How to Pitch to Bloggers & Launch Products Part 1
So joey came out yesterday he's uh the amazing designer between the sora pot, these beautiful ceramic speakers on some posters which we showed earlier he he's a master of getting press and launching these products on a sort of a boot strapped budget so I thought we could all I'm gonna ask him a bunch of questions and he's gonna he's gonna explain how he launches products and how we can learn from that from that process welcome back are you way were out late last night eating so all right, cool. So I thought let's see let's start I had this lot. So this is you. This is sort of my process. I call it trading up the chain in the book, which is, you know, don't don't pitch national media, start with getting a block press, make sure that writing about you is good for people and then you sort of traded up from there. So like like you were saying yesterday, how reporters you've dealt with a kid's moto are now, you know, gadget journalists at prestigious publications or the fact that you made i...
t on all these gadget blog's caught the interest of national reporters so that's my processes start small and traded up the chain, but I'm I'm wondering, how do you approach? How do you first strategically, how do you think about media and getting press for your projects I think it's always an advantage to get pitched by media as opposed to you pitching media can create that situation the way that I've tried to create in the past is as you've said, it's fine to pitch lower level blog's it's fine to pitch if you have a personal relationship with the blogger even if you just follow them on twitter and they follow you you direct message them that's a good way to get something started you don't ever really want to be in the position at least for the kind of things that I do of pitching the new york times cold right? Especially if you don't know anybody there, they want to be discovering your pro exactly they want to feel like they're doing journalistic work, right? So if you just can saturate a bunch of blog's that these traditional mainstream press journalists read to get story ideas, you won't actually have to pitch them and that's a much if they e mail you saying we're going to do this send some high resolution images that's a way stronger position than you haven't contacted them. And so it's it's sort of about finding out uh the the disproportionate influencers in your space so people always ask me, well, who should I go to it? I don't know because I don't, you know follow wood cutting for a business or for pleasure, but like for books let's say there's a there's a book bog called galley cat, which talks about sort of all industry news uh that that everyone who's, a book buyer, a book publicist, a bookstore manager they all read it. And if you like that's where I announced the deal for my book, they got me a lot of press and that's how you want to think about these things, what is everyone in the industry reading and start with getting impressed there? So walk me through, uh, you launched the water and plant recently. And what else did you launch? So the two most recent touches the self fart and planter and the subwoofer for the sermon speakers so how did how did you approach that launch? What did you do? Well, they're they're two very different products to get from market so the subway forts and did and add on to the strange position. So that was pretty straightforward. I contacted the people who had written about the original speaker system two years ago, and all of them were very interested in the several for because I'd sort of been feeding them hints that it was coming out over the past year, so once I contacted them, it was sort of like the the big reveal, in a way, and they didn't exclusive with gizmodo to be the first one to write about it, but that didn't really turn other people off everyone on his shot at the exclusive of the interesting. This happens more when you're a little bit news where you've established your brand, your company, how do you go, goto one person first and give them that story and say, this is just for you? I'm giving it to you. First you get the photos, I'm going to go out afterwards, but like what I'll say is, hey, we're going to put out a press release about this tuesday, I'm giving you this on monday, you could be the first one to write about it, um, and that sort of creates a sense of urgency around your product launch. They were the first one to write about it rather than are there twenty other people scrambling to get this post up first? Yeah, I mean, it creates a sense of urgency. It also when you tell other equally influential bloggers that they can't write about it until this date, it definitely creates a sense of desirability around the story just because it's create scarcity, so they're going to be more inclined to contact you to get an update on when can you write about this? Is there any new information the planter is a totally new product lines so that had kind of a different launch it was a different market as well so actually started with this block remodel ista which typically doesn't write about my stuff but is very influential in like the house where sort of rustic modern aesthetic and that's the first time they've written about me but it was really uh really compelling story for their readers and as a result I sort of connected with this other segment of customers who I think they are a good candidate and they would be interested in the speakers but they wouldn't have found out about them through gizmo toe or gear patroller these other blog's that have written about it so in a way it's a lower priced item it's a way to get other customers who would normally see my stuff toe so two questions sorry everyone how did you identify them on how did you do how what was your research process life for a new market on what was your pitch to them well to research any market and theresa to the influential kind of just the influential people are in that space I always go toe look att products that I feel like our attracting a similar customer to the customers I want to attract. So for the planter I looked at a couple other designers I was familiar with I went to their press section of their website saw who's writing about them wright, who did the kind of articles that I wanted to be written about my stuff um and then I'd say like for four to five months before the launch, I started following those journalists on twitter once in a while I do it at replied to something that they wrote and it just sort of established a general familiarity with them before pitching them on something so that when it came time to send them images and to say look, I just came out with this, then I wasn't some crazy guy with the self water and plant or being like right about right about me, so I think that's really important, so it's like people like how do you do it? You only have to people how could you get all this press well, it's, because you laid the groundwork for a campaign months and months in advance, which is so different than how most big companies do it, which is they're working and working and working on this product and it like it's done comes out tomorrow let's get a lot of press for it and nobody cares because they haven't put in the time or the dedication toe develop those relationships right enjoy I'm curious if you guys talk about doing all that this pre worked to build to the launch how detail oriented are you can I assume that both of you have like spreadsheets with reporters names their phone numbers, contact information last time yuri stop somehow detail are you with the folks that you want to connect with? I used to a docks usually I also have, like base camp a lot which is thirty seven signals sort of manage so I'll assigned tasks and say like, hey finally twenty people in this space what do you think about them? That's what I'm assigning to my employees high rise is ah great sir cms and contact management system where you can not only include the people's information but you can catalogue your interactions with them over times you could say like I met so and so for lunch yesterday has sent them an email that I sent him a birthday present. You know, whatever you can you're never like what is the last time I talked jane doe like no, I know what that last time I talk to you, but I would say that it's it's not like it's, not this formula and you know you've got a paying all these people it's if it all goes back to genuinely being the my best, most successful product launches have been about things that I was genuinely interested and excited about, and I knew the space because I liked it and I spent time there for fun on dh so I knew like it's a lot easier to develop relationships tweeted back and forth with reporters when it's something you care and know about if you were launching some weird product you know tomorrow if you're having to sell candy or something, it wouldn't work no absolutely I mean I'm a little less organizing ryan is about keeping my contacts and information about them I usually just these gmail labels and I have labels for each type of person who writes about something in each step the space and I could just follow the conversation threads um but I agree I think that you can't really if you try to force interest in an area in order to kind of trick somebody into thinking that you're passionate about something, if it's a product that you really care about and you want to have some longevity it's it's kind of ah, it just takes a lot more work than if you actually care about it and they can tell just by the way that you're talking about it the way that you presented on your own website on I think that it just makes it it's always easier to deal with somebody who's clearly being straightforward and genuine and I think that it just kind of simplifies the process in all ways one, two, three, four I don't want to say one thing real quick, so we use I've reached out to a few like food bloggers in san diego and I use high rise to keep everything and check uh and if you a few people have asked, how do you find the logs if you just google? You know, in my case, I was like, what's a san diego food log, right that a lot of them on the side, like have the other blocks that they follow you look at who comments them if you just spend two hours and look, if you're reading the sites in the space, they all went to each other and you start to get a sense, like, if you're reading all the food boggs in san diego, you're going to see how news breaks and how it travels through the system, and then you're gonna have a good sense of what the best way to do it for your product is another thing that I have is they're all set up on my google reader s so it's really easy to see if for people don't know that's like an r s s reader, which is a great way to just read logs as they as they happen, you enter them all in and you get updates whenever they're updated, so I had a question just relaying tio on tactics of the exclusive so we've done we've tried that as a company so this goes a little bit to the question from yesterday about you throw it over the fence and then it's about box of what's gonna happen so the question is around identifying the right exclusive source because it's by doing exclusive it's inherently aspirational right? So I'm inherently identifying an aspirin aspirational news outlets so just to be really specific you know come last month we launched eleven new sandwiches something we'd never done in the history of the nine and a half years of the company we've got a celebrity chef behind this so we pitched in an exclusive with the few days advance notice did all of the things that we're describing to the new york times because that's what we wanted and that's what we hoped and we thought that by offering the exclusive it would work right and then we never heard back so the question is around howto identify the right exclusive outlet because you wanted to be aspirational but you actually wanted to work with bloggers I actually I don't even have a problem like offering a bunch of them the exclusive like I'll just I'll send like twenty emails saying like hey do you want the exclusive the first one who gets back to me gets the exclusive and then I tell them like, oh crap like so they happen whatever but uh it's it's doing the exclusive thing is something you've gotta have a relationship with that person usually and you're like for me, it's not like some script where I'm sitting it's it's more often like, hey, we're we've got a new bet big ad campaign coming out tomorrow. Are you interested? I'd love to give, you know, explode be exclusive and then when they say yes, then I pitch them rather than like here's the story do you want the exclusive it's a little bit uh, you wantto you want to get them to commit to a little bit first and then don't don't give it away right? Asking if they want the exclusive way I'd say giving exclusive is more strategic and tactical move like I give gives motor the exclusive not because I thought they wouldn't write about me otherwise, but because that's strengthening the relationship I have with them so the next product I launched it'll ensure a large and good review on their site. So it's it's just like something you do for them, showing that you trust them and that they then kind of have the both obligation and less risk looking at what you send them the next time over, how often do you send blotters together? I definitely have a bias towards not sending something less it's really good and I think a lot of people have the opposite bias I mean I only like I said yesterday I come out with two or three new products a year so I on ly really send like a pitch email when those products are ready to be written about so they only get contacted with an e mail like that a few times a year I do keep them updated on what I'm working on but I'm not asking them to do anything think those emails but I mean like products do you send people your speech your ceramic speakers to test it out so they get kind of interested and know the products so well that thing right on their own and not yeah how do you feel about like gifts sh wag that yeah yeah because you have a higher product price point than some right? Yeah absolutely anyone who is relatively influential who wants to see one of my products in person I have no problem sending them one to test out typically the more professional blog's they always send it back just because they don't want they don't want to deal with that people who are on their own or just have a following on a personal blogger on twitter um they want to keep this stuff that's fine I don't present it as a gift but I don't I don't get it back on the way I think about it is like what would it cost? You know, what's your hard costs of that product it's probably cheaper than advertising to use a lot of your shit yeah yeah so if you have a physical product I would definitely say send them out there um I mean, don't send them you know, you can it's very easy to get like, lists of bloggers in your space you do need to pick through that I mean, you don't want your stuff on every block there's something kind of embarrassing blog's that you just don't want people to know you sent them something, so you have to be selective, but if someone influential asked for a product, I would definitely send it I mean, yeah, the cost or not, even like I'm on the list to get people's books like they get they get mailed to me all the time most of them go straight in the trash because it's like, I don't know what you're asking me to read this long ass book from someone I don't know about not going to do that well, that's a good thing never ever send something less they asked because you just don't want to devalue mean someone send you a book is devalued that book it, but it all depends of the product, so let's say, I'm I'm, you know, influential cool person on twitter you somehow get my address through a friend, you said me five hundred dollars ceramic speakers that air beautifully wrapped, and you include a letter explaining what they are that's different than that's, true fedex copy of book with nothing in it and it's like, who is this person? Why are you sending this to me? And what am I supposed to do with it? So I like to think about sending products that people who have some way of paying you back for the product, and they know what to do with it, and it doesn't presentation is everything don't just send them an envelope with that piece of wood in there, you've got to tell them the story, you know, there's got to be a card in there, that's, explaining why and why you picked them. So, like, I send out books for my clients, what I like to do is have the editor write a personal letter it's printed on paper, but they write a letter from the editor explaining why they're excited about this specific book. I don't like the marketing department's at the at the publisher sent out the books because that person is just promoting the editor is someone who put their sweat and blood into the book, and they're telling you like, I don't normally do marketing, but I've decided to be involved in this process and say something of a question, I want to get up if you guys have a thought around going backto exclusivity, talking a lot about blobs and written press, does your perspective change around giving an exclusive to video or news? Uh, well, there's, different kinds of video, obviously, like, uh, I don't think people think enough about youtube, like youtube is the second largest search engine some of these, uh, you know, you do a video that does even twenty thousand views, it probably got seen more times than against moto article, right? So video is huge, some of these people have huge subscriber base is who watched all the videos. So how can you collaborate with local news? Right, right, I'll get there. So I think youtube is a form of video that a lot of people don't think about local news, er, it's, it's, maur vanity than anything else, because, like only old people watch the news and unless you're I mean, it would matter if you're a local restaurant chain or I think even for you, but, you know, when I get I got featured on the news was some city is working and nothing I mean, it's just it. It's funny and people people you know, will see it will be like a saw you on the news, but it's not moving the needle for your speakers, is it? Yeah, definitely not. I mean, the video that's really worked well for me. Um has been interviews with individual people who are already trusted? People are cast shows? Yeah, people, they're really giving their attention to that piece of media when they're consuming it. Like he said, local news people are probably doing something else while it's on even a log post there's like a lot of other stuff on the screen that could distract somebody. But if you're watching like a video, you know you're subscribed what kevin roses video caste or whatever you clearly care about what he's saying, and they're going to listen and you're gonna watch the whole thing so things like that have been the most productive for sales, and I actively seek them out because it's done really well for me, so to go back to the original question, what was your pitch? Teo remodel the step so the pitch to remodel ista wass they were started in at the same time, like a garden section of their blawg, so I wanted to time my pitch to, like, right when that garden section was going to start coming out so it actually ended up being the first post on their garden blawg, and they were looking for content that was new because they didn't want to launch this new section with something that had been covered by another garden or home designed site. Um, so the pitch it was like how I'm really helping you guys by giving you this new thing people are already sort of familiar with my work, but you will differentiate your blogged from the get go, but the first ones to cover this, so I always try to look for, like, how how is my home I doing them a favor and what value my giving them? I never feel like they're just doing me a favor, and I need to be really grateful because then they think that they're doing you a favor and it's no value to them, and you knew that they were going to start that section because you were emailing the guy back and forth or you saw like, a little announcement for it. How did you they've been announcing it on the block and also on twitter esso I specifically referenced the launch of that garden blawg in the final pitch email that I sent, so to get really, really specific what what did you say in your pitch? So something look like what you write, so the subject line because they were probably thinking about the launch of this section at the time I specifically mentioned the garden block I said something like you know congrats on new garden log might find this interesting and then in the email I included a link to the section of my sight with the planter on it I did not include any images I've learned that bloggers really don't like him and his included an email I think they don't write attachments I think I don't know if it's images per se but it's like if they see the email we talked about this system is limited to clip yeah that means this is a pitch and they probably think it's going to be a press release so or a law that's document and it's too if you could include the image like in line a message that's where she was talking like a link to the image exactly yeah yeah linc I've gotten most success having a link to the section on my site because then they see the images they see that it's a legit product it's for sale there's a buyer button right there right um and basically just it was like a three sentence long email congrats on the garden blawg here's something your readers might find compelling and its self watering planter based on ancient variation technique I like what you're saying which is this is this what we're trying to hammer and yesterday which is you're doing them a favor if you do. So I have this quote here. I hate quoting myself, but it's from the it's from the er yes, you're selling something, but they need to buy like they have to get out a certain number of post. They have to launch the blogger with an interesting article in subway. You're delivering that for them and by doing interesting things and approaching them with that interesting thing and hinton and shaping how that story should be. Not too heavy handedly, but just just putting it out there. You're doing them a huge favour. You did eighty seven percent of their job for them. Now, all they have to do is slap a headline like some snark and cash the checks. We have a quick question coming from a from the light audience. This is for joey it's from bf he in granada, spain. So does joey have any ideas of how an artist or photographer would pitch to a blogger since we don't have a product that we can manufacture? Hmm? Well, what would it depends on what your goals are pitching to a blogger. Do you want people to buy your artwork? Do you want commissions? I think that your goal needs to completely determine the kind of press and the kind of pitch that you give um, like I said yesterday, you can't think of press is any sort of validation. You just have to see it as a tool and a means to an end for something. Um, but in general, I'd say get a really nice portfolio up and and linked to the portfolio don't include, like five j pegs of your stuff. One thing I like about your stuff is, you have so many, like, I think bloggers like writing about your products because they get to put huge slide shows of beautiful images or embedded images in the post, and they know that readers don't like to read their life to cock things. How how do you think how you thought about photos you know, rely on them to take their own photos? You provide these photos for the most part, right? Right, right, yeah. Photography and actually product videos huge jj it's basically like writing copy for them. I mean, it just makes their jobs a lot easier, right? I've basically I formatted the pictures on my site based on the way blog's format their pictures so it's really easy tio the size so yeah, the with and everything it's really easy for them to just grab it and put it on their blog's sometimes if they're really lazy, they just linked to the image on my server okay, but that doesn't happen as much anymore on dh same thing with the videos it's just I make it really easy to embed the video in a different post andi, you know that's different than just having all the little chick let's like reddit and tweet this and everything because it's really nor yeah just formatting and in a way that makes it really easy for them to grab it and also you know, I'm just saying if you want high resolution images, just let me know because sometimes you like to do the human and everything it's sort of reducing the barrier of entry of the hurdles to get them to do because they've got an unlimited amount of other things to write about why should they do? Why should they write about joey because it's easy and it looks good and it gets them pages making it easy for for that journalist for that blogger and with a few questions here believed in the audience, but I think I'm gonna get a t shirt made this is don't include five j pegs and no five j pegs right question can I have a kind of technical question? You said that you chose remodel ista because they had featured other products that were sort of like what? You know what what you had and yesterday we talked about reverse engineering that the press so my question sort of from yesterday is how did you actually technically do that? Are you like looking at some analytics of you said you said that three that you were trying to river p other people were trying to reverse engineer something and you said oh, these are the three people that sent the most traffic regarding this particular subject. So are you actually looking at some kind of analytics? Where are you like how are you? How do you know that these are the three sites? That sum I asked next there's some great sights like I like to use what's it called like similar sites and you see that one? Yeah. Like so fine, fine one site that you like and then you can if you google around that site, you confined other sites they leads to that they talk about that's what way to find similar things? What people were doing with my book is going like, okay, this article did like a lot of articles show how many comments they got or have any views so like wow, that was big for you I want that it's it's not super scientific catcher yeah, yeah, I mean, a lot of it is just because my stuff the way people buy it is looking at a picture looking to video I go by kind of steady correspondences and like, what does this aesthetic say about the vertical I'm going for pitching this blogger so remodel lisa, for example, it came down to like pictures of like, linens on like a worn wood table with like, a really shallow depth of field and like those photos were clearly what they like to post whose photography is getting post on that site and I sort of used that visual correspondence as the thing that connected it, but it's basically anything any like since you can get of what thes blog's like to post is very helpful because you can see what they're looking for and make your thing not change your design or your product to appease them but presented in a way that clearly they can digest it of these lice. Popeye you're sort of intuitively more than super technically, I mean, you should just google joey look at all the people who have written about him throughout all the tech ones and that's probably a decent place to start for you and then just go down that rabbit hole what sites does that cycling too much and who were they featuring and you're gonna narrow it down and they're like, well, these are the ten sites for me and I'm gonna pitch them and maybe two will get back to me and now I've got a good start yeah, the more questions right here in the audience just yet something that somebody mission earlier right is after heard a logical consistent questions online but also here is like how do we know which blog's target? I think you made it really clear yesterday that if this is your industry right, you should really know that shouldn't be a question, right? Correct right and it's not to say like what you live and breathe certain products more than others, but you decide you're launching the gardening thing you're going to spend five or six months figuring out? Definitely yeah, yeah, and I mean, I think the most deceptive thing when people are asking about that a lot of the time they're asking which blog's have the most readers and readership numbers is like really not a good guide for he should pitch because it is much more about who the readers are. Are they ready? Tto hear about an act on whatever press you're trying to get and it's it's really it's about the effect that you can achieve from being on the block it's not about how many eyeballs you can get your work in front of so like in the fashion body in space it's not how many readers telling conferences each post get because that's ah better sign of engagement it's not super scientific but to me that that that show there's something there and it's like one of the things that that book authors have sort of discovered is like uh being on a news site begun gives moto is less important than being on tim farriss is blawg single author blog's are better than sort of news websites so treehugger is not going to be as good as kevin roses shop definitely I have a question eso yesterday you said as a product designer your advantages, your unique perspective and a unique perspective typically happens when you're not kind of in this echo chamber of the culture in which the product is going to live so how do you find balancing being coming very like intimate and connected within the community knowing like getting to learn bloggers and that flow without kind of plotting with the product, right? Yeah that's a good good question I definitely don't go toe blog's for inspiration and I think that's basically what I see blog's and press as a tool as much as I see like my pencil and sketch pad is a tool inspiration I go on really long walks I go hiking, I look at the sky whatever but I'm very careful not to draw on current designs for inspiration because you're right, that would completely dry up by any point of view. So a question from the internet, greg d says that hay thinks that this can only be applied to products. I don't see how bloggers can be used so much in promoting a service, and we kind of touched on this a little bit yesterday, but can you explain how this relates to services instead of product? Well, it depends on your service, right? Like if if you're more of like a client service, the best marking to do is deliver really great value to people, and they tell other people and you're thorough based business that's your marketing, you shouldn't be after pr and media, um to the same degree that a product, uh, that a product based businesses that's. Why it's called the section is called how to pitch bloggers and lunch products, but maybe you have something about services. Well, it just depends on how many customers you're trying to get or how many customers your service depends on. So I need to sell pretty large for an independent designer quantities in order to make my business tick so that's, why go after the press I go after if I were doing forty thousand dollars chandeliers? I would go after five people who need to buy those chandeliers I wouldn't be going to gets moto so I think it like ryan said it depends on the service anything it really just depends on how many clients you need to have but very very rarely is oh not very really but I would say that a good portion of pr it's not you get an article about tomorrow you don't sell ten thousand speakers like tomorrow yeah it's this it's it's about introducing people to your product and then over time they buy so it's like you know I get an article I'm quoted in something that's where somewhat hears me that's where they start reading my blawg and then a year later they hired me to consult on a project so media is still a way to sell services and if you're thinking that media impresses a direct response medium like you're misunderstanding how it works that's been a big realization actually I used to depend on press to generate sales and now I look at presas a mechanism of generating followers right and it's my job to then once they're follower I can convert them to a customer over time like you said and I think that's a much healthier relationship I'm here to talk about that a little bit ryan because I think a lot of times and it's a kind of move but we confused conflate that likes retweets followers equal customers and that's not always the case it's that may start the conversation, but you still joe we have to convert where she get that like or that follow you gotta touch these people from multiple points and media is one way to do it. Media is a very effective way to communicate a message on a mood and news but it's look, you're here depending on if you were trying to sell products, the best way to do it is not too go to someone who's objective and ask them to describe your thing for you to a bunch of people you don't know that's not the best way to sell something that's the best way to sort of get certain, uh messages out about your product but that's not the best way to sell the best way to sell is your website of advertisements and things like that media is is a way of communicating marketing messages. Another question just tactically we day versus weekend times of day is like when are you all talking about that? Some people like there's all these social media companies where it's like what's the best time to post twitter messages or, you know what's the best day for the story break none of us are in the position that way have so much press that we get to decide what day it should break on or what, like look, as a general rule, don't launch your product on the fourth of july. I don't don't put something out christmas morning, you know, uh, mike, don't try to compete like with my book, I picked this summer release date because I knew there would be less going on that this sort of general rules of thumb other that I say take press were here wherever you can get it from whoever you should get, you could get it and always be hustling to get it. So another question, because we have a lot of really good coming in if you don't mind. So blair survival says, should I be persistent with bloggers or give up on a specific block after a few tries? Uh, I'd say do not be persistent in terms of emailing them if you haven't heard back from them. Um, in my experience, there's no better way to seem like a desperate amateur, right? I don't know how to save finch twenty times is someone like pitch that one's if it doesn't work, we're talking about I actually I'll go to your question second, but, um, pitch, pitch and then change your approach down the road, follow up, email them about something else, you know, it's it's. Don't do the same thing over and over again and wonder why it's not working, but she had a question yesterday about how you know she launches these things and they don't work out and she doesn't she has trouble sort of figure out what went wrong and how do you learn? Like are you trying different approaches to different reporters? How do you figure out what works for you? Well, I haven't been really scientific about testing different approaches like a b kind of stuff, mainly because I don't have the luxury of failing with press a lot, so I need to get results at the same time is learning things, but what I found is if a blogger or some journalists who I haven't emailed doesn't respond to me, I just sort of write them off and try to get pressed with arrival and so they see it there on dh then in my experience they're much more receptive the next time that's a good point, so one of the best ways to get a second chance at someone is to come back to them. There is one for that you pitch them and then you get press somewhere else and then they see it and then they follow up with you or you make sure that they see that press either by linking looking into it and email tweeting it just sort of you know, I go as far as, you know, send a fake a mill. Hey, did you see this to their tip line or whatever, but you make sure he then they're like, okay, now they're playing catch up there like shit, I had a shot at this and I blew it. Now what now they might come back to you and say, hey, do you have any other photos? You haven't given someone else, right? Can I? Can I do a full product review rather than a news announcement? Yeah, also makes me think a lot, you know, I get pitched quite a bit, and sometimes I'll get the follow up email that's not very kind it's like, hey, I sent that two weeks ago didn't hear back from you what's up, assuming in your communication, you're always kind with this journalist or blogger because you never know when you're gonna need them when things change, but I always think about it, what did I do wrong and that's how I orient myself and speak to the journalists because they're they have the thing that I want, and so if they didn't write about it, it's, because I didn't explain it to them in a way that was attractive to them and it didn't meet their needs, or I didn't do it right yeah, I'd say getting angry at a journalist is like getting angry to customer. You just need to get that emotional stuff out somewhere else and not bring it to the