control and prevention on li asks us to exercise two and a half hours per week, right thirty minutes a day, five times a week, so sixty two or seventy two waking non working hours two point five to exercise yet how many people say I don't have time to exercise? Can't you see I'm working fifty hours a week? Or how many times have you heard people say, oh, you spend the majority of your waking hours working not so much right if we're working forty hours a week sleeping eight hours a night we have seventy two hours for other things for working fifty hours we have sixty two hours for other things you'd have be working fifty six hours a week before you get to the point where you actually spend as many hours not at work as you d'oh and as we'll see in a little bit very very few people really work fifty six hours consistently so clearly there is a bit of a disconnect between these numbers I just you know went through for you and the perception because despite the calculations I just did I can tell you that most people feel star for time right? We feel busy busy, busy we feel starved for time and I like to collect some statistics that purport to show this and some of these air kind of silly but someone has claimed them is something reputable s so here's one of my favorite ones dual income couples can on lee find twelve minutes a day to talk to each other but clearly we're not looking that hard right? If we've got seventy two waking non working hours we could only find twelve minutes a day to talk to each other. We're not looking very hard but that's what we say or consider this ninety percent of americans can't find two hours a week to volunteer if you volunteer two hours a week you are in the top ten percent of americans and get this this is a little depressing for those of us who write for a living, only half of americans have read a novel, a poem or a play in the last year a poem it doesn't even have to be the wasteland two could be a haiku, right? But we're not doing that so what's going on here, why are these numbers and the perception so different? Well, here's, what I think is going on, we have no idea how we're spending our time, right? And so we easily fall prey to certain beliefs, certain beliefs that were crazy, busy, crazy beliefs about the time crunch or star for time and because we believe that that makes some fall causes us to make some faulty decisions that limit our lives so that's a problem right? That is a problem. I hope you'll pardon a extremely brief foray into sociology here, I promise it will be brief because I find a subject fascinating the study of time use it's this whole academic discipline and some day I'll write a book about it and no one will read it, but I'll be happy I was how I get to tell the geek out on this topic here but anyway, if you want to know how much time someone devotes to something, you have a couple waves of figuring this out and the first the most easiest way is that you? Just ask him all right, how many hours do you work? How many hours do you sleep? How many hours do you spend washing dishes? And so these are simple and cheap kind of telephone surveys to dio and so a lot of what we know about american life comes from such surveys, right? But there are two problems with these quick response surveys. The first problem is that we are clueless, and the second problem is that we lie to small problems. So first, the clueless part most people don't know there are one hundred sixty eight hours in a week, right? We didn't know that here until we just multiplied it through, and so they have no idea how many hours they devote two things if you don't know the denominator on a fraction it's kind of hard to figure out how big that fraction really is, right? Yet the problem is people don't want to say, I don't know they feel compelled to give an answer to the nice lady taking the survey on the phone. And so she asks you how many hours a week you spent washing dishes you're going to give her an answer is going to be an answer like five hours, and if you think about it, this cannot possibly be right now some of you may have heard of the wisdom of crowds theory and this says that this should all come out in the wash right? So some people are ridiculously high some people are ridiculously low but together we get pretty close to the right answer and that's true but it's on ly true in the absence of systematic bias and systematic bias is a fancy way to say lying because it turns out that in our competitive world we lie about all kinds of things right we lie about how many hours we work you work sixty this week that's nothing. I work seventy hours this week seventy hours that's my light season or my my particular favorite it was at a party once and a young man informed me that he was working one hundred eighty hours a week at his startup. So wow, I really need to invest in this they've managed to figure out a way to generate twelve more hours per week than a week actually contains wait do the same thing with sleep only we do it in the opposite direction, right? So that's human nature way exaggerate the things that we I don't want to do and we underestimate the things that we do want to dio so we do this the opposite direction and sleep so you slept six hours last night I wish I slept six hours last night we re create that old money python skit I was like that one was six hours of you were lucky right? Anyone saying that when you were lucky I slept for hours last night well I have three kids ages six and under and I can tell you I sleep way more than four hours a night I think more than six hours a night sometimes I even sleep more than eight it's awesome but that happens so there is a wee bit of cluelessness ah we bit of lying but fortunately there is a better way to figure out how people spend their time. It's called a time diary study and the best known one is done by the bureau of labor statistics it's called the american timepiece survey but several universities have done different versions of this I'm working on my own time diary study that's looking at women who have big careers and kids and I'd love to tell people more about that if you want to visit my website but anyway what you d'oh I mean what the american time use survey what you do what they're doing is they tell people they're studying time and then you have a researcher call somewhat someone up you say I want to talk about yesterday let's talk about yesterday what time did you wake up what did you do next? What did you do next and after that and since the researcher isn't asking about any specific category of time or less likely to give kind of socially acceptable answer's, right? So if I asked somebody how many how much time per day do you spend reading to your children? You're probably going to think of your best day ever write your best day of reading to children is going to some high number, but that's not something you repeat on a daily basis, but it's socially acceptable. So that's what you'll say and so you know, with the researcher on the phone you also are reminded of the realities of time and physics that you cannot say that you spent twenty eight hours working yesterday, even if you felt extremely overworked. Right? So without the ability to be clueless and tow lie, we find some very different things about american life. For starters, thie average american sleeps weigh more than eight hours a night. It's actually more than eight and a half hours per night. You guys have a little look on your face. I can tell you no one ever believes me when I tell them this and it's. So let me say right now I am not saying that you sleep more than eight hours and cheryl, we know we know doesn't was burning, burning the midnight oil and waking up early so on average means nothing about any individual person and just to be clear, the american time use survey also contains data on americans who are over age fifteen so we've got teenagers in here, we've got retirees in here, so maybe some people who might be driving up the tallies a wee bit, but that said that there are thousands of people in here, thousands of people in the study see concise the the data, different ways by different demographic groups, and we see that even the people we think of as busiest, so let's say working parents with young kids also sleep about eight hours a night on average. One reason that we have enough time to sleep is that we're not working nearly as much as we think we are. S o the average full time work week is, in fact, right? About forty hours per week. There may be people listening to this, maybe at home are thinking, well, you know, my work week doesn't look anything like that and that's fine, but here's another fascinating statistic. There was a study published in the june two thousand eleven monthly labor review that compared people's estimated work weeks with time diaries, so asking people how many hours they think they work per week and then looking at how many hours people actually work per week, and they found that people who claim to be working seventy five hours a week are, in fact, off by about twenty five hours. And you can guess in which direction, right? No one claiming a seventy five hour work week is underestimating, so in fact, seventy five hours claimed toe work week is really about fifty hours and fifty hours is a lot fifty hours is a long work week, but it is not seventy five hours is not eighty hours it's definitely not one hundred eighty hours, right? If we try to claim that we overestimate housework to write the same phenomenon that makes us overestimate paid, where also makes us overestimate housework? It's something we don't necessarily want to be doing all the time, and so we think it takes much longer than it actually does. So instead of some studies, they've compared estimated housework time with actual housework time and found that people are off sometimes by about five hundred percent. I wasn't kidding about that five hour estimate for washing dishes that was something people actually said, you know that you spend little bits of time here and there, and so it's kind of feels longer than it really is. People claimed five hours a week washing dishes in reality, it's more like one hour more like one hour, and we underestimate leisure time too often to the point of sheer ridiculousness s o I was reading through really simple magazine a few years ago, I'm not sure how many of you guys I agree that I think we have a lot of the target demographic in our in our studio audience for reading riel simple magazine and they asked their time starved readers, what would you do with an extra fifteen minutes in your day? Well, those of you who are here you probably already thinking about this same with ok, we've got one hundred sixty eight hour week an extra fifteen minutes in a day gives us a one hundred sixty nine point seven, five hour week, so clearly everything will be entirely different to compare the one hundred sixty eight hour wait to the one hundred sixty nine point seven, five hour week, but that's what people seem to think was gonna happen. Everything was going to be different in this magical fifteen minutes a day, so people talked about how they'd be playing with their dogs. They do this fabulous cooking, they'd relax in their hammocks and my favorite one that somebody wrote in, she said fifteen minutes of uninterrupted writing time would be a priceless gift. Of course, that left me wondering where she found the time to read real simple and write in a letter about this elusive dream well, so it right breaking news people lie people live breaking news way lie about all kinds of things my my favorite thing we lie about is how often we go to church you kind of think that god would see right through that and yet we still claim to go about twice as often as we actually d'oh but here's why I think it matters the truth sets us free if you want to spend your time better, you need to know how you are spending your time now you want to know where the time goes without making assumptions that you are crazy, busy crazy that you have no time that you have no time to breathe. So the first step to figuring out where the time goes is to keep a time log so here's an example of what this might look like and see this isa spreadsheet with seven days of the week and hours of the day done half now are the time some people like it a little bit even more granular fifteen minutes at a time. Some people like our long blocks of time on and basically what you do is you write down what you're doing as often as you remember and as much detail as you think will be helpful ideally for a week because we remember that one hundred sixty eight hours is the cycle of life as we actually live it you can keep track of one day but a wednesday doesn't necessarily tell you how you're spending sunday and I think those are both worth thinking about anyone here has ever tried to lose weight you know that nutritionist will tell you to keep a food journal and why would do this is you may be eating very well at your meals you're eating your grilled chicken and steamed veggies and all that good stuff but a food journal show purely hypothetically, of course that you grab six macaroons from the kitchen that's next year home office over the course of the day tragically, it turns out that those macaroons do have calories and they do in fact counts. That was sad when I learned that so a food journal will keep you accountable for what is going in your mouth and it's the exact same thing with time a time log keeps you accountable for how you're spending the hours that pass whether you are aware of where they're going or not and you really get to see life in all its glory I enjoy seeing these I've now had hundreds of people send in their time logs to me and they're always fascinating. So if those of you who do get a chance to see the what the most successful people do before breakfast book there's there's several in the back you see people's real lives for one hundred sixty eight hours you know see sleep going across a lot of it that's pretty cool eso some great details of just into people's lives the reality of their lives one of my favorite I had a a pastor keep track of this time this book one hundred sixty eight hours and you see that you know twelve thirty on wednesday he's helping an employee who had a tree fall on their house that is kind of the thing that happens in that line of work part of the job description your past or you go deal with stuff like that? This particular guy had a bit of a multitasking issue we have entries like email slash, facebook slash visit wife not quite sure how that was working for him, right? How that was working for his wife perhaps but you know you see life in all its glory. So starting today starting today, I want you to keep track of your time at least for a few days and ideally for a week you can use a spreadsheet like this one or write it down in a notebook some some fancy shmancy app so everyone who's at home and I want you to start thinking about this. I want you to start recreating yesterday. All right? I want you start writing down recreating yesterday those of you who are in the audience can can start on this too. Well, I'm I'm talking a little bit about this, so start recreating how you spent yesterday what time you woke up what you did next, what you did after that just for me thinking about this I was up brighten early yesterday morning because I had to fly from philadelphia to san francisco so a normal day doesn't start that way a normal day doesn't necessarily start at five am to go catch a plane but here's the funny thing there aren't no typical days right? There are no typical weeks that's what gets us into trouble as we're recording our time we have visions of our lives that don't necessarily correspond with reality all right so there are no typical day is people say well laura, I don't want to record this week because I have a half day on thursday where I'm going to the dentist it's like ok well are you never going to take a half day again in your life that's life right that's what a real weak looks like sometimes we think we never do things that in fact do you happen? They just don't happen as frequently as we like but that's a different matter and that's something you can do about so I encourage you to keep going I encourage it'd be thinking about how you spent yesterday here and keep going at home for a week from now we're not going to sit here and record one hundred sixty eight hours it would be pretty dull while you were doing was sitting and recording your hours and what you've got the raw data once you've recorded how you're spending your time you can start breaking it down into categories so how much time do you work? How much time do you sleep? How much time do you spend in the car or on public transit how much time do you spend watching television sometimes that's a big one how much time do you spend doing housework playing with your kids talking with your partner hopefully it's more than twelve minutes a day and so you'll be telling these up would be telling these up and you'll be asking yourself a few questions first what do I like most about my schedule it's your life hopefully like something about your schedule let's hope so right what do I want to do mohr off with my time and third what do I want to get off my plate? We often have a lot of answers to that one when we start analyzing our time logs we may have a lot of answers to question three but whatever your answers are these will likely be instructive and we will spend today thinking about the answers to these questions so as we think about how we're spending our hundred sixty eight hours what do we like most what do we want to do more of and what do we want on our plates? But before we do I want you to think about some things I'm gonna flip back to this time log the funny thing about this time log it's blank right? So looking forward to the next week you're time is a blank slate, right? It hasn't happened yet you know that eventually we will be on the other side of those hundred sixty eight hours eventually something will fill all this in but what it is filled with is largely up to us. You are in charge of what will wind up going on there for the next hundred sixty eight hours and to get this I want to share some language that I learned from one of the busiest people that I've ever interviewed and by busy I mean that she ran a small business that at the time had a few million in revenue and had twelve employees she also had six children in her spare time, but when I tried to set up an interview with her on a thursday morning find out how she did it all right, how she have that had it all that wonderful for is she was out for a hike I mean, literally she was out on a hike on a thursday morning and of course that made me even more and treat that with this multi million dollar business and the six kids what she was doing out for a hike on thursday morning and when I finally did catch up with her she told me this everything I d'oh every minute I spend is my choice and rather than say I don't have time to do x y or z she'd say I don't do x y or z because it's not a priority so what you think about that language right that I don't have time really means it's not a priority and that is really more accurate language because you know I could tell you I don't have time to dust my blinds but that's not accurate if you offered pay me one hundred thousand dollars to go dust my blinds I would get out of feather duster and start going at it pretty quickly, right? So that's you know that's not gonna happen, but I can acknowledge that it's not a matter of time if I didn't have time no matter what you paid me, I couldn't figure out a way to go dust my blinds now it's really that it's not a priority but that's of course dusting the blinds other things are a wee bit more consequential so let's let's try it some time I'm not gonna prove freed your resume, honey because your career is not a priority who I'm not going to go to the doctor because my health is not a priority I'm not going to play with you, sweetie, because playing with you is not a priority if it's true fine right own that truth, there may be lots of good reasons it's not a priority right now lots of reasons maybe your spouse is doing a lot of playing with your kids, right? Maybe that's why you're not doing it right now maybe you don't like playing with children maybe they don't like playing with you right? There could be all kinds of great reasons that it would not be a priority but if it's not true well then maybe it's time to start rethinking our hundred sixty eight hours maybe it's time to spark start filling our hundred sixty eight hours with the things we think deserve to be there so what does deserve to be there? Well here's where things get a little bit fun we're going to be using our paper and pencil again so I hope everyone has this out. I hope you have these out at home something to write with. So remember the three questions I told you to ask about your schedule what I like most about my schedule so what I want to do more off and what do I want tohave off my plate? Well, when people think about time management they normally think about question three what do I not want to do right? So lots of questions like well, how can I empty the dishwasher more efficiently? Is there a way I can do my errands so that I only have to make right hand turns? Well maybe but here's a better question what are you saving that time for right? What do you want to be doing mohr of with your time so this next exercise we'll get at that so please take out some paper and pencil it's called the list of the one the list of one hundred dreams excuse me, this is an exercise that was shared with me by a career coach named caroline ceniza levine it's basically a completely unedited list of anything you want to do or have more of in your life travel goals, professional goals, personal goals goals for next weekend things you want to do more of in your day to day existence you can think of it as a bucket list if you want anything you want to do or have more of a market your life we're going to start writing these the people at home I want you to start sending them in I want to start posting them in your chat rooms here because we're going to be sharing these and a little bit we will not get to one hundred it takes a while the first thirty come quickly the next six next sixty or a lot harder you really really kind of scraping the bottom of the barrel I've done this it's kind of hard but I want to be writing down anything you want to do or have more of in your life your list of one hundred dreams to just a few of mine while you're writing these down I want to go to the netherlands in the spring to see the tulips in bloom I want to get a novel manuscript published I've written a novel I just need to get it published now I want to write a collection of christmas poems and I want to run a sub two hour half marathon it's a bit of a stretch goal for me kind of kind of slow steady but I'm slow so please be writing down your list of one hundred dreams anything you want to do or have more of in life people who are at home please be sending these in we're gonna be sharing aa few of these so people who are in our studio audience here why don't we start with you while some are still coming in from the chat rooms? Do we have people here who want to share anything that is on your list? Kathy let's start with you. You are the busiest of them all so you probably have lots of ideas of things you want to d'oh the biggest thing is I want to carve out time to read to my daughter more read to your daughter more. All right, well, let's get a little bit more specific on that uh what would you like to be reading to your daughter? I would like to be reading it some of the big books that my mom read to me books mom read to you what's your favorite what do you remember the hobbit ok, so we want to read the hobbit yes to your daughter and your daughter is four and a half or a half do you think she can get the hobbit? She probably won't so we're going to start a little bit start a little bit below that maybe little women women or uh little house on the big prairie a little house on the prairie books right? So I've got read to the daughter and we're thinking through the specific books right? Not just we want to read tio our daughters it's that we have books from childhood that created happy memories for us we're making a list of what the specific ones are the hobbit little women all great choices great to have anything else on the list lots of thing glad that's that's when you wanna share yeah let's go let's go pass about ever what do you have on your list? Well, I have on my list that I I love travel one of the things I'd love to do specifically on a trip is take a cooking class like somewhere where the cooking is you know, very different or foreign to me and for me that would be something I could take back yeah dio in my regular life when I'm not traveling so so a cooking class on a trip so somewhere more exotic you're thinking like morocco or something like that okay let's put that town so cooking class in morocco I really don't know how spoke rocco sorry we'll put that up there look at that and make fun of me a wonderful that's a that's a specific very specifically and I love that he passed it on ever I'm on my list I have a lot of like personal development business trainings events that sort of things I'd like to get out there and do that great is there any one specific one that's actually sure okay what's this possum I have down brendan birchers high performance academy or maybe the experts academy experts academy or high performance academy okay uh well put that down all right go ahead and pass it on to the next person well drawing on the cooking theme I love to cook so I really do you want to go to places where you can go the spice markets buy spices I'd love to teach other people how to cook great food with what you have and make it taste good yeah I got all these great kitchens and there's no food in them yeah I see that you know you don't like you really don't need that fridge you're not properly honoring wanted putting those traditions back from around the world were you you know recipes are passed from I mean, you get grandma's blessing to get her recipe and that's the only way you get it I want to get that out of ground share so spicy and plus teach do to people cooking but sort of values history embraced cut the traditions, cooking traditions wonderful maybe you guys can go to morocco together you can work that out later I it was past the micro where we have a microphone on background yes so I'm really get it buying supplies for craft projects have never doing and just thanks yeah hours going to the craft supply stores and buying things I know and I just had they sit there and I look at them and I always come up with excuses on why I don't have time to do that. All right? So there you've got craft supplies that are probably sitting in a corner in the guest bedroom of the home office right that's where they always are for people. So do you have a specific project in mind that you think like this? Okay, what? What were very specific it's leather wrap bracelet but another bracelet requires lots of different supplies and I probably spent about two hours source in the mall and buying them all wow, they're so we've already put two hours into this project how many exaggerating hours that's, right? Yeah way that happens to the best of us so we want to we want to make this leather bracelet broadly actually d'oh our crafts we've we've done the shopping for our crafts but we have not actually done the crafts themselves ok all right great mine is I have a brand new camera and I there's so many settings on it and new buttons that I don't want to just know it I wantto no it like with my eyes closed okay so I want to get past the basics and just really feel like I can do it like kind of like that fighter pilot you know yes and fly with your eyes closed on this camera that you and the camera are one all right these are all these are all wonderful do we have any that came in we have time great three eighteen media says I want to have my own line of comic book and I want to have a new york times best selling novel and of course rated right at first they don't just put you on the list without a online of comics and best selling book all right those are wonderful way have a lot of travel dreams of pilots get some travel through one of our guests says go to new zealand for six weeks six weeks taariq wants to go to brazil for world cup uh good luck getting tickets there you shatter the galapagos islands we have a lot of travel dreamers here. Yeah just, er, stuff, says, huh, I'd be happy to serve a three hour half marathon e o very great. Well, these are all these air, all absolutely wonderful. I love how specific we are getting on some of these and that's, what you want to do, right, you start looking at, it would be like, ok, let's, see if we could make that a little bit more specific, like, I want to travel, okay, we'll have to go somewhere where I'm going to go, what am I going to do? Their o r I mean, I love the online of comic books, I mean, that's, pretty specific, right? So then you start thinking about what that's going to be.