Communication Planning (with Guest Karen Halstead)
With great pleasure that I introduce someone that I've known for over twenty years, which is crazy, this is my dear friend karen, and we actually worked at an ad agency in new york when we were just babies that's, right? We were really infants eight year, eight or nine on, and we've stayed in touch, and so I think that one thing that I just want to talk about is that a lot of the people that have been on the show have been instrumental in my career and been very supportive, and they're kind of like my core team. So karen, I've had great respect for her she's worked at huge agencies since that time doesn't media plans for microsoft. When I went to virgin america, the person that I trusted with my media budget was carrying, so she did all of my media planning. She figured out what we should do with all of the dollars on we've had a great relationship over time. One quick story that I want to share mainly for tracy's benefit is I think that one of the reasons that we bonded so much I ment...
ioned that I was a documentary filmmaker, I don't know if you remember this, but remember you stayed in my apartment in january? Well. So at one point she stayed in my apartment I don't know where I was but you were staying in my apartment and I was working on a film that was all about young breast cancer survivors and I came back and you had watched the film yet and it was this very emotional connection for us and so I think from that point forward we've always been close yeah yeah all right well there you go there's the secrets out so you know, build relationships with people that you admire and that you respect and that you share common values with and you're gonna have better work results too so we've had lots of fun over the years and a lot of success so we're going to talk about communication planning she's the best in the business but before we begin I just want to talk briefly about resource is again I think there's fifty or sixty resource is in the book we didn't have time to talk about all of them we put a couple of up here at age and adweek the industry trades obviously you can get tons of information out of them but we also have a couple other things if you want to tell us about your in the place that I always start is google google has a lot of possibilities and not just from googling something but there's a site in there on google called think with google dot com and for almost any category or industry, they have a bunch of insights on how people buy products and services where they're turning to for advice and information and it's free so I love that one great great okay, so one this one because karen has a great presentation sheas with an ad agency called eleven now that still manages virgin america's media I'm actually going to give her the empowered clinger's so that she can run her own clicker and I'm gonna let you take it away great thank you and yeah, so I'll just tell you a bit about eleven were ah boutique agency in san francisco we were founded in nineteen ninety nine there are a lot of reasons why we're called eleven one is that there were eleven employees when we started, but also because the founders were obsessed with spinal tap, so there are a lot of references to spinal tap in the agencies, some of which I get and some of which I don't, but we all get a copy of the dvd when we joined that's a culture and brand building right, right that's right on and we still work with virgin america it's one of our founding clients for the most part we've been working with them since since the beginning of the airline almost and having a lot of fun, so we'll give some examples of that later um I'm going to talk about paid media and paid communications and why they're so important um and why it's important to think about that as a component of your marketing mix and it doesn't really matter if you have a billion dollars to spend like microsoft or fifty dollars to spend you really have to think about the strategy behind everything that you do um and that's because everything matters everything communicates there's that old classic expression for marshall mcluhan the medium is the message I'm sure you've all heard that and I think the medium is part of the message the message is part of message too but where you put your advertising and marketing dollars says something about your brand and so you really have to think about it you know do you want to show up in jersey shore maybe that's right maybe that's not right you know is it sixty minutes that's more relevant or is that too serious for your brand you have I mean those air television examples but you can apply that to almost any media type that you have on dh what we do is we think a lot about the purchase process er and how people are thinking about buying a product or service or kind of entering into a relationship with your brand and for many, many years probably when we started when we were eight um we uh we used to talk about a purchase funnel and my philosophy is that it's time to hang up that funnel I think it's it feels too linear and it ends at this point and I heard you talk a little bit about the life the life cycle of a customer and this funnel doesn't really represent that it assumes that as soon as someone makes a purchase we're done with you and we all know that that's not the right way to think about things that that customer is probably the most powerful thing that you could probably have and so what we do is we look at it as let's see if this builds on there we go isn't that gorgeous um it's a loop you know the purchase is one component of it and we pay justus much intent attention to the person that just purchased your product as we do to someone who's new in the door we might communicate to them differently but we really pay attention to that and there are different triggers that can get someone into this process. And so now with you know, the digital capabilities that we have we can really identify what's going to bring someone in and help them become a lifetime customer and also tell all of their friends to become customers because that's that's the most efficient kind of marketing that you can do and you know, I think I heard you say that today is a lot of digital very interactive slides very advanced, very nice I had I had help with that, but digital really feels the loop it's not the only way to communicate, but all of the digital technologies and capabilities that we have can help us identify different people at these phases, so we isolate them and we identify when we need to reach someone and just help them understand who we are, what we d'oh or if we're trying to get them to become an advocate, advocate for us and build loyalty, maybe give us an example, karen of a brand or maybe one of our we've got a yoga site, we've got a magazine, we've got breast cancer calendar, where would we bring these into the loop? How would we think about the loop? So I think let's, try the yoga it's, a yoga, teaching a situation so that's, a very narrow group of people, and so you might. We don't care about casting than that very wide you care about this very narrow group of people that might be inspired, tio become a teacher and are probably practicing yoga currently, and so we want to we might want to create awareness with that group, but we want to reach them at this moment when maybe they want to make a change in their life and they want to become a yoga teacher add that to their portfolio of things that they dio so thinking about when that trigger might be that might persuade them to think about it that very particular moment it's kind of an interesting thing to think about um and you can think about that for any product or service is just what is that trigger that's going to make someone think like, oh my gosh, I'm going to talk about cough syrup later but you know I have a cough I need cough syrup or I want to make a change in my life or I want to support a cause that's important to me and this is a way I can do it and so identifying that trigger is a critical something probably a lot of health things right after the first of the year, of course we have people that are getting back into health after babies people are trying to x more help, but there's probably things that you can think of in the life cycle, right and also places and events. Yeah, one of the things that we've identified over time is at back to school is kind of an interesting trigger it's kind of like a different new year for parents um their kids air out of their house and back into school and and the parents are thinking about what they need to do to get back on track for all the things that they didn't do over the summer so there's all sorts of new triggers that are happening during the year and you just have to think about the ones that are relevant to you. Um this is kind of an interesting topic this is a guy that said you know the limit to consuming media asleep it used to be I'll take my water away no no water for you um you know, I think about my own behavior and this is a little bit embarrassing but I keep my mobile phone right next to my bed it's probably the last thing I look at before I go to sleep and the first thing I look at uh when I wake up well, how many that will do that? Yeah, we all private all of us, right? Yeah. So amen to those of you that don't but it's you know, media is encroaching on every kind of except for that slight moment where maybe some of us are dreaming about our media choices but it really is encroaching on all that time. So it's really taking up a lot of time with people's life and I have a few charts in here not too many almost twelve hours a day are spent using some form of media and so if you add let's say seven hours of working and let's say seven hours of sleeping uh that is twenty six hours so more than you know there's there's something going on there there's more time in the day people are using media at work they're multitasking um but so it's an interesting thing that actually media usage is going up and it's not all digital some of it is still traditional television for example I just read an article in wired on the way here that because there's so much competition with new networks the programming is getting better and people are watching more so tv usage is actually up um and so that's an interesting thing to think about and all of that makes it very complicated for people like us tio figure out where to market to people and again it really doesn't matter how much money you have to spend but you have to think about the approach that you're going to take oh yes yeah mobile is it pretty small sliver but so much of the media seems like it is mobile so it seems like those lines being blurred people watching the tournament now on their iphone instead of on tv. So how does that just completely skew all your graphs and your analysis? So yeah, I think there's a follow and with like active tv so when you're watching you they show you the hashtag so you can tweet about it while you're watching the show like that's I feel like that's become really popular as well? Yes, I mean, I think part so to your first question, part of it is how people are understanding the question, and so I think this might have been a media consumption on mobile devices, so actually watching tv, I'm not counting. It probably isn't count. Facebook is a medium, but we all know that it is. And the other huge trend that's going on is we used to talk about to screen viewing and now it's three screen viewing and even more. And there are lots of capability abilities that are allowing you to leverage that that didn't exist before so many marketers are taking advantage of that, but a lot are still kind of quizzical and not sure what it all means. So it's the forward thinking ones that are really kind of winning, I guess in that in that area, but you're right. I mean it all it's a big blur, it's a huge blur. Uh, yeah, it's exciting because they're seen a mystery and everything. Um, so a lot of this is a little bit of a tutorial about the basic steps that we take, um and again some of these same very top level, but there, just to give you a sense of the structure of how we do things and the first thing so we're going to go through all all of these steps but the objectives is a critical part when are you trying to dio what what do you want to solve? Um we dio have clients not it's not currently some that we used to have that shall marine nameless to say I want awareness consideration purchase intent and purchase and loyalty and so it's like ok, yes I want a million dollars and he ought to but you know you have to you have to prioritize what you're looking for and what's the most important of that if you could only have one what would you pick and then we kind of optimize the program for that and you know the goal is and this is one of those sentences that you see a lot of media conversations it's reaching the right since customer meaningfully with the right message at the right time at the right place and I think we had a lot of success with that on virgin america will continue to do so who said that quote originally because it's one everybody else's yeah maybe david ogilvy one probably issue yeah you hear it right message right time right place in here that a lot um and so we we spent a lot of time thinking about that um the next one is budgeting and for many media planners they'll think about this kind of last or lower on or you know, when clients coming to us, my first question is how much money do you have or how much money do you think you have? Because it does put a frame on what you think is possible um do you want to advertise on the super bowl? You know, probably not most being almost client customers camp, but it really does put a frame on how much and again you I love when clients have little budgets because you have to be so resourceful and clever, you know otherwise, you know, I did work with a large software manufacturer that's not too far from here and, you know, they had a billion dollars let's see easy, I mean, it's complicated, but it's easy, that's just you have more flexibility, so when you don't have that it's it's, fun, tio be resourceful, very transparent about the fact that at virgin because our budget was small, based on the competition that we were forced to use social and partnerships because we didn't have any other levers, and so people thought while they were so brilliant and innovative and it was and it was because we had small budget, so we had to be scrappy and so I think a lot of times people say, oh gosh, I've got a lack of a budget and what I'm gonna do but if you look for the right partnerships, and if you look for that one great thing, and if you do things better and you innovate, you can you can do amazing things with small budgets and bring back that idea that we saw yesterday, the spanx visual, the before and after visual. That was like a very simple concept that you could put out through social media. So don't let the budget question overwhelm you. Let it motivate you to do things better and differently, right? It's very gratifying to spend a little bit of money and get a big result. It's probably the most gratifying thing in this in this business. Um, you know, we think about budgeting based on big clients will think about a percentage of revenue that they're looking for, you know, or, you know, adds it's a percentage of revenue. There's a standard number for every category. So they think about it that way. I think for smaller clients, they need to think about it more on a task basis or demand basis. Like how how many things do I want to sell? How many calendars? So I want to sell how many people do I want to join my practice and and learned to teach yoga with me, um do I have an opening day and, you know, my opening my store on x day, and I need to people get this many people in the door that's, more of a relevant way to look at budgets for smaller clients, but we look at all of them, and we really think about it, and so we can help clients understand how much they have to spend, and sometimes we say it spend let's, they're always surprised the next day, everybody ever spend less, and I don't I don't think that way probably didn't tell you that, but yeah, we have said, or sometimes advertising is not the solution and, you know, a za marketing agency advertising is one of the things that we do, but it's not the only thing. So again, clients get a little bit surprised within they trust you a little bit more when, you know, you realize that, you know, you're just trying to fulfill their business objective, you're trying to do what they need to dio and unit one common on that, um, I really agree strongly with that, that sometimes advertising isn't the solution, and it goes back to what we were talking about this morning about product trance parents and that your product in your service is your advertising, because everything is transparent now, and consumers are tweeting and posting and so sometimes you may say, well, should I invest you know, x number of dollars into a product enhancement or should I spend the advertising and I do think that putting your heart and soul in in the product and the service first is really, really the most important thing that's from a brand standpoint okay, target audience um this is an interesting one because again some of those clients that I mentioned that we don't have any more will say I want to reach everybody everybody is my target audience but really our biggest recommendations to get narrow who specifically do you think it's going to be relevant for your product and service? Don't worry about the rest if you optimize or think about a program that's going to inspire that a very narrow group of people to buy your product or service that's great um and you know we have a lot of research tools available to us some of them are in the resource is section here there's a lot of interesting information that you can find out that might help you inspire you to do something different. So we look at even people who fly virgin america what kind of computer they likely to use? What car did they drive? You know, do they own a car? Uh do they are they left leaning or right leaning and we may not put that in our our advertising, your messaging, but it just helps paint a picture of this person, and you can really identify who you're trying to talk to, um and look beyond the category. I think I just mentioned this it's easy and when companies aaron a category they think, oh, I'm in the airline industry, so I must do everything that the airline industry does, and I think what was brilliant about virgin america's they did the opposite of that. They really thought about what consumers wanted and what people wanted, and so they looked outside of the category to help help build their business. Yes, it's wondering if I could ask you a question on this because I know I see a lot with our credit live audience that defining who is my target audience is one of those biggest questions. Do you have some ideas or exercises that people might be able to go through to think about defining that? Sure, you know, and there are lots of pieces of free research out there again. Some of them are in the resource is section you can, uh, kind of google the category and look for information on online, but also it might be interesting, delicate social posts from your customers or look at their lives, you know, pick a few because statistically reliable sample of the people that are followers of you or, um, fans of yours on facebook and just look at what their lives are like and try to paint a picture of what they're like, so that won't be a scientific, but it will give you a good sense and a good guide. Well, I like that night I would take it even a little bit further where you do a day in the life where you try to chart out my typical customer. What would they be doing in the morning? What would they be eating? Where would they be driving? What would they be listening to and actually point paint out the picture of them? Because then we have that visualization, I think it's easier to start kind of defining and some people will create again, like a board where they actually named the person. Well, we've got sally, and we've got joe, and here is what you know, they look like, and this is what they're typical ages and what they'd be driving and that kind of things. So if you make that kind of hype but that a goal, I think you could make things really? Yeah, I think visualization is key, I agree this is ah. Actually, the slide used to have alec baldwin and zach effort on it, but for clearance purposes, I had to take him out. Uh, these this is a twenty five year old man on the left and a fifty four year old man on the right and a classic demographic by for media is twenty five to fifty four year olds, but you can even just look at the two of them, even though they're not zac effron and alec baldwin. And you could understand that there are different kinds of people. They probably have different motivations there, doing different things during the day and at night. And so the standard place to start is, what age are they? But you really have to again visualize their life and think about it and see what else is underlying that can really help you. Uh, geography is another. You know, if you have a local business it's kind of obvious what's going to happen on who you want to talk to. But for some clients, it's, not as is obvious, or maybe there's, a potential beyond your geographic region that you can really think about. And so we spend a lot of time thinking, thinking about what markets to advertise in, um with we use virgin america a lot here is an example it's it's pretty obvious where we need to advertise for them that's where the rats are we just did a project for a big apparel brand it's cold weather apparel brand and that's not as clear so yes you go where the snow is but maybe there's other opportunities out there you really have to think about it so we look at you know, distribution we look at share trends what what's happening in your category is there something that's some brand that's doing very well that has uncovered some opportunity that's a computer of yours and what can we learn about that? Uh but this is a way to kind of reduce the amount of money that you have to spend uh and really get power out of it. So we think a lot about geography um and you know one question for you on that. Um we've been talking a lot about databases and customer less lists any value to looking at kind of zip codes in your existing beta database to see information absolutely. We work with um it may or may not be relevant, but we work with brands that are sold at supermarkets and we look at a one two three mile radius around each of those supermarkets and we do it by zip code and then in some cases were using billboards and we looked literally just within that three mile radius or with mobile mobile it's I'll talk about geo fencing later on, but geo fencing is the new hot thing and so you can do that also so absolutely it's a very powerful tool yeah, yeah, um timing we talked a little bit about timing triggers but you know, I'll mention it again, you know, do you want to zig or zag with product behavior for many years? The television schedule kind of drove advertising you know, the new season started in september and the finale is were in may and then this was many years ago, but when survivor came around it launched in august and everybody was really surprised that a tv show would launch in august, which is very weird and that was a zag in the tv world that was a zag strategy, and sometimes that can be very powerful when you're surprising someone with a message that they're not expecting to see at that particular time uh, you know, you also have to think about real life behavior and here's I think I mentioned I was going talk about cough syrup, you know, I'm hype a contract, so I always have cough syrup in the house, but most people think about it when they have a cough and they run right out to the store and buy it ah cruising and we did some work in the cruise industry recently people by cruises a year in advance I'm not one of those people but people by cruises a year in advance and so you need if you're marketing cruz related things or a cruise you need to be there a year in advance before this person is going to book that trip so timing of when people are thinking about something and then we pick when people are using something can be very powerful for you and it's going to vary but based on your businesses you know we you know, we talked we talked about booking windows for travel they're really changing used to be people bought, you know, six months in advance and it's really gotten shorter and shorter and shorter goals and measurement I might skip over some of this this is the the kind of super sci fi stuff but we talk a lot about reach of your target audience and how many times you need to reach them it is kind of an interesting exercise to think about to some degree I think I'm flip to this chart here you know frequency is something we talk about, you know, if you are an established brand you don't need to advertise this much if you're not as established in the marketplace you you need to talk to people more frequently depending on the purchase cycle you know, I think people buy cars on average every six to eight years so you have to think about that um I think I read that from the time a person decides to buy a car to the time they buy a car the average is about twelve weeks and so you're probably if you've been in that market recently you're like, wow, I've seen so many car ads all of a sudden part of is that you're just it's triggered in your mind to look for those things but also they've recognized what those patterns are and so they're it's kind of intentional they're figuring out a way to do that so thinking about timing and frequency is kind of is it an interesting component? I guess I have two years to go until I buy your car I'm on a thirteen year cycle uh this is the kind of the meat of media and different media types I'll get into that depending on how much money you have to spend it's important to start with one and do a really good job before you try to do eight or nine especially when production dollars get involved or you gonna have to spend to make something try to do one really well for clients that have money to do more than one, you get an incremental benefit from doing that, but I think when you're starting out and don't even worry about that it's not it's not important, and there are different ways you can use each media type in their very affordable ways of using all of them. So I'm going to give you some of those ways, um, but think about how people use each medium and you're right, it is a blur. It is a huge blur about how all this stuff is happening hears this might be my last chart. This is ad spending versus ad spending in the marketplace versus time spent with the media, and I just want to kind of highlight the stuff that's happening on the right because on the left it seems like the ad industry and consumers are kind of in sync with what's going on. But on the left hand side, you can see that people are spending twelve percent of their media time with mobile, but only two percent of the advertising dollars are going there. So there's a big gap you can bet people are trying to fill that that industry isn't really matured yet, but on the right hand side is kind of where conservative advertisers air happening, where five percent of time is spent with print. But twenty one percent of the advertising budgets are are there so that's changing someone has a question? Are you the magazines? Are you the magazine? You know where I can get that sharks that needs to go my media get this is because we're digital magazine were all online so I'd love to show because a lot of the advertisers that I talked to about selling ads to there they invested into the print magazines when I keep trying to tell them you know, digital's where you where the market's going on this so this is from a marketer and if you go teo there's a paid version of the marketer but they have a brazilian charts and I'm sure this one is available for free online great ahs well as historical patterns but it's it's an interesting one that you know, people are holding on advertisers are holding on to the thing that they know in love and magazines are wonderful um, but people aren't using them as much strengths by medium, so I'm just going to give you some little tips about different things and then we can move on um, you know there's the super bowl way of using television, but now you congee offense kind of like you congee offense mobile so you could buy a very local cable zone around that zip code where your customers are or if you know that there's a super cool hip neighborhood that is going to you know is the one that has all of your possible clients and it you could just advertise around that. So, yeah, I think I think it might have been clear from context, but can you explain geo fencing for people you know, through cookies and and other digital technologies? We can, our location based services on mobile, we can identify where someone is, and then if they're in a in a proximity to a starbucks or to this studio, we conserve them a different kind of an ad, or if we don't care about anybody that's outside of this radius, we don't pay for any of those people. Um, and you could do that with pretty much any media type. It's is more prevalent in the digital channels, but in television it's possible to, and we're getting down to almost cookie level activity with television, which is a little creepy, but pretty exciting for advertisers. It's not exactly a cookie, its set top data, uh, it's set top data so they know what your zip code is, and they're, um, projecting what kind of person you might be based on where you live. So, um, we were given an example. If you live in a certain zip code, you're probably more likely to have a dog than a cat, so maybe dog food manufacturers want to serve you an ad. And in a few sides, I'll show you that all state actually did something very interesting where they only sent ads to people that rented their homes versus bought their homes because they were selling renter's insurance. And so this was never possible before you bought one ad and it went to everybody. And now you could say, I just want people who are likely to have a dog that are venting their house, and you can just send tv ads to them. So if you have video assets that you think are worthy of that kind of, um, placement, you can do that, um, it's coming back to big data that there's just more information that's stored on us. And then also when we talked about this morning, the n f c f c chips in our phones that are doing localization and contextual ization that that information is now being used by the advertisers? Absolutely are things like xbox and stuff like that probably have, in effect, uc's. I don't I don't even have television, but I watched a ton of tv through my xbox, so you know, things like that could probably contribute to ur cord cutter that's what we call you a record cutter uh, yes, so who netflix, you know? Amazon tv xbox has advertising opportunities on their channels and they know from the avatar if you're playing the games or not that you create an avatar we know a lot about you from the avatars that you create to log into the system so we can we can still reach you with video even though you don't watch regular take with this narrowing down mohr by not only zip code but a gin location there's a ton of um different people out there that are screaming about privacy because they feel as though their privacy is being approached I for one think that if I have to look at an advertisement might as well make it custom to me so that I find a little bit more interesting rather than looking at a diaper advertisement stuff like still like that do you is that in your industry are you finding a lot of people pushing the whole pipe privacy issue we're back don't worry about that we're very careful um it it could it can get very creepy there's a lot of data out there you could buy a lot of data on top of your existing database and know a lot about the people that are using your product or service or have looked at your product or service but we have to be very careful and there are third parties that are actually you might have even seen among digital ads there's one called ad choices it's a little triangle and if we're re targeting you or if we know something about you that's why you're seeing that ad you can you can click on the triangle say why am I seeing this ad and it will explain what we're doing I think some clients want to be very clear and obvious about what they're doing I have one story on that you know, I was given one of those clear cards the pass is where you can go through the airport quickly because I had helped them with some projects and so when I went to sign up for it there was a database to prove my identity right? So a question pops up on the screen and you had to give the right answer to prove that I was myself but the question it was it was basically which one of these people is somebody that you know and it was a list of people and I'm looking at it and it was my sister's ex husband from like, you know, five years ago shows up on the list but but the point is is that there are databases and then the next question was I lived in portland, oregon for like one month of my life which city had you lived in? I was like, oh my god, how did they know that I lived in portland, oregon when I was twenty three years old but that data is just it's available and you know, people have access to it yeah, and I think the older people are the more freaked out they are about it, the younger generations air more accepting of that, I think social media has a lot to do with that, but there's a line there's a line and, you know, I don't know if it was you that was asking the moral question earlier in the email section, but there's a moral line that you shouldn't cross, you know, and we don't yes, credit card data, if if that is tractor collected, I know online purchases are but your bank I just it just occurred to me has so much information about where you spend your money, you know, there are some ways you can overlay credit card data, and in any of these cases were not getting down to it's porter, gail and she lives on this street. We're getting to it in a broad sense of their this many people that fit that criteria so we never actually know the name of the person, but you can buy some credit card and well, and on that when I could just add that because I worked on the credit card business at virgin, so if we wanted data like let's say we wanted flyers, the credit card company would say we'll give you a list of flyers, but we won't tell you who they flew with so they wouldn't give us the identifying characteristics what they'd help us target flyers because they also wanted to protect the relationships with other airlines but so once you're in as a marketer, you khun certainly start working with them to get access to that data in a semi confidential way yeah, yeah, it can get very creepy a uh let's see, there we go. That's a little radio radio is kind of an overlooked media type, but actually the usage is pretty strong and it's uh, pretty stable over the years. Um, you know, some people don't listen to traditional terrestrial radio as we call it, they listen to satellite radio, other ipods or whatever, but there's lots of ways you can use the media type to reach people you know for large clients, we use every kind of genre from hip hop too tough forty two sports to news, but if you know that your your customers air probably loyal to one kind of music genre do that um traffic radio, their little ten second spot sponsorships, they're super cheap, you don't have to produce them, you just hand them a script and they and they run and they run with incredible frequency so there's lots of affordable ways to do that yeah, I know. I've taken the microphone a lot of suspicion, but I just wanted to give if there's any nonprofit people out there that's actually, my background is, is I do pr before the magazine, I did pr for nonprofits. And so something that if there's any nonprofit people out there a tip is, um that each radio station television station is required by law to provide psa is so many hours of essays, and they always have hours available because no one's using him so it's a good way to get free advertising on radio and television and radio's obviously easier because you could just do it at home and it's not something that you need a big production for, but it's worked for me several times, and it's helped fill the house for an event or something that I've done gray a wonderful opportunity. Um, out of home that's a little billboard, we talked a little bit about geo fencing, but again, we have actual maps of where all of these billboards are bus shelters. And so if your store is on one corner, we know where the nearest billboard is, and you could buy just that one. If you want, you can buy one hundred of them if you want to, but you can just buy that one, and now digital has has joined the out of home network so a lot of the bus shelters or digital a lot of the ability that we call them bulletins or billboards or digital so you don't have to actually produce a printed thing you could just upload it send it a lot more affordable um that's a little newspaper newspapers are declining in circulation it's a fact I find it pretty sad you know, I was just in new orleans and they don't have the newspaper anymore so I think they're one of the cities that doesn't even have one right? Yeah there are some that are holding on strong uh one of my favorites in new york times new york times sunday specifically there's still a very strong readership so some of them are going away um but they're still viable media types of depending on what you're trying to dio just have to think about it carefully you want to use it and magazines magazines there still there are very passionate audiences that are very passionate about certain printed digital magazines but also printed magazines aa lot of them are moving into the tablet space and that's a wonderful opportunity for marketers but some some people like to hold on to one I always like one on an airplane I can't help it um you know and so there are a bunch of audiences that still use magazines so the good news is that the industry is saying that the medium is dead so the prices are coming down so it's a good negotiating tool for us because readership is still up and costs are going down um let's see oh this is ahh digital banners are kind of a crazy marketplace the average person see seventeen hundred banners among there were five trillion banner served last year so but it's still a very powerful tool we don't look at it in terms of click through eight anymore that's just not important to us anymore and we do count revenue from that and we think that's important but really we're just looking at it as someone who's viewing it and seeing engaging so we can use it as kind of a mini billboard in some respects but in a digital space and you could buy them very affordably you don't have to have a lot of money by their you know, a small quantity mobile we talked about this this this kind of nascent the advertising options on a mobile platform really haven't hit yet I mean if you've seen them there the teeniest tiniest billboards you've ever seen little tiny banners and sometimes they work I think you know when any new medium starts click through rates are through the roof because you like what's that I want to see what's happening but I that's my personal opinion that the mobile space for advertising hasn't really hit it hit yet um it will believe me um but s so that's why you know the ad dollars aren't going there when they started I add on apple was an enormous by in you had to spend I think a million dollars to do it and none of us were really willing to do that so those numbers came down and now the entry point is a lot lower but we're still waiting a little bit um and then search I think if I could persuade you to use any media type as a small business start with search please it's just a really you know it's not it's the least sexy I guess you could say of the media types but it's the most powerful and you can see results right away ah and there's lots you can do with your website and and watch what happened so I'll talk a little bit about that and second to ah this is ah version of an ad I actually am a dinosaur in the industry and I bought one of the first banner ads that was ever allowed. It was on a web site called hot wired dot com this was the at and t version and I bought one for ah audio brand called gbl but at the time was seventy eight percent click through seventy eight percent and now it's point one percent so um it just goes to show and again was this what's that what you that was nineteen, ninety four or five nineteen ninety four five it was a wired magazine had a web site called hot wired and I remember the rep came in and said we have this thing I think was forty five thousand dollars about we don't even know what we're buying like that sounds really cool okay, I owe you ah and you know you can look at what's happened um but and I'll talk to you about some of the possibilities of what's happening, but we really don't look as much click through we look at something called few through so it's someone who saw an ad and then later on in life you know, over some period of time did something and they've been exposed to that ad there are some clients is still kind of obsess over click through rates, but we try to tell them a thing about engagement um one thing that's happening in our industries that I think robots will take over uh uh there's something called programmatic buying, which is basically it's kind of the set it and forget it well, I think adam was talking about said and forget it, but you can literally have a computer by and sell inventory for you and you know, our philosophy is some component of that is really interesting um and good and powerful and cheap and drives results, but you really need to have humans looking at what you're doing and I say that for job protection but also because I think it's important to think strategically about what you do is opposed to just letting go I want to add one common on this so it can be a really cost effective way to get exposure if you have a defined target audience and the reason is when you're talking about all the growth of the web, I don't know the numbers of the pages, but if you think about when that first banner was bought to now the size of the web and all the inventory there's tons arraignment inventory and if you you know you close the door and it's gone and so people will discount last minute very, very cheaply so it's almost like a trading desk and so it can be a really effective way to get get exposure. The cost per is about fifteen times cheaper at the at minimum to do it that way and they're like porter said there's lots of inventory tons of inventory but you don't have the quality control on the locations as much ice when you're doing it by your hand that's true that's a new thing that's happening is, uh, native advertising this is kind of like advertorial this is an example from geico, where they kind of focused on customers feeling delighted so they found all these images of things that delight you there's a dog wearing a superman costume and um the perfect milk to serial ratio um and they're putting this an editorial that is kind of on the same vein it's odd for an insurance company, right very odd um and some companies have gotten into trouble for this there was one where on thie atlantic dot com they ran a native ads that ran in editorial looked like editorial but it was for scientology um and they got a lot of flak for that and they kind of pulled back from that capability is happening on twitter now to their some new rules about what you can do on twitter in terms of making product claims and just like you would have to have, you know, fda disclosure on like a food and drug administration clay should claim same thing that you can't d'oh you know, lose thirty pounds from this pill by it now like you have to have disclosures so there's a lot of things where the transparency and the rules are starting to catch up with the medium's yep, so you know it's it's an interesting thing to think about, but I think once and a media type is available, someone will try to get through some loophole, I think and then the regulation kicks in and so we're all kind of optimizing for that but it's an interesting way if you can do it right I think we had one for virgin america we did recently where it was cocktail hacks so how to put things together on virgin america to make your own cocktail er and it was an interesting one so it's you know, relevant to the it was a you know to the content was in it wasn't a typical ad from virgin america and actually got pretty good feedback well and I always say that putting a dog or a baby does help and add get netflix and viral so dot, you know, dancing babies and dogs wearing clothes that's right that's right? Our creative director would say no but yes, this true eso search I'll just stuck a little bit about this you probably know that there's two sides of it there's s e m and s ceo um but I would strongly encourage you to optimize your site for s e o make sure your stuff is visible that there are links that that it can be found because it's gonna increase your presence in inorganic organic search and then with paid search there are so many affordable ways you can do this you know, we have a search I'm one of those people that has a team of people that does this so I had to ask my expert on this topic some web sites are not optimized for mobile devices may be yours are maybe they're not. If they're not, you should be buying search, but negative opting for the mobile version of that. You don't care about mobile search as much, because when someone will go to your website, they won't have a good experience so you can take that out. You can do all that geo targeting we talked about you, khun time part um, you can target by device. Um, there's a lot of things that you khun d'oh, but you should start because the when you start this, everything kind of rises to the top, and my my experts had been aggressively in the beginning because it it gets the system kind of juice is the system, and you start being seen so it's an important component on dh. This is part of that, that question about, you know what it's your target audience doing? You can look for what people are researching or what kind of brand terms they're putting in, and you can learn a lot about what, how people are searching for your product or service. Really, when it comes to google, I know getting on that first pages golden because the viewership just plummets because not many people go to that second page, but all those surrounding advertising, maybe it's just the amount that I look at the internet but I never look at those ads I don't think I've ever clicked on one but yet I hear stories of it being successful do you give your clients doing that and being happy with the results are very happy was amazing it's very well and I have to say that if I was thinking about my mom going on google she's not going to know the difference between either she's going to she's quick so your target audience is going to be clicking and the lynx look very similar to the same age same yeah just a little bit smaller but they think that's maybe a link that they're being you pay per click so you know part of it is impressions we don't really count that part they drive incredible results especially for new customers you know, for existing customers not as much they're not going there but for new customers absolute ok, yeah so start with search please I don't work for google but um and then just you know I mentioned this before I'll go through these quickly but digital is really infiltrating all these other media types so it's not just digital on computers anymore here's that example of the addressable tv this is when all state actually just put ads in homes that were renting um and I find this fascinating because you know for years we had to buy super bowl ads or ads on every you know for everybody and I only care about half of them so now we only could pay for half of them it's kind of neat I'm just a few tactics that I think you know when you're spending any money be noticed try to do as much as you can with that investment so you know leverage it before you invested invested if it's pr worth e p r the heck out of it tell all your followers and fans if it's worth it if it's not then don't but try to get noticed this is another insurance example this is a nationwide I think this was in columbus, ohio, but they bought this big try it's a trip tik billboard, but they used the parking lot as part of it and so this is an installation it was probably very expensive, but I'm guessing that all of the pr activity that went before during and after it really paid off it's an example that I see in pretty much every media presentation um and here's that geo fencing. So again we know if you're near a starbucks this is a british example, but this is something very common so easy to do um and a very powerful way to spend less money so we work very carefully with those teams that we call paid media catalyst turned and owned activity andi all work very we worked together nicely to do that, but it doesn't make sense to think about them separately you really have to think about them all together and last but not least I think this is less but at least we need to measure success um you need to know what you're doing is working so part of it is learning what to do then it's doing it but then it's proving if it worked or not so there are some very expensive ways of doing that but there's some very easy ways of doing that. Um net promoter scores one that we've used before it's a very simple if you know it it's a very simple question on a scale of one to ten how likely are you to recommend my product or service to a friend or family member and there's a you take the nines and tens and you subtract the ones in threes and that's your net promoter score I think that's right um anyway that's a question you can ask all of your customers and it's free to some degree you look you can look at revenue but I encourage you wherever you can tio if you're going to invest money to know what it did for you as much as you can because the next time you have some money to spend you'll know what to do with it that's pretty much it I have the virgin american example if you want to go through the show I think show the couple virgin america examples and then we will take questions from the internet but I love the creative examples they're fun and the things we did together waken reminisce that's right I remember when remember when this is you know a lot of what we do for virgin america's driving revenue and this is an example of a banner um it is what we call dynamic so it's sniffs out where you are and what airport is near you on and it's a template and it puts in the right fair with right ah route s o we like we create one creative ad and it serves up all the stuff around it and so in our history before before this we had to create a thousand ads to do that but now we just create one template automatically serves and it's way more relevant and drives away more conversion on the other kind of stuff yes you have a question. So where would you see that? Where would that pop up on any website this is a traditional this is a well it's a three hundred by two fifty which is that little rectangle which is my favorite digital ban okay that exists but yeah, I think I mean the big news is is that in the past you'd have to create mechanicals and ads and now everything is just self populating and so it's a lot more efficient, some of the creative, maybe not as interesting, because it's template ized but it's, if you see something where you're like, oh, I'm in san francisco and there's a fair that's too, you know, wherever I'm going it's really for you and it's relevant? This is something we did in the very beginning where people in the beginning didn't understand that what virgin america had to offer the amenities and values are the amenities I could say the value for what you were getting, and so what we decided to do was bring the mood lighting out to a bus shelter, and I remember this very visibly we had to get the exact right pinks and purples way found remember that feeling, and we did this at ten bus shelters in san francisco and it's, a really wonderful way of kind of showing what it might be like if you were out, you know, on virgin america flight and we continue to do this. We've brought wifi to bus shelter so we could free wifi it's a lot of fun to think about it's, fun to work with the creative teams, to do these kinds of things we did, yeah, but that was when I was talking about what's the doorway into your product and we knew that a visual demonstration of the cabin was something that was an ah ha moment for us so again I encourage you to think about what's your uh huh moment for your products where people go oh, wow like that's what I want because you need to kind of back into what you are creative strategy is and the marketing strategy it worked on multiple levels it was kind of like a stunt that was a lot of fun and this is I think the last example where this was for kind of loyal customers and susan I think was improper or boston boston right um and this was a blank board and it just said dear mediocre air travel goodbye and then sincerely we put virgin america on there we let everybody just go to town on what they you know get all their aggression out on mediocre air travel it's funny because I you know, looking back that this was actually right after obama was that was elected and I remember I was all about the movement we need to create the movement so fly delis unite was my movement for the airline so but it's it's fun to let your loyal customers or anyone that wants to kind of get involved in the conversation to get involved? Yeah and there's probably some not safer presentation stuff in there don't look too carefully but it was it was a fun and you know it god blessed virgin america for letting us do it because you know there's there's a lot of potential for a craziness that's in there yeah yeah that's it I think with that thank you for that great overview what I'd love to do is open it up for questions yes thank you so much wear actually pooping wass that we could take a few questions but then we thought how cool would it be like we've done earlier today I don't mean to put you on the spot but to kind of throw out brainstorm a sample media plan for one of our when our city audiences like maybe for a posse magazine what do you what do you think about that yeah I think we need a white board back about what I was thinking tio producers get on our way go there perfect so questions yeah so first a question that was a specific about when you were talking about s e m from linda and you talked about starting off by bidding aggressively what what exactly did you mean by that and could you sort of just go into a little bit more detailed? Sure so there are multiple search engines but google's pretty much the dominant it is the dominant one their self serve models for buying key words on google um and you need to pay there's a an algorithm to identify how much you should pay per click and so when we talk about bidding you have to identify how much you want to pay per click for each of those key words and so the first place we always recommend is to start with your brand terms so even though you don't think anybody's looking or clicking on them but to actually buy your brand name and key words will give you an extra piece of space and I went to a few of your web sites and I googled a little bit and sometimes it's just blank around so um it's uh which is not a problem but if you could have extra space or or a place to talk about your product or service even with a few few words is really helps but bidding is the price you pay identifying the price you pay and google gives you tips on how to do that they give you a history of what's been paid for certain terms if they've been done before you know, I do have one funny story about that that someone when they were trying to get an interview with me actually bought my name I think we've all tangled ourselves right like you google to see what information is there and so when I went to google myself a resume came up but I thought, wow, that was really creative and so, you know, thinking about using keywords and search to make contacts and get a message and stuff in front of someone also could be really interesting because maybe you need to reach the ceo of x company and if you buy their name is aki worried and no one else's bidding on it's likely that there at some point going to search so there's just some kind of fun interesting things if you really start thinking about how to use that to your advantage another one is and we didn't talk about this before but linked in is one of my favorites for anybody who's doing b two b type marketing um we know what size of company you know if they're working for a company with under five people or a thousand people um and weaken weakened by those and it's their search capabilities on that but also just regular ads and it's a really powerful tool for business to business type stuff can you talk more about that? Because I am obsessed with linkedin and one of the possibilities yeah it's I mean there's standard banners there um you can you can buy other kinds of products or services. A lot of what they do is he's polling tools and but those polls that you see are targeted for the kind of person that you are on linked in very few people are blasting them across the entire lincoln network so all of the targeting capabilities that we have across the internet for the most part you could do on linked in but more specifically by category of industry by geo location you know if you only want to reach marketing folks you could do that it's a great business to business tool for us well and I also just want to say that on linked in right now they're putting tons of money towards the product so it's really really advancing a lot of people are using it it's very you know obviously be to be kind of tool but they also have an influencer programs so there's a lot of people writing block content there I did have a client that I'm advising and they were referenced in an article the other day and their app lis and downloaded eight thousand times after being including one article so the volume of people that are looking at linked in and actually reading articles on linked in people are very very engaged it's no longer just listings it's really content curation so find the influencers on linked in that are writing content follow them get to know them connect with them and know that there's a lot of power to what they're saying is just a potential gold mine because you imagine how much information you're putting in there and then you can just segment your ad for a certain age range certain sex certain demographic and just show those ads right there and up until a few years ago, it really they weren't performing as well and it's kind of like what mobile is now and now all of a sudden they've kind of started to hit their stride and I think we're seeing a lot of conversion and revenue from those those ads that's a great place to start instances where because I have now listed that I'm editor in chief of of a fashion magazine I have designers contact me all the time through lincoln because now they can search for me and they connect with me and say, oh, I want to be a part of this, you know, things like that yeah, so I'm going to get us ready for the media plans you can do what question? I'm gonna write down a couple of things that we should put together. I just wanted to make a quick comment that I actually follow sir richard branson on linked in because he is one of those people out there yeah, you know, all right, all right, so david graffiti is wondering where do promotions fit into communications planning the segment was heavily weighted toe advertising, but there are other forms of communication that have been touched on yet endorsements, sponsorship of events, et cetera and along the same lines gabrielle d says what's an example of a communication strategy that is not an advocate well, I think there's those are two questions that are linked um yes, all of that matters and all of that plays a role as well as the social media in the pr that you're gonna talk about tomorrow we do events and sponsorships and sometimes we call them activations for clients and I would actually when we get into this next section I think events and activations would be really powerful for you we place a value on all those things and there's a amount of money that we you should be willing to spend and you should be able to identify how much that isthe um celebrity endorsements are part of that sometimes it's a very powerful thing sometimes it's not it can be very risky it could be very fulfilling you know, if you pick the right one uh and and sports sponsorships among others or cause related sponsorships are very important on dh they do fulfill a certain level of marketing and sometimes that's all you really need. So yes there absolutely important we just didn't have time to talk about everything yeah tomorrow will do partnership social media and press let's let's go okay, all right, so you're going to come up and help me with this too, so we're going to do your magazine so I can answer some of this because we've been talking about it so I know geography you are seattle's only digital fashion magazine right? The only monthly madman magazine monthly yes, that were but part of our new I'm trying to be careful what I say to cause we're changing a lot but that's going to change so we're going to be a regional magazine. So through doing the last three months, I've learned that fashion is so different in each city across the country that when the way we dress here in seattle you would never dress the same in san francisco and so we're going to launch in other cities slowly very slowly over time and focus on fashion and each one of those cities for their city ok, so we've got seattle, but I guess you also I mean, you probably would ask if we're talking about is it a county bee county see county d county viser geography of radius around the city that you're interested in? Oh, I would say the whole puget sound area so even down to tacoma upto ever it may be even olympia tab bricks but I know we have readers down that way. Okay, okay, so yeah, you look for concentrations, you know, they're probably some readers all through that region, but maybe there's some enormous concentration compared to the size of the population there is like, wow, I'm making it up, whatever it wow there's so many readers here and there's not that many people whenever it's are you know compared to what we're getting so look for those trends on dh that in should she be looking for those trends on her google analytics to see where people are logging in from right getting a lot of readers currently in toronto okay that center is not funny yeah serrano okay large seattle plus yeah and look you know u s census has a lot of there's a lot of free information online about where people are living and so you can look for that to help you okay looks like we're working bottom up goal you want more readers is that what you're looking for? You know we want more readers spending more time really reading the magazine instead of just looking at pictures okay? Okay and engagement and timing do you have any timing or you around monthly releases or yeah we release our magazine once a month the first of every month first of the month and I would say if there's a lot of the magazines we deal with have a special focus so this is you know, the world's best fashion seattle style or something whatever it is that you're doing if there's some kind of interesting focus that can tell you how you can market or what kind of what kind of tools you can use it might reach you might be able to reach a different group that way. I'm not gonna put you on the spot yet on the budget let's talk about your target is rescuing female we are we actually have a thirty nine percent male reader base right now which is unheard of I was not expecting that but um you know, I would have to say we definitely have a lot more female content but we we don't want to just target women we want to target people who like fashion ok, but that tends to be female. Ok, so female fashionistas female fashionistas age h thirty two is a is pretty at thirty two. So what would be the buying target for thirty to thirty four to thirty nine twenty five to thirty for probably twenty five I think thirty two year old aspire younger and age probably ok speaking as a thirty two year old uh you're only twenty eight that's right? That's right that's right. Okay, fashionistas before when we were saying the day in the life what do you think that your target is doing? Is there anything different or unique about them? Um I would say that, you know, we have we have a lot of stay at home moms that kind of want to get out of that rut, huh that's a sense a homemaker's household there the head of household maybe yeah that's a really interesting opportunity because I think adam was mentioning babycenter you know, and if you look at babycenter it's all baby it's, it's, all pampers and, uh, all those other things, it would be so refreshing to see a message from a non pampers related is yeah, advertiser, yeah, to expire in fashion rented? Yeah, yeah. It's really, you know, thinking about your consumer and again, it's not just going with the grain it's like that woman is a woman, teo and she, you know, is going to leave the house eventually. So we have a writer that right specifically on that subject because we had so many people asking about it. So so that would be a really big way to stand out. I think this goes count, so I'm going to give you a hypothetical budget just to win a sign one to you right now. So let's say her budget is fifty thousand, what we're gonna do next, how are we going to how we're going, how we're going to spend the money, right? What are you going to do? Well, I met my first. I'll tell you what my kind of inclination was before we went through this, which is the events and activations could be very powerful for you, and you're probably already doing that, but to actually show the fashion riel life in a place and invite your custom you know your readers and their friends again if using the stay at home mom version they have friends that are doing the same thing they need a night out on the town how powerful would it be if you kind of brought them out and speaking is a version of that you know, if I have the opportunity to spend money and I'm not with my kids, I do it right there you know right away and I don't look back so there's a real interesting potential to kind of get instant gratification for your readers we have three fashion shows planned for the stairs so that's that's and using those than as media channels almost like tune in so using paid media almost to drive to those events and encourage more people to know about them and if they can't go to learn more about it afterwards to use that in social media another chance I think could be very powerful. I do like to I've heard you mentioned quite a few times people that want to be involved people that are helping you supporting you so activating all of those passionate fans either at the event or through social media channels too I think you've got a sales force that's already starting to come together for you just a passionate people s o creating programs for those zealots and those people that love the magazine something I was thinking about, which we should ask, we were thinking about putting a media event together, where we bring in all these fashion bloggers from the area and kind of tell them what we're doing and try to get them, you know, involved in what they're doing and then write about us. Um, do you think it's smart to it, you know, invite other magazines and the area that we're not really competition, but they may write about fashion, you know, some of the magazines, right about fashion? I actually think that's a very powerful tool because, you know, you're in the same community you're trying to raise awareness of, you know, a magazine, digital magazine usage, and I would hope that they're friendly, friendly bloggers and I absolutely think that's a powerful idea and their tools beyond the bloggers that, you know, there are tools out there to help you identify others. Um and, you know, the blogger network is really interesting that might be a place to go it's a it's, a national network, but they might be able to narrow down and say, ok, these are the people that are like, um, that are like your customers or your audience, yeah, so I think I think in the beginning, it is a very powerful thing. Yeah okay, we've got blogger will be good one and search all just like I said search sir church um fashion is cool because you can use all of those terms you know that whatever the fashion is of the moment or whatever the color of headline or whatever it is you can use that in search and it could be kind of fun we're working on seattle fashion right now if you do seattle fashion magazine were on the first page right? But you know we're competing with seattle magazine has been around for years and you know things like that but at least we've made it to the first page is there but seattle fashion is what we're working towards great so they're you've got kind of a list of things to at least consider and then of course I'm going to add the email in there just really isn't all that sounds and something I need to work on the obviously and look that doesn't cost me anywhere near fifty thousand dollars I can put on an event for free just really quickly people in the chat room really responded to that number they thought it was they were kind of surprised that that was how much of that fifty thousand yeah oh I was just taking a hypothetical number yeah, it was just a number out of the air gets so for people that have a lot less to spend they're just starting out what's do have ah more accurate like guess for sure you're reasonable like for someone just starting out did I scare people e I can say that I do most of these things myself and I would say through getting sponsorships for my events because that would honestly be the most expensive thing with getting sponsorships for my events that public probably cost me five hundred dollars all of those things but I know how to do a lot of that myself I do have a degree in pr so I do know how to do a lot of those those things myself but well I do think that most of those things are just reaching out the partnerships and things like that that you've talked about so you know if you put a couple thousand dollars in and if you're doing an influence her dinner you obviously need the cost of the dinners but I think you can kind of band aid things for a while but I have talked with some of you that you can't do that forever and that's why you need to start figuring out your costs because you know favors and partnerships are all really really good but at a certain point when you're scaling and growing you need to recognize that if you want to get bigger than you need to start figuring out what is it worth to acquire a new customer and is it worth spending and it's hard to spend I know myself it's very hard to spend but I would say, you know, if you had a couple of thousand dollars down here and you use that as a starting place that'd be a good starting place and like like I said, I know how to do some of that because it's something that I've done where I would spend that two thousand dollars on something that I don't know how to do you know? So you know that's something that you said before there's other things that we've talked about that I have no clue how to do it I would pay someone to do that, right? Right sorry to scare everybody no that's uh clarifying that it was just pulled out of the way it was like that. Do you have any thoughts as far as, like a percentage of operating budget to put toe advertising? I mean, I know that that's give us really specific, but yeah, I mean, I will get the airline industry we used to do that and it was certainly a number, but it would be just like adam was saying that you have to have kind of industry reference for your email it's the same thing with budgeting on dh that you can't really make a mass generalization on that it's it's by category so you could probably google ad sales ratios and there's probably I think at age white house some of that stuff, it really varies by industry like toothpaste is mostly marketing less product cost, you know, there's there's lots of things in there that you can think about that's great. Thank you for for sure it was helpful. All right, we can sit right back down. Here we go. Any more questions from our fabulous I guess if I could perhaps a couple of final questions from the internet. Um, we had a couple of people talking about q r codes. I'm not sure we're smiling, but should small business owners entrepreneurs be are they recommended? And maybe we could actually talk about what those are and we might have two different points of view on that. Okay. Okay, great. Would you like to sprout? I'll start. So my point of view on cue, arco and what is a q arco there those little like scannable codes that you'd say scan here for more information? I actually don't think that they're very effective yet that people are not using them and that people are trying to be digitally savvy, so they're putting them in things. And frankly, I think they just get complicated and make things were confusing, but I believe that the actual rate of follow all the way through is low, so I'm not for them yet we are in violent agreement, actually, e uh I they are not being used very well. We've put them in ads based on client request and they don't work so well. I think people just google it and I go yes, um I was working for usa swimming for two years and for the olympic trials we we used q r codes for the event so people will come in and they would scan their their mobile their phone with hugh our code and then it linked him. Tio you know all these all these promotions that they were allowed to use? So I think for some things like I think event based cure codes are worked pretty effectively. I think they put special, exclusive v I p and there's another way to get it. But yeah, well, I was just going to say two things regarding that and it's one of those things, you know, it it's totally dependent upon special circumstances. I have a fashion t shirt companies, you know, and we did q r codes on the back of a shirt for an event and the client was blown away at what they saw because it was it was unique, and it was like one of those things you talked about the first person to you mobile and then I was just a south by southwest and there were q r codes on windows when you're standing in line and people had downtime and so again, a unique place, and I think that I don't have any numbers on that, but I certainly saw some people scanning, so, you know, it probably just depends upon why people should care. I think, for customer passionate audiences like this at the us trials or digitally savvy that already have the q r aps on their phone or unique, you know, I've seen them on cupcakes, you know, there's some interesting things that can be done, but I think mcdonald's just put them on their packaging or something like that, and I'm just not sure why, um, so you really have to think carefully about that that can I ask? We're further into that so something that that I was thinking about doing for subscription base is they have this new thing where, instead of for the digital magazines like mine, you can go the grocery store and it's there next to the stand, and they can go up and scan the cue our code and get the magazine on their phone. Do you think that that's effective are a lot of people? Do they have those on their phone? I mean, I do, but I don't ever use it. You know, like like quarter was saying I don't ever use it so do you think that would be effective? Do you think the people that do have it would go oh I'll use it or do you think a different way would be I think it's worth trying I mean you know, everything is most things are worth trying in some degree and and watch it and whoever is offering that to you say, look, I'm not sure I'm willing to experiment with this if you know especially if you want a case study but um I want to do it for a month and then I'll decide you know, all the side after that and then you can watch what happened oh that's actually great point that a lot of times people will do things with you on a case study basis or a trial basis and so try to push for that because you never know when you can get things for free I was like my middle name should have been barter because I constantly I'm the system way and that a barter right? Yeah, it was like ok, anything that we could do for free so you know, always try yeah, yeah okay, um we have a question online from the rainy day store who I believe sells apparel uh and was wondering if you could do when we're talking about the template for location based ad so can you do a template for location on lee or can you specify by size like petites plus size junior's et cetera? How how sophisticated is the template ing uh technology available? You know, I would have to check on that it's a great question most of it is based on geo or device or or things like that but you know it soon you probably would be able to pull stuff like who is buying, you know, weight loss products or you know, there might be some insights that you can decide that somebody you know if they do this behavior than they're likely to be small sized yeah, I don't know what it would be, but but it probably will be available in the future I don't know that might be it might be available now, but it's not the way we use it, but yeah there's lots of it's another kind of re targeting to some degree of someone's looking for size small of something somewhere else you might be able to retarget based on there on amazon actually sells quite a bit of advertising in that way. We bought for one client people who put things in a shopping cart but didn't buy it just those people and you could now like let's say on facebook and you know we'll talk about this again but you know, if I wanted to target people that only follow other authors I could put in, I want a target. You know, serve up ads just to the people that follow these three authors. So you can get really specific there.