Mike Mowery on Relationships
We're going to be getting into the topic of relationships we just talked about communication obviously communication ties directly to relationships and we established that already you can't build a relationship with anyone without communications so those two go hand in hand as the first part of this segment because we have guests that are actually working right now like we have people that are calling in their at their jobs we're going to start with my band's manager and a very good friend of mine a mentor in a lot of ways mr mike mallory who is the founder and ceo of outer loop management they manage a bunch of great bands mike is one of the head managers over there as well as being the owner of the company on dh my band has been lucky enough to get some guidance from him I've been lucky enough to work with him because a band happy because of other endeavors and he's just a great guy so I really would like tio introduce mike and we're going to talk about relationships and I got some g...
ood questions for him and I'm sure he has some great stuff for you so he'll be cued up here in a second get myself ready we're actually just still trying to get mike okay if there's does anybody have any questions here before we go forward and we have some questions from the online audience while we get mike schur all right, well, I have ah, uh, as we're waiting for him a big picture question, if you don't mind, um, this is from v drum twenty four, and he says, speaking of skill level and commitment, which is what we talked about so far today, in your opinion, what do you think are the defining qualities, musical skill or personality that successful musicians have versus those that don't make it or give up before they do? Perseverance is huge is really being persistent and not giving up, um, having good communication skills, that's fantastic, um, being self aware and being able to actually really put in the work, I mean, persistence goes with that, but I think you really have to be committed fully, you know? And the most successful musicians or successful business people that I know are fully committed to what they do, and that's, something we're actually talkabout as the last segment today is the commitment to the hard work. Um, but I think those are things that you have to do, and then whatever your talent is, it falls kind of, you know, within that, like you have your talent is your main thing, and then if you work hard at it, if you're persistent and if you're good with others and you can get for that's what we're talking about actually at lunch, I was like, you have to be good at something had to be a good person if you have those things and you work hard, you can succeed, you know, cool. And I think we have mike now, how you doing, dude? I can hear you now. You look in great. You didn't get a haircut. Looks good. I hear you. I hear you. So you in your office right now? Okay, cool. I've sat in that very seat. I know where he is. So he's going to give a brief sort of introduction, tio, how we know each other and our working relationship. So mike started managing periphery back in what, two thousand nine or so? Yeah, about two thousand nine and when I that's when I joined the band and prior to me joining the band had already met with mike on one of our previous band members who actually is not in the band anymore was really the point person with mike and without a lute management, and I sort of being the new guy sort of just took the back seat, I made it known that I could obviously have opinions, and then I was a very talkative guy, but I definitely sort of followed my role in the band of being new guy without really trying to step on anyone's toes or get in the way but over time with, you know, with the other person that was there leaving the band, you know, I was able to sort of step up I think in a lot of ways teo interface with you on a lot of the business aspects of the band, I'm definitely not the only one in the band who does, but, you know, definitely one of the main, I guess point people for mike and his staff to talk with about different things they were doing, but something that that I really want to focus on today, mike is relationships and for you you know what I was saying before is so much of what you do to help your band's happens behind the scenes and you and I have talked about this a bunch there's really even no way to quantify that work or to put a value to that work that you put in, but what I've seen from, like, I mean he's, I'll talk to mike on monday and he's in new york and then on tuesday he's in california, then on wednesday he's in sweden and then on thursday, he's back in the office and on friday, he's gearing up for a trip again to california and he's like, what are you doing these I'm going to see bands going to talk to some friends hang out, but it's really not about just going to hang out it's about the relationships that he's maintaining and that he's building because you never know, I think when you're goingto when two people will line up and say, you know what? We never thought we'd work together we have more together yet, but I'm really glad we know each other because now we can work together would you say that's kind of the reason why you're always going around the world doing stuff you paint the jet setting lifestyle part well, it's a little less frequent than that, but, you know, I think you're exactly correct. You know, in the ten years I've been managing really over the last four or five, I really understood that used to travel for a specific purpose meaning let's say, peripheries headlining show in los angeles, I'm going to be in los angeles interacting with all people that are there for the periphery show, but what I realized wass as much as that's important, it was tangential people I was meeting at the show that were then I'm staying in touch with and it wasn't like media I was going to benefit from keeping a touch of said person, but we developed a really shit like you said and you know, I have the ability and desire connected people because that's the type of person I am enjoying it for the sake of the iraqi people have to get you just understand and their perspective, what they're doing, what the benefit is a, you know, french actual, respected business relationship eventually, hey, off down the line, yeah, absolutely, absolutely. And, you know, I think one of the things that were really trying to get across in this segment of the class is howto build those relationships and the importance of building those relationships and look, I mean, as a manager, you work with all sorts of different bands, you know, different levels, you know, different parts of their career timeline for you. What do you consider a good relationship? What do you consider a bad relationship? What would be some advice to give to the people watching tio maybe set them on the right path to establishing good relationships? What would be some of those things you would say? Well, I think, you know, you're trying to get us and sort of get a gut when you interact with someone, whether they view things in a similar way, you d'oh or not, and I really tried to align myself with people who want to speak with them were kind of saying back things that I might say to myself are having a conversation with myself no I don't want to have relationships with people who are identical to me why do you align myself with people who you know think similar away now there are gonna be people that you know for the and more importantly my band's my companies that I don't see your facts in a way that I do and that you know something that you have teo to navigate as well I think you know bad relationships are ones where someone is trying to manipulate you or someone is trying to on ly do something for their benefit without understanding that as in any relationship there's give and take absolutely absolutely so for someone then or for a band or whether it's ah let me rephrase that for someone who's a working musician or trying to get into the business whether they're songwriter whether they're in a band and they're learning how to even have internal relationships with each other as a manager you know I've seen you have to step in as a mediator are there things that you would suggest a ce faras communication goes or making sure that there are like you no good I guess um what's the word I'm looking for almost like good strategies internally with a band too foster that good relationship you know like what? What things do you see that would be good for that yeah, I think that's that's a very perceptive question to ask and you know, when you're killing with a band, you know, take periphery for instance with six members they're six very different and unique personalities and in that case six very strong I'll say successive periphery is that you've got strong personalities that said, I think you have to be able to put yourself in the shoes off the other person or other people that you are negotiating with or building a relationship internally with, which is a very hard thing to do and as do it war, you get more experience with it and it becomes easier to do you know, you and I talked with something just yesterday where we had put ourselves in someone else's shoes who realized they were trying to do something delicious they were just trying, you know, to do what they thought they were doing once we put ourselves in that person's shoes, we always come to you and agreement on how forward and the other thing that I see, especially with your band and even your manager's young agents is people are really afraid of conference, you know, they're afraid of offending someone or saying the wrong thing and one of the things that I've really got a good job or try to do a good job is hitting that head on if I don't, you know if if there is inevitable confrontation, I think it's worth speaking about and there's various ways to go about you go back, you know, with the intention of I'm gonna punch this confrontation head on as hard as I can and as you imagine, it becomes very exclusive or you can approach it from a very you know, you take that first strategy, let me put myself in that person's shoes let me roll all my own to say if I were in her shoes, how would I react and go in with a little bit of empathy and, you know, that's a challenge if you got to do that with five different people just to maintain a van, you can see while I'm off times there's that inner conflict that just people are mature enough to be resolved now I'm fortunate that I've been through a lot of experience is unlike a lot of experiences with bands, so I've got that perspective, but I think it's just starting out with those two approaches, which is again put yourself in another person's shoes, a little bit of apathy and then don't be afraid, tio tackle confrontation, but just do it with in a respectful manner sure, sure, and I think you've seen with periphery and some of the other bands you work with, I know you've seen both sides of that, you know, you've seen internal conflicts that are very crazy, and some like yesterday that could be resolved with a simple conversation, everybody just getting on the same page, and I think you had a great point in that empathy is very important in any type of business, I think, you know, if you're if you're if you're trying to do business with people, you have to understand what their role is, where they're coming from, you know, kind of how they fit into what you're doing and how you fit into what they're doing. In a lot of times, I think we find that, you know, we probably don't mean anything to a lot of people that we want to do business with, and then we have to sort of look at that and figure out how we can help, you know, help them achieve their goals or help to make things easier for them. And I know from talking to you, I mean, you have great relationships with other industry people, you know, how do you go about building those relationships? I mean, is it as simple as, you know, just hanging out with them, or is it a simple, as as you said, it having that confrontation to get to a point where you do have a good relationship because I know there's business people you work with that you do butt heads and it's not always easy so how do you manage the industry relationships so that you can maintain a reputation I think that you want and also that you can provide great opportunities for your bands and your artists like how do you do that compartment how I just not even in reverse to just relationships but as a whole is I the financial benefits immediate financial benefit out of everything and I think that's a little bit different than a lot of old and some people that have interacted with your immediate thought is okay how can I go in and as it immediately or within the very short term I usually take a very long approach and say look, you know, it isn't about whether you know I could get a band on their tools or that makes said money and therefore my company makes money off of that I look at it is how could you be in business for the next five and fifteen, twenty years? And you know what it calls to the bloody heads component which inevitably there's many, many different personalities within the industry just is there's many, many personalities within, you know, respected bands I think it's about, you know again being empathetic but simultaneously being able to admit when you've done something wrong or you've pushed it past the limit that that should have been pushed past I mean, you know, on the level of business that I'm doing within the industry I'm very busy all of us are busy we've gotta work with a lot of different things in order to make the money that's capable of running your companies and, you know, providing living's for a respected families and there's times that you know, you know we're almost in a twenty four hour business you know, you see you and I will email seven in the morning we'll you know, email again at midnight and in that time but yet during you know, in that time many, many things can go on and you know, I've found and this goes back to relationships and I think that this is really important, especially as we're talking to you know, people that are new into the business whether they be bands or managers or agents or labels name it is phone communication and in person communication are vastly vastly different than email and text communication email predominantly could get a point across it's a nice way to just send information out, but if you wanna have a conversation and we did again to go back to periphery, we did a really good job of taking a lot of things really important decisions away from email and bringing them into a conference call environment so the inflection and our voices was interpreted the right way you know you could say one thing and you're sitting there with a smile on your face but the text of it when I read it says, well, why mad angry and then when we get on the phone or you know you sure spencer or anyone and that's what I really found in these confrontational bids I've had to learn two things one it's okay to apologize I've been wrong I've done things that are wrong I've crossed lines have said things that are hurtful I've taken personal stabs at people when I shouldn't have and I've had a backup and say, you know what? I could admit that that wasn't the right way to approach it and apologies go a long way and it goes to my people have done that to me and when they come and apologize it's really important and the other thing is sometimes noticing when email is just gonna continue to allow a situation to boil and overflow when just find the way to get on the phone and say, hey let's both figure out how we're approaching this and how to reach a solution that's a lot of what communication and relationships are is how can we work together to mutually benefit that's really very important key in relationships to bay is how can you know, for a free and our group is a good example. How can we benefit together, you know, ban happy and my client and or my company? How can we work together? Not how can I take advantage of you? Not how could you take advantage of may? How can we were together to benefit our respective companies and my respected clients, you know, get a bit stability, that's possible? Definitely. And I think something to go along with that is, you know, I've noticed that as you and I have grown tighter as friends and as you know, business partners, so to speak. You know, I think the amount of work that we both put in is very telling, um, to how much we actually wanted to vote time to each other, and I think that's something that could be expressed, like with a lot of different relationships, if you saw me just kind of messing around and not taking things seriously, you probably wouldn't want to e mail me at midnight or seven a m to talk about the business that we're doing. You probably would not waste your time and vice versa. You know, if I saw that you weren't working hard or what you do, I wouldn't have wanted you to contribute to a class like this, for example, because I think it's it's all about the persistence, the hard work, the commitment, and then the relationships and how you handle those relationships and one of the things that I really think is important, and you touched on it. Two things is the mutually beneficial thing. I mean, relationships that you build in this industry always need to look at it from that side. How can it mutually benefit me or my company and the other party that we're working with? How do we make it? So everybody is happy and that when we were together, we're all working together for the common goal, and two you need to be able to not communicate intense topics or conversations through a text message or through an e mail you have to get on the phone, and I said this earlier go out and start talking, go talk to people, have a real conversation, call someone, get used to doing that because conversations with our friends and family can la times be easy conversations in business? A lot of times you got to be a great listener, you have to communicate your point, and if you're in an intense conversation, you really have to you know not be defensive and not be angry you have to figure out how to get your point across even in an intense situation I think for you I've seen you really keep your cool in a lot of situations where other people may fly off the handle and I think that's really important so I've also c I've seen you get mad too fair enough and I think a lot of ties back to you you know the fact that you mentioned my travel schedule and a huge component of that is you know in person not necessarily you know there's times that again you know I need to go see for free play live or need to go visit your label and you know, discuss a marketing plan but it's really about spending time with people and you know from my perspective it's there's people that I like in this business I'm not I don't have to be best friends with them I like them I like the way they do business I want to help them out I want to if their managers helped their bands and take them on tours if their label signed my bands to their labels because those air the interactions that you know like you said you thrive on you see the hunger you see the persistent you see working for the mutual benefit off one another and that's where a lot of that in person communication really goes along definitely now I know you have some other commitments, so I don't want to keep you too long I know you got a role, but I just have to two questions that I wanted you to touch me if you have time one is you know, what do you look for in a young artist or a young band that would attract you to want to start managing them? That's the first question, so we'll start there and then if we could get the second one, we will yeah, I mean there's so there's, so many things in our whole honesty and often times I need to be able to see some sort of spark in them, you know, whether it be a musical spark, whether it be star power in the front man spark sometimes it's just a personality, I like a personality in the band and think that okay, I've seen this and have worked with people like this, and I think that if I get in there and coach them because sometimes that's what management is doing, especially on the really developmental level, they can grow along with me and listen to me in that regard I don't need to be all controlling, but I do want people to be able to absorb a lot of the knowledge that I've picked up through the experiences you know that I have you know, there's other things that are really contributing factors to me have they done some things on their own, you know, you go in and getting out there and doing it on your own and doing a tour or recording music without thinking that the world owes me something because I did a demo in my basement is really valuable experience, you know, so there's a number of things, but those were those were some of the few that that really helped me determined at an early stage whether I want to follow something or not. And then what about that that's great that's, great stuff. What about people that would want a potentially manage bands or get into the industry side like for you? You know, how did you get into it and is their recommendations that you would give anybody who isn't necessarily a active musician but really wants to get into the business side? Yeah, I mean, I was sort of fortunate I had a really good friend in a metal band called darkest hour that was doing oz fest in two thousand four, but the reason that they looked maybe was I had some experience in and of myself, I had been out as a tour manager and you find oftentimes a lot of managers, especially the successful ones, have done something else in the business or works at a management company you know, one of the things that a lot of management companies do is they provide internships and you know, in terms come in and you know, they do valuable work that you know, companies need to have done and that's where they start to form that relationship I've been very proud that over the probably, you know, twenty plus interns we've had I would say at least thirty to forty percent have gone onto viable other work within the industry's we've got people at major labels we've got people that are managing producers and bands in enough their send off but it's, you know to me you've gotta have that home or in that determination and understand that you know, management is very entrepreneurial and in that sense, you know, it's not a nine to five job you know, us talking about emailing at seven and emailing it we don't do those to each other at every single day but more days that not we are up and around and available and thinking about how we can grow our our respective companies and, you know, provide especially in my case provide for my clients, so I think, you know, again getting in somewhere in the business is getting your feet wet you know, some of the best managers I know well and our people some of the best managers I know we're actually attorneys they had some experience and been ableto look I mean some people were tormented there's a lot of great managers were tour managers and those are the experiences that kind of just give you the ability to relate to not only bands but other people in the industry south that's great do you have a second just to take a couple questions if there are any yeah no problem okay mother in here yeah um thank you much mike for taking the time this is awesome and just real quick I wanted to say that email versus live talk thing is so big my emails all the time and it's amazing how many things get lost in translation and the second we get on a video chatter a phone call it's like oh that so totally so I actually wanted to ask an interesting question in your opinion what do you think makes matt stand out to you in a from like a business sense of musicians sense like I don't know I feel like you might not be doing cool teaching skype sessions with all your client's maybe I feel like he's just kind of a cool thing that he's doing how does he stand out in your eyes I didn't ask him to ask us by the way now it's all good I mean I think you know matt and right as I came on he was touching on some of the things that you know that draw me to him, if he is a persistent hard worker, but he also has ah, great ability to really be passionate about what he is working on, whether it be periphery or whether it be banned happy and I know his time is often pulled in between the two because, you know, or his drone clinics or whatever, but part of the reason that he examples that that is he's able to compartmentalize each one, understand how they interact with one another. And when he's focusing on each respective one, give his undivided attention to it and push it to you know, the one hundred and ten percentile, you know, that's a unique guy, but he's got characteristics that I think a lot of people can develop and aspire to, you know, he's, also charismatic, can't really be taught, but the more you get out there or you talk to people, the more that ability to draw them out of yourself exists. So hopefully that answers the question I'm blushing. Thank you. Yeah, yeah way have a question over here from I have a question for you might be curious, you mentioned the spark and you needed to be able to see that spark in a band or it's like a personality that's attractive where do you guys like you? End up scene that is that I mean are people sending your demo tapes or where do you find is it some someone your buddies that says, hey, you got a check out for a really good where do you find that I mean there's there's such a breath of ways that we find music and sometimes it's you know I've got a number of people on my staff that are I mean that's part of their job description is be cognizant of what new music is coming out and so you know they're paying attention to message boards and you know youtube or whatever way that they're finding it they'll then deliver it back to a you know, as my career's continued to grow and develop the relationships that matt's talking about, I'll have booking agents call me and say hey, have you heard of this band? I'll have labels call and say, you know what? We're going to sign this band we want a good manager in place we think it fits with you and that so the recommendations come a number of ways and then we have to suss out or I have to suss out along with the other members of my company okay do they have that that spark you know and there's a there's a lot of bands out there I mean it's very flat world in terms of, you know, like I said, if the three of us met at you and I wanted to start a band right now and record we'd have the ability to do so and we could put it on youtube and it could either go viral or it could get lost forever or it could sit somewhere in the middle and you know I've got to I'm sort of a betting man in a weird way and I want to bet on a horse that I see a little bit of spark in you on dh that's some of the ways that we find the stuff in order teo vet it if you will so what just one follow up question that was a great answer is there other specific places that bands comm place themselves like you mentioned youtube are there specific places beyond like high level and our people and people that are already your friends like are there yeah I mean I think a huge part of it is you know you have to want to work and timing is everything you know in this business I worked with a lot of bands and develop a lot of bands and let's say I was developing a band that I thought made sense you know to fit with periphery fans and they came to me with three demos and I thought that the demos for great and for free was going out on tour I wouldn't necessary to turn around and say hey periphery you gotta check out this band right now here it is I would encourage the band to develop a little further let's get something out there that's a little bit more polished and you know, ready for periphery to take seriously and I think that's an error where a lot of bands have I you know, you mentioned do we get demo submissions I get, you know, hundreds of e mails throughout a year of check out my band here's our blank and there's just there's not really much to it, you know, because in all honesty there's not just don't have that much going on, they have it put a good video together and promoted to themselves and had anything go on with it and then where the rial problem is in my mind it's just one e mail and that's it and it's dead I mean, you know, for a guy like me that gets two hundred fifty two, five hundred emails a day and I've been focusing on my client's the chances of me really paying attention to something it email may once and don't follow it up with a phone call or followed up with anything else are slim to none persistence, persistence but like in timing is everything right? You contacted me when you have nothing going on your persistence, border lines on annoyance and so you've gotta have something going on and you know, listen, I don't consider myself you know, the a level of managers I think I'm very good at what I do and I'm very proud of what I've done but, you know, take a baby step five and someone else who might know me there's plenty of local venues in my area maybe try to figure out how to play that venue and impressed the you know, the the guy at the venue who then is like, oh, I need to turn around and tell our that this band exists if you live on the other side of the country, you know, obviously that that isn't as easy but maybe there's a management company in on your side of the country and you can get in and plant that you mean that's just one example of take a baby step prior to trying to go on garner the attention off somebody has probably got a number of things ahead of you in terms of that we're looking at yeah, real quick just a quick story. So teo, go along with this. I did a drum clinic in again new jersey's um at a place called russo music and the guy who was there working setting up the drums everybody was just the coolest dude name is wills and he's the coolest dude and you don't even know he had abandoned and tell me he just, like, did his thing. He was like, so nice, so helpful, and then about a year later, we sort of kept in touch. A year later, he calls me he's like, hey, man, can I can I ask your advice on something? Can I talk to you? And I was like, sure, because he was just a great guy and I was, like, what's up man, anything, and he was just like, well, I have a band, I was like, you do awesome hey was like, yeah, this band, we just booked our own west coast tour, we did a tour by ourselves, who sold march, we had like, fifty to a hundred people coming out in these areas we never been to, and we just need to know how to get to the next step and like the fact that he put in that hard work and the band put in that hard work and that he was such a cool guy just inspired me, it may, it was just, like, so impressive I called mallory and I was like, dude, I don't know if this band's going to be your cup of tea. I don't know if it's your thing, but you should just talk to this guy. And just because this guy wills was so cool to me and my johnson and j people ve and then one day we met him didn't push anything once was just cool now you're managing is bad so you know that's how things can happen and timing is everything he had no idea that a year later I had no idea your later that I would be connecting two people but that is the type of thing that I think is important when you're talking about relationships is you need to be good and cool with everybody you meet because you never know when to relationships are going turn into three and so forth and when things were just going to keep growing and growing and growing just based off of one instance you know and I think that you've done gives on that for me too with that happy and say hey, I think you should talk to this person have a conversation it's worth it you know and that's how things happen that develop business or or develop a position or get a band from d I y completely to now having management more opportunities you know, your realism and I think you know the relationship part was matt had sort of vetted the guy and mats recommendation alone probably wouldn't have been enough although it put it to the front of consideration but the fact that the band had done all of these other things they gone out but they said they'd taken the baby steps they booked their own tour they had material that was actually adequate and I need to be listen to I think they'd even done a self release you know that that's exactly what we're talking about it's it's the relationship that you had with me that you pay more attention to it and oddly enough timing was pretty interesting because it was actually over the holidays when I wasn't paying attention to a lot of the other stuff and was able tio take the time to listen to it right when you send it so it is sort of funny the way all well that ties together definitely doubly but look as you can see I mean the way things happened it's all based around positive and mutually beneficial relationship so I don't get anything out of that kind of pass along of will's meeting being like other than I'm just happy to see somebody working hard meet another person that's working hard and there's a great relationship and who knows of any thing lever come come of it and maybe they'll be the biggest man in the world maybe they won't but two great parties met and I have a strong belief that in those situations more great things can happen that if you have a kind of crappy group meeting with a great group it's just imbalance but when you have that you know good and and I think that's a really good point, you know, in terms of, you know, you do not directly benefiting from anything involved in connecting us because that sort of goes back to the point that I was trying to make about good relationships versus bad relationships in half. Does it benefit me, or how does it immediately benefit me? You understand that? Look, I'm not getting any direct financial benefit out of introducing these two parties, but you do understand that that continues in foster's our relationship, I want to continue to feed you business in whatever capacity and I don't go to you and say, I need x, y and z in order to continue to introduce you to people you know, I'm not saying, you know, there are there are referrals within a business where people do get, you know, some portion of that referral, and I'm not saying that that's wrong, I'm just saying, our understanding is let's work with one another let's develop that things and let's not really concern ourselves with, you know, how does it directly put money in our pockets? Let's concern ourselves with how does it help each other grow? Our business is over the next five, ten fifteen, yeah, and I think it's circles back to the comment I made before about communication and relations we're on the same team, we have the same goals in mind. We are in business together in other ways, but if you have a band that is doing great for your management company and that's going to be great for periphery in my relationship with you, it all works together, and I think that the lesson there is to look att a cz mike said, be empathetic, teo, to the relationships you're building and with the relationships you're building, look at who you're talking to, what they do, and if there's some way that you can even the slightest help them and it's an easy thing for you to do, even if it doesn't benefit you to it just it's so it's, so easy and it's so fruitful if, just as you said, like you main, I'm not getting any money out of that, but you may come across something that would be great for me, and you're going to think to call me and you're going to say, you know what? I got to call that just because we communicate so so well together, and this is just one relationship that I had that mike has and there's so many others that we both have, that we continue to work at in this matter, and I think that's the lesson here. You can do that with my band mates too you know if I can introduce my bass player who's who's working harder being a producer to creative live and he can come to a production class I don't benefit from that but it's great for him it's great for the band is great for the company is great people working together and that's what you need to do if there's any way that you can connect good people with good people and make good things happen then you should do it and that's that's stuff I'll talk about it as part of the rest of the segment but I mean really that's it so is there anything else that you wanted to add in regard to relationship building or, you know, people wanting to get involved with the music industry before we wrap? No, honestly, I think we've done a pretty good job of covering it. Um you know, thanks thanks for having me it's been a pleasure. I love doing you know, any educational component I can because I think people like you and may were goal is teo to better the industry itself. I think the more we can educate people, the more we could deal with educated people which honestly makes the industry a better place, so thanks for doing it and thanks to creative life for having me and you so awesome, yeah, thanks, mike, allah, I'm sure I'll talk to you tonight around midnight. It's hit some point later, but no thanks for coming, man. It's, always it's, always great talking to you. I'm just really glad that we were able to have some people that may not have known you as well get to know you and get some really solid advice from someone who is very experienced and very good at what they do. So thank you very much for being willing to give back and let your time. I know you're super busy, so no problem. We appreciate it, you got it. I'll make a note. I talk to you soon. Thank you.