Demo: Three Kinds Of Creativity
Now, let's talk about different kinds of creativity. We've talked about Benny the Blowfish and different ways to design innovations, but creativity is a much bigger field, and we wanna understand what that is, because things like design are often misinterpreted as, is it art? Is it, you know, applied art? Is it a science? What is it, really? And so rather than just talking about it right away, I'm gonna bring some students up again for three mini design challenges. Let's bring up the first group. We'll have two people come up, and then I'll explain the design brief. The idea here with these challenges is that they're slightly different challenges, but you guys are all going to get the same supplies. We have this cart of supplies that you'll see in a moment. It's basically something that you would see in any kindergarten classroom or art class or something like that, and it's really not about the materials themselves, but the fact that they're just really accessible. And that you'll hav...
e to create something. So each group is only gonna have about six minutes to make something, which is really not enough time to make anything that's gonna win you any design awards. It should be embarrassing, it is embarrassing, but it's also fun. The first group, you have this challenge of building the tallest possible tower, but the tower has to hold the weight of a smart phone. So if somebody's got their cell phone on them, it just has to hold it somehow at the top and be structurally sound. You're gonna be evaluated on whether or not you built something and how tall it is and then whether or not it's structurally sound. Right, so that's one form of creativity. Why don't we start with, we'll just go down the line. So maybe we start with Matt and HD for this first challenge. Alright, welcome.
Thank you. Usually, when I do this in a classroom setting, I just kind of stand back and let the students do their thing, but since we're doing this live right now, I'm gonna come talk through this but also you guys now see me doing the interview questions think about me as your clients, I am some big developer, big wig, and I need a tower, and you're prototyping the tower but you have six minutes to do this as your design architecture firm. And so you can ask me anything while you're doing it but since you have six minutes, you probably want to think while making at the same time. So let's hit go on the making part and think about this. It's a little bit like reality TV, I guess, where you're making something, but also just ask me anything you want that will help you with that. Do any of you guys have a smart phone or do we need to borrow one?
We need to borrow one.
We need to borrow one, alright.
That was gonna be my first question in fact, is where is the phone that we're gonna be working with?
I promise this will not go crashing down. It's gonna stay on the table.
So what sort of structure were you thinking about that this was going to be?
I was kind of thinking about like, I don't really have space in my bedroom for like a coffee table, so I just want something where I can charge my phone but I don't have to like, bend all the way down to get it because I'm lazy.
Oh, that's interesting. So when you say bend down, it sounds like this is something that's gonna be say, lower than--
Well, it just has to be off the, wherever it is. I just want it within my grip because everybody is thinking about, I don't know, ergonomics these days and standing desks. So I shouldn't have to look down at my phone. What if my phone is like there, so maybe I could just read with it.
I see, so when you're saying you're looking at, and it be like on a coffee table or next to your bed, you had mentioned your bed, so is this something like you might wanna see the time on the phone?
Yeah, maybe I could use it to time myself when trying to give a presentation at CreativeLive. Or I can see it as like an alarm clock. Maybe because there's, I don't really have an alarm clock anymore that I have a smart phone. Even this is not mine. So I noticed that both of you guys are building at the same time.
Is this gonna be, like I need one structure, but I know that you don't have a lot of time. So you guys can coordinate with each other too, or maybe--
So what I was thinking, as we're talking with you about what you're looking for. I was thinking that we're both gonna put some structures together, and perhaps we just look at both of them and maybe we'd come up with something just working with you that would work, between the two of them.
Yeah, that's another, so you're forking which is totally valid as a way to approach this challenge, given how little time you have. And then in terms of the phone itself, usually, I mean, most designers would not like this in real life having their client like hovering over them while they're designing things. I know it's kind of a, a little bit of a reality TV scenario but how are you going to address the holding of the cell phone and the bearing of weight?
So the approach I'm taking is I'm building the basis so whatever he's building, I'm planning to kind of incorporate it. Just to make sure that everything, the phone doesn't fall.
Okay, that's a good, that's a good idea. So if, now that you say that, I guess I can think about just what's going to be holding the phone, and then I can kind of not have to worry about the base part of it. So if you worry about the base part then I'll worry about the actual holding of the phone.
So we got some division of labor here, and then we'll figure out how this integrates a little bit later on. So you guys are about the halfway point, no pressure.
So when you're thinking about the holding of the phone, is it just a phone that you have?
It's just a phone, I mean I have a competitor to this brand but...
It's like all cell phones kind of look the same now which is a whole different class completely. But yeah, I think it should be universal enough, 'cause what if I upgrade or if I change my loyalties, I don't want to be tied in to any one brand.
Lee-Sean, can you tell us about your day, how you start your day, when you wake up.
Yeah, I mean I wake up to my cell phone ringing and then I usually put it on snooze and then I open up Facebook or Twitter, and just see what's going on in the world, which has kind of replaced my news too because it's just kind of social curation, looking at what's trending, what my friends are sharing. But yeah, I think, I don't know. I feel like there's some aesthetic value to this as well where we are almost like cyborgs with our cell phones. Like I don't have one on me today because we're in studio, but usually it's always on me. So maybe it's like a throne too, right, of like, this is my cell phone and this is where my cell phone sleeps.
Okay, and you said you hit snooze and you hit snooze like, how many times are you hitting it and how many-- How hard are you hitting it?
Once or twice. (Matt and HD laugh)
I mean I have to like tap and swipe. Alright, we got a couple minutes left. We've got some testing going on, which is good, right?
And when you're checking your newsfeed, are you checking it on the stand or you're picking it up off the--
I usually, like, pick it up at that point. So when you noticed that it wasn't gonna hold before, how have you decided to change that?
So yeah, so I was looking at this and I was thinking, okay, this is too much weight to hold for the height that I have. So I'm thinking that the next thing that I should probably think of is lowering it, but then tightening up these elements, these individual elements. So one of the things was just getting, really the wide angles of the phone to really hold the bottom of it, but then also thinking about how these pieces need to come together and be able to hold the phone at a lower angle. So that was like my thought process for how to deal with it.
So Matt, I know we're kind of short on time, but--
Yeah, now we' gotta put it together.
So one other thing to think about is, this is like a cheat, is thinking about everything that's in your environment. So you have those craft supplies, but if the pipe cleaners are not gonna hold, maybe you just pile the things of tape on each-- Like the rolls of tap on each other.
(laughs) That's true.
Or you take that whole cart, put it on the table, and then put something up onto the cart. 'Cause your original challenge was just the tallest possible tower...
Right, yeah, the tallest, safest thing.
And so you're given these constraints, which are part of any creative process, where you have to make something and you're like oh, these are the ingredients, these are the materials that I've been given, but, yeah, exactly, nobody said this is like, it's not thinking out-of-the-box thinking, it's like thinking-with-the-box thinking 'cause the box is now your material and we're like, it is kind of brute force, but at the same time you've reframed this, of like, he said to use the materials. Well, now we're using all of the materials.
And when you say the tallest tower, is that, are we trying to...
Alright, 30 seconds. We're just trying to get it, I mean this is prototype one. I think we have to test this now, so the phone has got to go up there. It's not, somebody catch it if it falls. We don't wanna break Rakesh's phone.
Awesome, alright, beep, beep, beep. So I can totally do this, snooze, do that. Awesome, alright, let's give these guys a round of applause. (audience applauds) Thank you very much. Alright, so we won't clean up in between. We'll kind of think about this as, even though they're different design challenges, we can build off of the messes that other people have made before, 'cause I think that adds an extra creative wildcard 'cause it's often hard to start with a blank canvas. Starting from zero is pretty hard. So now let's bring up the second group while we talk about the second challenge. So Dean and Carlos can come up for this one. Alright, welcome, so you guys are here. Now I'm the client again. But now you have to build something beautiful, according to me, so you will be judged by your taste level and your aesthetics. So it's a little bit like one of those reality TV shows, but you have some pretty cheap, tacky materials here. So yeah, you can ask me anything and you can use anything that you're given here, and go.
Before we get into the beauty part, tallest possible, that you said you wanted to be next to your bed, to support, do you want it even taller than you, like where you'd have to reach up to reach it or do you really want as tall as possible, or just like tall enough to where you could sit up and it would be at your height?
I really just wanted to push the boundaries of what they were gonna do in six minutes, in terms of height, but I think it was really about having a specific measurable outcome, whereas you guys have a different specific measurable outcome which is about beauty. So yours doesn't have to be the tallest possible tower. Your thing is just something beautiful, the height doesn't really matter. Although height can be beautiful. I kind of like, what's that phrase of the higher the hair, the closer to God, or something. So like, I'm really into like tall drag queens, for example, with big hair. I think that's beautiful. I think architectural fashion things work well. Looks like we've busted out the swatches.
Yeah, I'm just kinda, you guys are kinda like wrapping up the last one too.
You said, hold the weight of it, not necessarily support the weight of the phone, but hold the weight at the top.
Yes, so you don't have to worry about the phone or the height now. All you have to worry about is the making something beautiful, so this is like a totally separate design challenge. But you can certainly be inspired by what they did in terms of, like what do I think is beautiful? I've told you a little bit but you're, I'm kind of leaving it up to you to ask me. I do like, I like this rabbit and bear fabric. If we're gonna go beauty as kitsch, we might as well go full-on kitsch. There's a lot of grandma quilt-type materials here.
Now you mentioned about the hair going out, does this kind of resonate at all?
Yeah, that could be good, yeah. Maybe you could ask me like how, what the use of this object is.
Yeah, so what's the use of this object?
Maybe, this is gonna be dedicated to my friend Lee-Kim who makes masks and hats using pipe cleaners. She also works in design thinking. She does corporate innovation work and this is just a way of, it's a conversation starter for her because the usual social norms in corporate environments is people don't wear crowns made out of pipe cleaners, but she does this to start conversations. She actually has this rule, so as an homage to her, maybe I can have some sort of wearable, beautiful thing. So it has to be wearable by me. I don't know if you need to measure me or something. I'm not usually a passive-aggressive client by the way, but I'm trying to teach at the same time, talking about the process.
So crowns, animals.
Are we ready to start the timer or have we started the timer?
Yeah, I think we've started the timer, correct?
Okay, so we're thinking about some kind of crown. We're gonna use-- Maybe we're gonna work with these guys since...
Can we tape this to the back of your head?
Yeah, of course you can. I'm both model and muse in this ripoff of a certain reality show involving fashion.
Try to back-tape it so it doesn't stick.
This is some prototyping here. So are you still happy with the crown, kind of, decision?
You know what I'm noticing from this prototype is this tape on my forehead has a lifting quality which I think is good for television, this lifting quality was unexpected because it's making me more beautiful, which I didn't expect.
You can mark it back.
Maybe a little yellow touch here.
So we've defined beauty as more is more. (Dean and Carlos laugh)
We've got some fabric...
So designers are we making it work? We're making it work, right?
I would say if you had a pocket...
Oh, a pocket square. So pretend I have a pocket square. So you're also designing in context, right, so maybe this is not the the look that I would be wearing, necessarily, with this, but this what we're working with today. I do like this as a pocket square, in my imaginary pocket, We've got two more minutes, Is there more with prototyping and testing that you could do? I don't actually know what I look like...
That might be a good thing.
Well, it's colorful.
If you wanted lots of colors, then you got it. If we wanted just some, then we're a little off.
It is still the tallest possible tower. If we mixed it with the cell phone thing, I don't know if it would stay on top of my head. It'd be like the cell phone Carmen Miranda, perhaps. So I think we've reached time for this group as well. But I really like how you guys asked me about my needs, we opened it up, you got me involved, which was the point of this low-fidelity prototyping, right? So maybe my final crown won't be made out of pipe cleaners, but we made this homage to my friend Lee-Kim and we've tested things in a very short amount of time, which is great. So thank you so much guys. Let's bring up the the last group. (audience applauds) We'll just leave this mess for the final group to play with, alright and to reveal their challenge. So your design challenge for the final group. So let's bring up the group first, Rakesh and Jose. Thank you so much guys for coming. So like I said before, you can build off of any of the things that the groups have done before or you can start from scratch. Notice there's some molding clay in here if you want to use it. This is a more open-ended challenge. So the beauty thing was in the eye of the beholder, in this case me, and they asked me about that and tested their design with me, but your challenge, you're going to do something that connects this stage or our design studio, with where the audience is. So this could be physical, it could be metaphorical, but think about what is connection and how do you connect. So that's your six minutes on this design challenge. So you can ask me anything, you can play with anything, but think about what connection even means.
So actually on that same topic, what does connection mean to you? Is it something physical, something metaphorical? Tell us a little bit.
I think it's like all of those things, right? I feel like part of the realities, for example, of making this class as a show is that there is actually a gap between me and the audience, so I'm standing a lot further from the students than I would normally would be, say, in a normal classroom environment where there aren't cameras and lights. I don't know, we can't change the fact that they have to be farther away for lighting and camera reasons, but if there's something to just remind them of me and remind me of them, maybe. To connect with them, you know. I can see them but, I don't know, maybe there's something to just help with this social distance made by this physical distance that can help remind me.
Even the constraints, I think we can probably experiment a little bit with how it could be, maybe, more like a one-way thing most of the time, but we're trying to break that.
Yeah, so it sounds like it's for presentations and trying maybe to involve the audience a little bit more in the presentation.
Allow them to be part of it from farther away?
So why don't we-- Maybe we can actually start playing with the tape and connect physically the space with tape, just like going from the table to the floor.
Let me get this out of the way so we'll have more room to work.
We can experiment with, like, colors and something like that.
So it looks like we've got about four minutes to connect and you can test different ideas here. (tape unsticking from roll)
There's literally a connection.
There's literally connection, alright. (tape unsticking from roll) I bet the crew didn't know that we were doing Holiday decorating today. What if we added these little fabric swatches...
Maybe something like name tags.
Ooh, wait, that's an interesting idea Rakesh. You said name tags. So could we make name tags?
Yeah, we have plenty of these.
I'm helping you a little bit more than the other groups because you guys have a more abstract challenge. So maybe, everybody knows I'm Lee-Sean already, but I'm trying remember you guys' names. Well I know that you're Jose and Rakesh, but if we had trouble understanding-- Like remembering, or you guys remembering each other's names Maybe you guys could wear name tags too.
So I have an idea. Do you want to go around and get name tags for the other participants as well?
Yeah, that's what I was thinking.
So that we could all immediately connect. I can keep on adding colors and textures to this.
I like how you guys are prototyping a lot of different things at the same time, right? Because this is also part of the process, in terms of not just coming up with one solution and being tied to it and this is another reason why we do this low-fidelity prototyping. Cheap materials, they're gonna get thrown away at the end of the class or recycled for another class, but there's nothing precious about it, right? I didn't have to wait hours or days to manufacture anything, very little money has been spent, very little time has been spent, and so we already have this concept here that's very festive. We have the name tags, another way of creating connection. Alright, so tell me what's going on here in terms of the multiple colors. Is that also, like, color therapy kind of thing?
So you talked a little bit about having multiple dimensions when you talk about connections and I think in this very rough example, at least the colors could potentially cover these multiple dimensions.
Trying to come up with something concrete for something very, very abstract.
Yeah I like this as kind of like, almost like a public art piece in a way, of saying, like, we are connected somehow between the people on stage bathed in light and the people in the semi-darkness over there. So what are you prototyping here?
A presentation aide.
If this were a tablet it would probably be more effective, given the distance, but...
Nice! So this is actually a prototype version of the monitor that I'm seeing off-camera here, so that's another way of making connections. So you've interpreted this in different ways through physical objects. We've got a couple more minutes. What would you do in this process? Some things here.. In a full design process you'd probably get my feedback.
So we've covered a little bit, kind of like the physical thing, the individuals with the name tags, what other layers of connections can you think about or are interesting for you to explore in your life?
And also, do these connections work?
I like this as an art piece because it physically connects us, as well as the name tags. I wonder if there's something in the last minute that could be more back and forth, right? So I can kind of read the name tags already, but is there a way to maybe pass messages back and forth? I think that could be an interesting form of communication.
Oh, yeah, absolutely.
I wonder how we could do that with these materials.
Could we give each one a post-it note with colors?
Or maybe there could be a messenger service where they can pass notes and, I don't know, it's sort of like a subway for notes and materials between me and the audience and Drew and the crew. So maybe that's a way to prototype this too. Obviously we're not gonna engineer a monorail here. But this is our monorail and it's just going back and forth and Jose is like the human monorail operator bringing these messages back and forth. Alright, so looks like we have a lot of cool ideas that you've prototyped in the last six minutes. So thanks so much guys. Give these guys a round of applause 'cause they really had the most difficult of the design challenges and what made it difficult? Any thoughts?
The many ways you could kind of interpret the challenge.
Yeah, so as Carlos said, there's many ways to interpret it, it was open-ended but I think, besides being the third challenge, where everyone was sort of opening up a little bit and more comfortable with doing ridiculous things with craft materials but it opened up our creativity, right? So everything from just having physical name tags to building this monorail-public-art-piece type thing. But we were re-interpreting this in different ways, and so we've gone through the entire design thinking process in a super-compressed amount of time, right? The groups each asked me about-- They wanted to understand more about me, my needs, my preferences. They came up with different ideas rapidly and then they prototyped them and they tested them in a very short period of time. But an important part of the third challenge and how questions like this are best suited for design thinking or how design thinking is best suited for questions like this is something called the parable of the bridge. That is the story of, okay, if I ask to build a connection between point A and point B, like I did for group three, you might build a bridge if you're crossing a pond and you might ask questions about what kind of bridge you want to build based on the materials that you have, the site that you're in. Your bridge might look like this instead if you are going through the jungle canopy rather than just over this little pond in the Central Park in New York City, right? But you're still building a bridge. The first challenge of building this tower thing had a very specific outcome, you knew what it was and this is something that clients are used to. They'll say, "Build us a website that does A, B and C," but they've already assumed the outcome, they've assumed the result. Whereas in this case we don't know what it is, we're opening it up to a connection. It could be a bridge, it could be something else, it could be a ferry, right? Maybe in this particular community it doesn't make sense economically to build a bridge or that the bridge would disrupt the skyline and the aesthetics of things and so the ferry is better. If you're trying to make a connection to get from point A to point B for another reason your solution might be something else, right? It might be a glider instead. You're thinking about are you moving people, are you moving goods, are you transporting information? Maybe it's actually a zip line, right? So that's the point of these open-ended challenges of making a connection doesn't necessarily mean building a bridge. It's really about reframing the challenge and thinking about different solutions that are not locked into any given medium, right? It's this idea that there is no like magic app for every possible problem. It could be an app, it could be a bridge, it could be a zip line, it could be a ferry, it could be something else, right? But thinking about what that human need is and addressing it through different ways, whether it's metaphorical or physical and thinking about always the context. Eliel Saarinen, who was a Finnish American architect has this quote where he talks about designing in the next bigger context. If you're designing a chair, for example, you want to think about the table that the chair's gonna be used next to, designing that table in the context of the room, the dining room, the room in the context of the house, the house in the context of the street. And then we also have to think about the social context. What kind of family is using this chair and table set? What do they need? What are their habits? So whenever we're designing something we want to understand that physical context, that social context, that cultural context and then also reframe it in different ways, right? So maybe don't need a table at all they need one of those foldable stands for eating your TV dinner at because they don't even eat dinner at the dining table. So that's the reframing the design brief. So I think we had a couple questions in the audience.
I was just thinking about the last the design problem and I was thinking about the connection, you know actually a connection in terms of relationship. Also thinking about liking this people watching this presumably online, live. Just the connection to thinking about audience. I was curious can we make a connection to the audience out there that's not even here. Those are just some thoughts that came up.
Totally, yeah, so you've reframed it again, which is great. So maybe that's coming up with some concept. So that's kind of taking the original brief and forking it in a way that could be interesting of how do we connect, not just me or this stage area and you guys in the studio audience, but with the online audience. And so there's all sorts of different possibilities there. But you see how were going between this convergent and divergent thinking like the accordion, like a blowfish where we're opening and closing and opening up new possibilities and then deciding if that's one way that we want go down or not. Yes, HD.
Hey Lee-Sean, so I had a question about this design thinking process. You mentioned earlier that once we're used to it, you can jump from one step to another step as needed. Can you give an example how you skip around?
You guys actually just gave yourselves an example of how you skipped around. One of the critiques, actually, of design thinking is that it's too straight-jacketed, right? It's like now is the discovery phase, now is the define phase, and honestly, in consulting and in structuring contracts, and in project management, you sometimes have to do that. In any design challenge that's lasting more than the six minutes that you guys had, it's sometimes hopeful, often helpful, in fact, to say, like, we're gonna do discovery phase of six weeks, and a definition phase of two weeks as a way of planning time and figuring out how much you're gonna charge so that's totally understandable in terms of client expectations of what they're gonna get. But the whole point of this is thinking about what is the dominant activity at any given time. So in those six minutes that you guys were up here, we didn't subdivide the time, I wasn't micromanaging your time of, okay, you have 30 seconds to discover my needs and then move to define. It was kind of this iterative process where you are naturally moving between these states at the same time, even in this microcosm of the six minute design challenge. Does that make sense?
So it sounds like what you're saying is we're iterating through that cycle kind of fluidly.
Yeah, you're iterating through the cycle fluidly. So these are all, to use a nerd analogy, these are all functions that you can run, as an individual or as a group, but these functions can run concurrently, right? So you're discovering something while you're prototyping it, and especially-- And that's why we do the time compression as a demo, A: because it's fun and it looks cool, but it forces you to think about how you're doing two or more of the things at the same time. You're discovering more about me by putting this crown on my head and you're also testing it at the same time while, say, redefining what beauty means or what connection means.
I have a question.
So the process is, we talked about in terms of design so if we would extend the analogy of the bridge or the building we would say that you could go through these processes and you'd get to a prototyping stage in the design, like as an architect you're coming up with the concept of what the building is going to look like, how it's going to function, meeting user needs, and you go through all of these all the stages. At what point and to what degree does the design thinking process bleed over into the actual building of, okay, we have to commit to, we're really gonna go build something now. How does that change happen? How does that transition happen? How does design thinking, or does it, go into that stage?
Once you've gotten to a prototype and a test of something and then there's some sort of decision made, right? Because if you're actually shipping anything to market whether it's a service or a physical thing like a building, you just have to make some decisions and lock it down so you can deliver. So at that point, you've got some sort of exit velocity from this, right? There might be small tweaks, like once you get to be building maybe the original architect specs don't actually work in real life, like the tile just really doesn't work and then you can make small tweaks to it, but at a certain point, once you done enough testing or enough loops of that, it's really understanding when it's ready to go out to market and then for stuff like software as a service works more where it's more iterative. Obviously, there's a lot of parallels with stuff like Lean, which is not my specialty at all, but it's similar in terms of thinking about Lean and Agile methodologies of everything is circular and you're making these improvements over time, just like you would with this design thinking stuff. Thank so much, so it looks like we have time maybe for a story and we're gonna tell more stories in the next segment, but really focusing on this idea of defining and reframing a problem 'cause I think that's the part where it sounds simple and easy to think about, but oftentimes we get stuck in some organizational silo or solutionism. So one story is a case study from Sydney, Australia and there is an entertainment district there called Kings Cross, probably named after Kings Cross of London and this is a story I got from Kees Dorst, who is an Australian design academic, or he's Dutch living in Australia, working in Australia, and he writes about how in this area of Sydney in Kings Cross, as an entertainment district with nightlife, there was a lot of these quality-of-life small crimes that were happening like public urination, people would get into fights, there'd be people drunk on the streets because the bars would close and then people wait in line to go to the clubs. And there was really nothing else to do, right? There weren't other options in terms of amenities or food trucks and it was a little isolated from public transit so people were kinda stuck there if they were gonna to go out to the club. Now, the municipal response to these problems started out as thinking about existing solutions, so they treated it as like a policing problem, right? Okay, there's a problem here we'll just add more police and we'll ticket people if they're gonna be urinating on the streets, if they're gonna be get into fights and that certainly valid as enforcement, but it doesn't necessarily change the social behaviors and the effects of it's still an entertainment district, it's still mostly young people, you know, with alcohol involved in the mix. And all of that sort of thing. So you haven't necessarily solved the problem, you've just addressed it in some way that you know. When Kees Dorst and his design team came in, they reframed the problem from a policing problem narrowly to a problem that was broader, right? They knew that they wanted to decrease some of these crime things, but rather than treating the context as a problem in itself, they treated as a feature rather than a bug and they change their mindset to think as festival organizers in terms of music festivals and things like that. There's people here drinking, there's people partying all the time in these festivals, but there's other things to do, so they brought in things like, you know, better way finding and signage so people could get to transit if they needed to. They brought in street vendors that could sell food and do other things while people were making this transition from the bars to waiting for the clubs to open so that there was things for people to do to distract them. They put in public toilets and so rather than thinking about this as these are behavioral problems and we're just going to put policing towards it, they changed the norms of, okay, this isn't just an entertainment district, this is more like a festival atmosphere and then they were able to bring down some of these petty crime issues just by reframing the problem. So it's not just about problem-solving, in terms of design thinking, and it's not just in terms of implementing solutions, it's about reframing the problem. So this is a very critical phase to think about there.